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Re: Suggestions

Postby Jarlhen » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:22 pm

Wait, does the PCs not have control over the pricing of goods in their shop? Didn't they use to? If not, that's an absolutely massive oversight and should really be addressed. I've always been under the impression that they had this power. If that's the case I'll have to re-assess my stance on product AHs. It seems like such a basic action I've just always assumed it was how it worked.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby tehkory » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:29 pm

Songweaver wrote:ETA: The only differences between a shop and the auction house are a) players set the prices and perimeters for their goods for sale at the auction house, b) no vNPC sales for auction houses, and c) any player (theoretically) can sell through the auction house without needing to go through the Lodge or some other faction. In short, the "auction house", is just a shop that gives full power to the people.

And, D., traditionally acts as a further coin sink to the economy by taking a small(ten percent?) share of your money, and E., generally allows players to track what other players are buying/selling(as every auctioned off item created a board-listing involved the whos, the what, and the cost). All of these are Good Things.

And then there was the reverse auction house(solely in Parallel, maybe?) which was p. cool, too.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Mon Apr 27, 2015 3:27 pm

Jarlhen wrote:Wait, does the PCs not have control over the pricing of goods in their shop? Didn't they use to? If not, that's an absolutely massive oversight and should really be addressed. I've always been under the impression that they had this power. If that's the case I'll have to re-assess my stance on product AHs. It seems like such a basic action I've just always assumed it was how it worked.


People can, and have very much been modifying the prices on goods in all of the shops for sale, save perhaps for smaller optional/dress items. Otherwise everyone would be paying at minimum 3 cp per metal-tipped arrow, around 200 cp for an unhoned bog iron sword, or over 300 for a segmented leather hauberk.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Songweaver » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:32 am

PCs can adjust the price modifier for their entire shop in the current system, but they are simply modifying the prices that the code sets on the backend with across-the-board multiplication.

An Auction House version of a shop has all of the benefits I've listed, Kory's listed, and allows players to 100% control the prices of what they sell for each singular item. IMO, the Auction House was probably the best economical improvement that we made in our redesigning of the engine for Atonement -- even moreso than the additions made to object variables.

You can even set up multiple Auction Houses, make them look like shops, and not have to do much to change the appearance of the market in Utterby. They're simply a superior version of a shop that puts more economical control into the hands of the players.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Frigga » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:18 am

PCs who run a shop (or are clanned with the privs to do so in a clan shop) can set singular prices on items via the mark command. Not just adjust the modifier.

And, yes, we are looking towards a publicly available/usable auction house. :D

Let's try that before rushing into all shops being AHs. As that model doesn't necessarily work RP wise or functionally for all types of shops (you don't really bid on dinner or a beer, for example.)

However the idea of a AH component to appropriate shops and adjusting town vNPC sales accordingly is something I'm happy to ponder. But let's get some time and data in first. As imagining how something might work and how it actually works out can be a bit different.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Jarlhen » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:18 pm

So, in regards to AHs. Prices can be set in shops. People can see what people are selling things for by doing market research, i.e. walking to shops and looking/talking to people. Money can be taken out of the economy by applying taxes to sales. VNPC sales can be altered in shops. In other words, the only "benefit" with a standard AH is that unaffiliated players who do not have a shop/stall and can't/don't want to sell in person to other PCs are able to flog their old boots.

I'm certainly not saying it shouldn't be tested. But I still fail to see the point beyond a commodities exchange. I look forward to seeing it implemented though, look forward to seeing if it has a positive effect on the economy. Hopefully it does.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:55 pm

Best part about the auction system was you could set it up so it's just like a regular shop. Either item costs X or you can set up an auction.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby MrT2G » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:04 pm

To be honest, I don't think it particularly matters how it is done but Utterby needs equipment readily available for new characters to buy/otherwise equip themselves with.

Similarly, there needs to be opportunities for new characters to pursue that will immediately allow them to begin to progress and develop their character.

No one is going to play long if all they can do is idle in the Inn in their newb gear for the days/weeks it takes to order equipment and/or find a clan leader.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Icarus » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:07 pm

How do the orcs manage it?
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Re: Suggestions

Postby MrT2G » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:20 pm

Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:49 pm

MrT2G wrote:To be honest, I don't think it particularly matters how it is done but Utterby needs equipment readily available for new characters to buy/otherwise equip themselves with.

Similarly, there needs to be opportunities for new characters to pursue that will immediately allow them to begin to progress and develop their character.

No one is going to play long if all they can do is idle in the Inn in their newb gear for the days/weeks it takes to order equipment and/or find a clan leader.


Unfortunately, an auction house is not going to fix the armor or weapon issue for new players. And there's a simple reason for that.

Problem is, there are only so many people able to craft said gear, and craft timers take a fair amount of time to get everything made.

Weapons take a rl day and a half each(minimum) timer wise and that's if said crafter devoted only his/her time to making said weapon alone. This doesn't include the time it takes to actually make the ingot necessary for such. And that's including having the timer reduction based on skill.

Weapons -would- probably be about a -lot- faster if there was demand for anything but the absolute best, but so far there hasn't been a single person I've seen in game who didn't immediately want an oquality honed iron weapon the instant they leave chargen. That crap takes time, yo. If you don't want to wait maybe lower your standards a bit, or be prepared to wait.

Armor too has the same issue, with oiled leather taking at least 20-26 hours for a full suit depending on timers alone, and that's not including the time it takes for hides to brine/tan or the time/cost of oil. Maille is even worse with timers, taking roughly 75 hours to complete a full suit from scratch.

If you have only one new player coming along every 2 days, then that's fine, cool. Things would be kept up to pace with little difficulty. But new players rarely come in single digits. Often they come in waves of 2 or 3 or sometimes more. Sometimes it isn't just new players wanting gear and older players either want an upgrade, or they want a new weapon just because.

When this happens, -somebody- is going to have to wait. Period. There's no getting around this fact, and an auction house won't make it happen any faster.

Now, I'm not saying an auction house is a bad idea by -any- means. This will provide an outlet for independent crafters to start up without all the fuss of needing to join the Lodge or setting up connections for sales. Which is a -good- thing. More people would probably play a crafter role if they weren't almost forced to join the Lodge to make a living wage.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:50 pm

MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.


I also imagine a hefty amount of recycling arms/armor from the deceased, something that's strictly frowned upon on human sphere. That, and orcs haven't had much problem with getting weapons from humans as is. :lol:
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Re: Suggestions

Postby MrT2G » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:37 pm

Mithrandur wrote:Weapons -would- probably be about a -lot- faster if there was demand for anything but the absolute best, but so far there hasn't been a single person I've seen in game who didn't immediately want an oquality honed iron weapon the instant they leave chargen. That crap takes time, yo. If you don't want to wait maybe lower your standards a bit, or be prepared to wait.


This is the newbie market. However, a decent weapon is worthless without armor. Weapons can be found in stores last I saw. Armor, of -any- variety or quality could not. Actually, I am wrong. There were coifs somewhere.

Orcs have a large advantage in this. All new characters come in clanned to the single clan and with this clanning get access to abundant equipment, crafting materials, and other resources. Orcs share all these things hence they are communist in essence. Add oppressive strong-arm leaders and you have a fascist communist society. Players beware.

In the human sphere, you arrive IG with no clanning and hence get no access to any resources of any kind. Some, but not most, materials can be bought from shops. Some equipment, but again not most, can be bought from shops.

To access for most of these things requires meeting the requirements of joining one of the clans and even more importantly, finding someone who has the authority to recruit. Because of this, having active or more numerous leadership is more important in the human sphere.

A possible solution to fix the equipment problem could be to set up an Utterby donation center of sorts; think Goodwill with swords, spears, armor, and tools for new arrivals. Maybe a shop without vNPC sales with prices at some percentage of actual value. Maybe this shop could be supplied from the materials recovered from the dead along with donations from the community. Proceeds could be used to benefit the Infirmary or otherwise re-invested into the community. Corruption is possible but it would be interesting roleplay to investigate, expose, and punish such wrong-doings. Sounds like the perfect thing for a joint venture between the Infirmary and Merchant Guard.

I particularly like this idea because it would give new players a one stop shop for their needs. Making their integration into the game easier and quicker. Whether or not this would actually fix the lack of even basic leathers for new characters is another question. It is also created, ran, and supervised IG which means it will only generate more roleplay.

The other shops could still sell the more valuable and sought after higher quality armors, weapons, and materials.

An easier solution be would to make all this stuff available in the final shop in character generation; basic leathers, low-grade spangen helms, mid to low grade weapons, and most if not all crafting tools. This would allow new characters to spend their starter coin to come IG reasonably equiped if they choose too. This, however, could close off one of the sources of new coinage. It is also lame and wouldn't create any roleplay. :mrgreen:
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:26 pm

MrT2G wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:Weapons -would- probably be about a -lot- faster if there was demand for anything but the absolute best, but so far there hasn't been a single person I've seen in game who didn't immediately want an oquality honed iron weapon the instant they leave chargen. That crap takes time, yo. If you don't want to wait maybe lower your standards a bit, or be prepared to wait.


This is the newbie market. However, a decent weapon is worthless without armor. Weapons can be found in stores last I saw. Armor, of -any- variety or quality could not. Actually, I am wrong. There were coifs somewhere.

Orcs have a large advantage in this. All new characters come in clanned to the single clan and with this clanning get access to abundant equipment, crafting materials, and other resources. Orcs share all these things hence they are communist in essence. Add oppressive strong-arm leaders and you have a fascist communist society. Players beware.

In the human sphere, you arrive IG with no clanning and hence get no access to any resources of any kind. Some, but not most, materials can be bought from shops. Some equipment, but again not most, can be bought from shops.

To access for most of these things requires meeting the requirements of joining one of the clans and even more importantly, finding someone who has the authority to recruit. Because of this, having active or more numerous leadership is more important in the human sphere.

A possible solution to fix the equipment problem could be to set up an Utterby donation center of sorts; think Goodwill with swords, spears, armor, and tools for new arrivals. Maybe a shop without vNPC sales with prices at some percentage of actual value. Maybe this shop could be supplied from the materials recovered from the dead along with donations from the community. Proceeds could be used to benefit the Infirmary or otherwise re-invested into the community. Corruption is possible but it would be interesting roleplay to investigate, expose, and punish such wrong-doings. Sounds like the perfect thing for a joint venture between the Infirmary and Merchant Guard.

I particularly like this idea because it would give new players a one stop shop for their needs. Making their integration into the game easier and quicker. Whether or not this would actually fix the lack of even basic leathers for new characters is another question. It is also created, ran, and supervised IG which means it will only generate more roleplay.

The other shops could still sell the more valuable and sought after higher quality armors, weapons, and materials.

An easier solution be would to make all this stuff available in the final shop in character generation; basic leathers, low-grade spangen helms, mid to low grade weapons, and most if not all crafting tools. This would allow new characters to spend their starter coin to come IG reasonably equiped if they choose too. This, however, could close off one of the sources of new coinage. It is also lame and wouldn't create any roleplay. :mrgreen:



Actually, allowing players to buy at the very least basic leathers wouldn't be a bad idea in chargen. As is it's already a bit hard to come to terms that everyone comes in with the exact same coif and gambeson or cloak. Some players would be expected to differ in their choices. I think old ARPI/PRPI had the right of it when they allowed you a certain amount of coin to buy weapons -or- tools instead of just giving you the absolute basic necessities. If someone wants to spend all their cash on just a segmented hauberk and nothing else, let them. They'll look silly sure but it'll be different at least.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Jarlhen » Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:32 pm

In my experience basic leathers are abundant. You just need to talk to people. Of course, if you play a character that's not likeable you'll have a harder time. But I don't think any of my characters have struggled getting basic leathers. Just talked to people.

ETA: I don't think we need to put systems in place for this. It's simply a matter of people playing a role and crafting stuff. If we start selling things all that'll mean is that once there's one or two armorsmiths in the game and they've caught up there'll be a lot less for them to do. On several occasions, without joining a clan, I've been outfitted in basic leathers, weapons, sheaths, quivers, ammunition, for free within 1-2 days.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:07 am

MrT2G wrote:To be honest, I don't think it particularly matters how it is done but Utterby needs equipment readily available for new characters to buy/otherwise equip themselves with.

Similarly, there needs to be opportunities for new characters to pursue that will immediately allow them to begin to progress and develop their character.

No one is going to play long if all they can do is idle in the Inn in their newb gear for the days/weeks it takes to order equipment and/or find a clan leader.


I don't know what you mean by that. In my experience the leadership of every organization in Utterby is pretty active. If you're still having no luck finding the right people, there's always hobbitmail. Neither have I seen any board posts about any new arrivals to town seeking clan leaders.

In regards to the equipment, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to commence and immediately find a whole kit. It would be nice if the shops were better stocked, I agree, but that's more an issue of the game simply not having that many players. When we get closer to beta/open and start advertising the game, that'll change.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Brian » Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:16 am

Mithrandur wrote:
MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.


I also imagine a hefty amount of recycling arms/armor from the deceased, something that's strictly frowned upon on human sphere. That, and orcs haven't had much problem with getting weapons from humans as is. :lol:


In all seriousness I think he's right on the money! The orcs are a single clan; you make things for the clan because you have to. The crafters or Utterby aren't compelled in the same way and have much more leeway to pursue their own way of doing things I think. If you're the orc armorer you make the armor and then everyone gets the armor and that's just how it's done. I can't say for sure, but I'm imagining that it's not "well, you only get the armor if you can pay" or anything like that.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:04 am

Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.

pretty much this. "Make me armour and weapons or the enforcers break your legs" isn't going to make for a good system for humans like it will for the orcs. Vadok Ushtarak is fascist, Utterby is capitalist.

Also we have fewer new players coming in, and a smaller playerbase to support, while still dragging in a comparable amount of resources to what utterby does. Less demand, more supply
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:11 am

MrT2G wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:An easier solution be would to make all this stuff available in the final shop in character generation; basic leathers, low-grade spangen helms, mid to low grade weapons, and most if not all crafting tools. This would allow new characters to spend their starter coin to come IG reasonably equiped if they choose too. This, however, could close off one of the sources of new coinage. It is also lame and wouldn't create any roleplay. :mrgreen:

it also makes low level armourers feel pretty worthless. Back in early atonement people had that problem, where newbies entered with the same sort of gear that is the best an armourer could craft. Low grade spangenhelms functionally perform just as well as the fancy ones. They're just heavier.
Your idea for a discount gear shop seems pretty solid though, and would probably be pretty profitable for whoever went and started it
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:15 am

radioactivejesus wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.

pretty much this. "Make me armour and weapons or the enforcers break your legs" isn't going to make for a good system for humans like it will for the orcs. Vadok Ushtarak is fascist, Utterby is capitalist.

Also we have fewer new players coming in, and a smaller playerbase to support, while still dragging in a comparable amount of resources to what utterby does. Less demand, more supply


Honestly, Utterby doesn't even really have a lack of supplies either. There are plenty of hunters bringing in pelts and Logs are easy to come by. There's also been a ton of iron squirreled away. The only issue is, there are maybe 2 weapon crafters for the whole sphere, and one competent armorer.

Though it'd be so much simpler if people didn't all demand to have honed oquality iron weapons the day after they commence, along with a full suit of oiled leathers as well.
Entitled jerks..

As far as weapons go though, most people don't even realize that oquality weapons aren't -that- much better than poor quality ones.

A poor quality Iron mace is going to do as much damage as a honed bog-iron oquality mace, and only takes about 1/5 the time to make. (And is cheaper to boot!)
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:16 am

radioactivejesus wrote:
MrT2G wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:An easier solution be would to make all this stuff available in the final shop in character generation; basic leathers, low-grade spangen helms, mid to low grade weapons, and most if not all crafting tools. This would allow new characters to spend their starter coin to come IG reasonably equiped if they choose too. This, however, could close off one of the sources of new coinage. It is also lame and wouldn't create any roleplay. :mrgreen:

it also makes low level armourers feel pretty worthless. Back in early atonement people had that problem, where newbies entered with the same sort of gear that is the best an armourer could craft. Low grade spangenhelms functionally perform just as well as the fancy ones. They're just heavier.
Your idea for a discount gear shop seems pretty solid though, and would probably be pretty profitable for whoever went and started it


Given that demand currently seems to be only for the best of the best gear anyway, even from complete new characters, it sort of does that anyway.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby MrT2G » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:22 am

Jarlhen wrote:In my experience basic leathers are abundant.


This is not my experience. Basic leggings were available if you sought them out, but were hardly abundant. The rest was not.

Melkor wrote:I don't know what you mean by that. In my experience the leadership of every organization in Utterby is pretty active.


Again, our experience here are different. Play times could be a factor. Either way, increasing the number of people able to recruit is easy and relatively risk-free. The same goes for those able to make buy/sell goods in the Lodge.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:26 am

Mithrandur wrote:Honestly, Utterby doesn't even really have a lack of supplies either. There are plenty of hunters bringing in pelts and Logs are easy to come by. There's also been a ton of iron squirreled away. The only issue is, there are maybe 2 weapon crafters for the whole sphere, and one competent armorer.

Though it'd be so much simpler if people didn't all demand to have honed oquality iron weapons the day after they commence, along with a full suit of oiled leathers as well.
Entitled jerks..

As far as weapons go though, most people don't even realize that oquality weapons aren't -that- much better than poor quality ones.

A poor quality Iron mace is going to do as much damage as a honed bog-iron oquality mace, and only takes about 1/5 the time to make. (And is cheaper to boot!)


The problem is that the lower quality weapons can be obtained through chargen. People don't need those when they come in-game. They're all over the place. Aside, if people have the coin, I don't see why you'd want to encourage them to buy cheaper items.

As for the quality comparison, not everyone has peak strength. Every item that weighs a pound less adds up very quickly. If you don't want to die fighting a loan warg, or have a chance at fleeing through the river if necessary, you don't want to be encumbered.

Also, I don't really know what you're talking about when you say everyone demands oiled leather right out of chargen. I know my character spent quite a few in-game months wearing plain old leathers.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:42 am

Melkor wrote:
Mithrandur wrote:Honestly, Utterby doesn't even really have a lack of supplies either. There are plenty of hunters bringing in pelts and Logs are easy to come by. There's also been a ton of iron squirreled away. The only issue is, there are maybe 2 weapon crafters for the whole sphere, and one competent armorer.

Though it'd be so much simpler if people didn't all demand to have honed oquality iron weapons the day after they commence, along with a full suit of oiled leathers as well.
Entitled jerks..

As far as weapons go though, most people don't even realize that oquality weapons aren't -that- much better than poor quality ones.

A poor quality Iron mace is going to do as much damage as a honed bog-iron oquality mace, and only takes about 1/5 the time to make. (And is cheaper to boot!)


The problem is that the lower quality weapons can be obtained through chargen. People don't need those when they come in-game. They're all over the place. Aside, if people have the coin, I don't see why you'd want to encourage them to buy cheaper items.

As for the quality comparison, not everyone has peak strength. Every item that weighs a pound less adds up very quickly. If you don't want to die fighting a loan warg, or have a chance at fleeing through the river if necessary, you don't want to be encumbered.

Also, I don't really know what you're talking about when you say everyone demands oiled leather right out of chargen. I know my character spent quite a few in-game months wearing plain old leathers.


Actually, the weapons I'm talking about -cannot- be gotten through chargen. Currently there are:

Rough weapons (what everyone starts with)these are like 2 hours to make. Tops.
Poor weapons (A nicked/stained/ blah blah blah) For a talented or higher crafter, these around 8 to 9 hours
Ordinary weapons (what everyone wants) Even for a talented crafter these take over a day's worth of timers. More if they're honed.

Oh, and as far as weight goes, the metal that goes into the item determines the weight. So an iron poor-quality weapon will be lighter than a bog-iron ordinary-quality.

Aside, if people have the coin, I don't see why you'd want to encourage them to buy cheaper items.


Because again, the crafters don't like forcing people to wait any more than players like waiting. Smiths/armorers/woodcrafters/etc are all players just like you and sometimes they might just want to do something for themselves for a change. But when a single item, regardless of what that item is, takes multiple days to create and it's in constant demand, it burns players out.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Droll » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:17 am

Melkor wrote:Also, I don't really know what you're talking about when you say everyone demands oiled leather right out of chargen. I know my character spent quite a few in-game months wearing plain old leathers.


Refined iron mail or nothing, I say.

We do need more armorers and weaponsmiths though. You figure those would be the two crafters we'd have enough of. Probably more crafters in general. Hell, I've had trouble finding someone that even has the cooking skill. The only things I can say that we have plenty of are foragers, spam hunters and tree killers.

I don't think we need to rework the commence shop, and there is definitely no trouble getting basic leathers. If people aren't willing to use what is available then they can wait a couple of RL weeks before our extremely limited pool of crafters can get around to making the best stuff.
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Honored Dwarf
 
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:17 pm

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