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Re: Suggestions

Postby Oblivion » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:54 pm

If you don't want to die fighting a loan warg,


Heh heh... a loan warg... Everything costs an arm and a leg in the end... literally.

But yea, with orcs it's just a few boxes of general built up crap. You put yourself in whatever you can get your grubby little mitts on. Sometimes you get lucky and manage to find a set of standard leathers, if you're really lucky you might find some boots. Then some bog iron or pitted iron weapon and a rickety bow with warped arrows.

A donation box like that probably wouldn't work though, 'cause I could imagine the first newbie coming through seeing it would take everything they could carry, wander over to the nearest shop or AH and sell it all. Heh. Greedy humans.


Some of the timers ya'll are talking about seem a fair bit ridiculous though. A full day worth of timers for a suit of 'ordinary' leathers, not counting the time to prep the materials themselves? Up to three days of timers for bog iron maille ... I understand some of this stuff is 'the best there is to have' but ... Damn. That's some grind I wouldn't expect out of an MMORPG. Is there even a way to buy the 'materials' per fabricated without going to -another- player and making them using their craft timer limit to make the basic parts so you can use your timer to put it together?
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Icarus » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:00 pm

The issue is that we want these items to be relatively rare. We figured people would balk at those timers and go for the lower quality stuff, but nope! People want their high end stuff, and will raise hell if they can't get it. Crafters are unwilling to raise their prices to reflect their unwillingness to do it as well.

Market economy folks!
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Re: Suggestions

Postby tehkory » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:08 pm

Icarus wrote:The issue is that we want these items to be relatively rare. We figured people would balk at those timers and go for the lower quality stuff, but nope! People want their high end stuff, and will raise hell if they can't get it. Crafters are unwilling to raise their prices to reflect their unwillingness to do it as well.

Market economy folks!


If you want stuff to be rare, lower the health/durability of the item. By a lot. It'll decay that much faster, and so much easier.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Gobbo » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:28 pm

tehkory wrote:
Icarus wrote:The issue is that we want these items to be relatively rare. We figured people would balk at those timers and go for the lower quality stuff, but nope! People want their high end stuff, and will raise hell if they can't get it. Crafters are unwilling to raise their prices to reflect their unwillingness to do it as well.

Market economy folks!


If you want stuff to be rare, lower the health/durability of the item. By a lot. It'll decay that much faster, and so much easier.


NOOO I'm sick of repairing all my shit every single freaking day as it is.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby tehkory » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:33 pm

Gobbo wrote:
tehkory wrote:
Icarus wrote:The issue is that we want these items to be relatively rare. We figured people would balk at those timers and go for the lower quality stuff, but nope! People want their high end stuff, and will raise hell if they can't get it. Crafters are unwilling to raise their prices to reflect their unwillingness to do it as well.

Market economy folks!


If you want stuff to be rare, lower the health/durability of the item. By a lot. It'll decay that much faster, and so much easier.


NOOO I'm sick of repairing all my shit every single freaking day as it is.

While I sympathize, this is a misunderstanding of what durability is; durability isn't damage resistance, it's health points. This change won't make you repair armor more, it'll mean you literally can't repair the higher damages. It'll produce more huge/permanent damages.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:40 pm

tehkory wrote:
Gobbo wrote:
tehkory wrote:If you want stuff to be rare, lower the health/durability of the item. By a lot. It'll decay that much faster, and so much easier.


NOOO I'm sick of repairing all my shit every single freaking day as it is.

While I sympathize, this is a misunderstanding of what durability is; durability isn't damage resistance, it's health points. This change won't make you repair armor more, it'll mean you literally can't repair the higher damages. It'll produce more huge/permanent damages.


Which will then make people have to place orders for armor more often bogging the crafters down even further. This doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

I don't see why ordinary quality armor should be rare at all. That's precisely what ordinary means. When good and superior quality armors are released, that's when we should start taking measures to make the higher qualities more rare.

Lower quality armors already take enough damage so that they don't receive small damages. Gloves of all qualities do this as well. They never receive any less than a minor damage. If the hitpoints of armor pieces were lowered, this would require a reworking of the amount of damage an armor piece takes, per hit, so that armor pieces will still take small damages the most often. Otherwise, small damages would never appear on any armor pieces and that would be a huge pain in the ass.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby tehkory » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:50 pm


Which will then make people have to place orders for armor more often bogging the crafters down even further. This doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

I don't see why ordinary quality armor should be rare at all. That's precisely what ordinary means. When good and superior quality armors are released, that's when we should start taking measures to make the higher qualities more rare.

Lower quality armors already take enough damage so that they don't receive small damages. Gloves of all qualities do this as well. They never receive any less than a minor damage. If the hitpoints of armor pieces were lowered, this would require a reworking of the amount of damage an armor piece takes, per hit, so that armor pieces will still take small damages the most often. Otherwise, small damages would never appear on any armor pieces and that would be a huge pain in the ass.[/quote]
It wasn't a solution to your problem, it was a solution to Icarus's, that armor of (the currently) high(est) quality was too rare.

Remember that players can still repair minor damages, too, so as long as small/minor damagest are the most common, that's good. Otherwise, allowing those kits to repair moderates would work too.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Mithrandur » Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:41 pm

tehkory wrote:

Which will then make people have to place orders for armor more often bogging the crafters down even further. This doesn't sound like much of a solution to me.

I don't see why ordinary quality armor should be rare at all. That's precisely what ordinary means. When good and superior quality armors are released, that's when we should start taking measures to make the higher qualities more rare.

Lower quality armors already take enough damage so that they don't receive small damages. Gloves of all qualities do this as well. They never receive any less than a minor damage. If the hitpoints of armor pieces were lowered, this would require a reworking of the amount of damage an armor piece takes, per hit, so that armor pieces will still take small damages the most often. Otherwise, small damages would never appear on any armor pieces and that would be a huge pain in the ass.

It wasn't a solution to your problem, it was a solution to Icarus's, that armor of (the currently) high(est) quality was too rare.

Remember that players can still repair minor damages, too, so as long as small/minor damagest are the most common, that's good. Otherwise, allowing those kits to repair moderates would work too.[/quote]

The proper kits can already repair damages up to large I believe.

Skill Required: Armorcraft
Repairs damages up to: large in size
Used to Repair: Armor items made from any the following: Leather Metal Textile Wood
Uses Remaining: Many


Skill Required: Weaponcraft
Repairs damages up to: large in size
Used to Repair: Weapon items made from any the following: Metal
Uses Remaining: Many
It is 37 weapon repair kits.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Fri May 01, 2015 2:23 am

He means the unskilled kits repairing damages up to moderates now, if this reworking of the system were tried.

I don't think it would fix anything. It would just make repairing your armor more of a pain, more expensive and need to be done more often. People would still spend a few more coins to get what they want. Ordinary armor shouldn't be rare. It's ordinary.

Now, later on, when good and superior qualities are out, those should be made more rare simply by requiring more rare materials. This will cause their prices to be a lot higher too. (We still don't have ordinary quality metal armor and shields though, but I think Icarus said he's working on it now in another thread.)
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Real » Sat May 02, 2015 3:04 pm

Can we have pitted ingots return to being sold in the marketplace?

And can we get tin ingots added, or some means of getting ahold of them? It would be cool to having cassiterite ore show up in Dropgulch and seeing a tin-ingot craft in jewelrycrafting, it would make a jeweler PC a viable thing.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Frigga » Sat May 02, 2015 3:35 pm

We won't be returning to see iron, pitted or otherwise readily available en masse via shops. It's unbalancing to armor and weapon manufacturers as then any systems for money making would need to considered for the direct ability to turn those things into PvP gear.

Possibilty of mining something new in Dropgultch is a possibility though.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Icarus » Sat May 02, 2015 4:26 pm

I like the idea of an IG spt to get tin and other ore!!
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat May 02, 2015 11:29 pm

Frigga wrote:We won't be returning to see iron, pitted or otherwise readily available en masse via shops. It's unbalancing to armor and weapon manufacturers as then any systems for money making would need to considered for the direct ability to turn those things into PvP gear.

Possibilty of mining something new in Dropgultch is a possibility though.

well, pitted iron is not at all a viable choice for PVP gear, assuming that the deflect modifiers for armour is working as intended.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Sat May 02, 2015 11:40 pm

They're not. So really pitted is just as good as refined. Just instead of repairing you just throw them out and put the next one on! Perfect for the armorer looking to fight/practice armor to adroit. Worst case you throw it on your n00bs.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Sun May 03, 2015 4:42 am

Mithrandur wrote:
MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:How do the orcs manage it?


Fascist Communism and active leadership.


I also imagine a hefty amount of recycling arms/armor from the deceased, something that's strictly frowned upon on human sphere. That, and orcs haven't had much problem with getting weapons from humans as is. :lol:


So then do something about this too. Utterby traditionally buries their dead with their gear. Something similar should be instituted in the orc sphere as well to keep gear from piling up into a massive horde.

In Return of the King, we see orcs in the tower near Shelob's lair gathering up armor, weapons, trinkets, jewelry, etc. so they can be given to the Great Eye (I'm guessing to be consumed somehow or perhaps Sauron just likes to roll in treasure now and then, I don't know). Anyway, just because Sauron hasn't become the Great Eye yet doesn't mean he doesn't still need a horde of treasure for some purpose. Powerful orc NPCs can come through now and then and deplete the treasure horde by taking things, perhaps even forcing orc PCs to strip down now and then. That'll keep the gear from piling up so much.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun May 03, 2015 10:21 am

Melkor wrote:So then do something about this too. Utterby traditionally buries their dead with their gear. Something similar should be instituted in the orc sphere as well to keep gear from piling up into a massive horde.

In Return of the King, we see orcs in the tower near Shelob's lair gathering up armor, weapons, trinkets, jewelry, etc. so they can be given to the Great Eye (I'm guessing to be consumed somehow or perhaps Sauron just likes to roll in treasure now and then, I don't know). Anyway, just because Sauron hasn't become the Great Eye yet doesn't mean he doesn't still need a horde of treasure for some purpose. Powerful orc NPCs can come through now and then and deplete the treasure horde by taking things, perhaps even forcing orc PCs to strip down now and then. That'll keep the gear from piling up so much.

honestly that would be a terrible idea for the sphere. Every orc's equipment is generally earned through some form of combat, and each one has a story behind it. I doubt players would be happy if an untouchable staff NPC came waltzing around and stealing all of the equipment that the orcs worked hard and risked their lives to get, or spent long hours of crafting to produce. If staff actually have an issue with the orcs supply of weapons and armour, the best option would be to provide an IC goal or reward that can be worked towards by handing over weapons and armour. A mini-fort, a larger npc army, selling them to a caravan in trade for some other resource etc. Forbidding orcs from looting the dead just won't work with their culture. A lot of orc vs orc PVP is caused, or at least partially caused by one orc wanting some trinket the other orc has, and without the occasional bit of infighting things would just feel like Utterby Lite.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Wed May 06, 2015 2:56 pm

Mithrandur wrote:
MrT2G wrote:To be honest, I don't think it particularly matters how it is done but Utterby needs equipment readily available for new characters to buy/otherwise equip themselves with.

Similarly, there needs to be opportunities for new characters to pursue that will immediately allow them to begin to progress and develop their character.

No one is going to play long if all they can do is idle in the Inn in their newb gear for the days/weeks it takes to order equipment and/or find a clan leader.


Unfortunately, an auction house is not going to fix the armor or weapon issue for new players. And there's a simple reason for that.

Problem is, there are only so many people able to craft said gear, and craft timers take a fair amount of time to get everything made.

Weapons take a rl day and a half each(minimum) timer wise and that's if said crafter devoted only his/her time to making said weapon alone. This doesn't include the time it takes to actually make the ingot necessary for such. And that's including having the timer reduction based on skill.

Weapons -would- probably be about a -lot- faster if there was demand for anything but the absolute best, but so far there hasn't been a single person I've seen in game who didn't immediately want an oquality honed iron weapon the instant they leave chargen. That crap takes time, yo. If you don't want to wait maybe lower your standards a bit, or be prepared to wait.

Armor too has the same issue, with oiled leather taking at least 20-26 hours for a full suit depending on timers alone, and that's not including the time it takes for hides to brine/tan or the time/cost of oil. Maille is even worse with timers, taking roughly 75 hours to complete a full suit from scratch.

If you have only one new player coming along every 2 days, then that's fine, cool. Things would be kept up to pace with little difficulty. But new players rarely come in single digits. Often they come in waves of 2 or 3 or sometimes more. Sometimes it isn't just new players wanting gear and older players either want an upgrade, or they want a new weapon just because.

When this happens, -somebody- is going to have to wait. Period. There's no getting around this fact, and an auction house won't make it happen any faster.

Now, I'm not saying an auction house is a bad idea by -any- means. This will provide an outlet for independent crafters to start up without all the fuss of needing to join the Lodge or setting up connections for sales. Which is a -good- thing. More people would probably play a crafter role if they weren't almost forced to join the Lodge to make a living wage.



Also, these timers are way too high. By the time good and superior quality are in, you'll be looking at real life months for a suit of armor.

These timers need to be drastically lowered.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Brian » Wed May 06, 2015 5:21 pm

I think Icarus stated somewhere earlier in the thread that they're actually trying to keep the higher end (and right now that's oiled leather) armors scarce. Personally, I'm all for that and think that if timers are helping to keep it scarce then it's probably working as designed.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Wed May 06, 2015 6:56 pm

I hope it takes forever to make superior armor. Or ordinary metal armor. Metal armor thats ok would be awesome too
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Wed May 06, 2015 7:09 pm

Brian wrote:I think Icarus stated somewhere earlier in the thread that they're actually trying to keep the higher end (and right now that's oiled leather) armors scarce. Personally, I'm all for that and think that if timers are helping to keep it scarce then it's probably working as designed.



I am much less concerned with the 26 hours it takes to make a suit of oiled leather (that sounds reasonable) than I am with the 36 hours it takes to make a single honed iron weapon (that is unreasonable).
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Ancalagon » Wed May 06, 2015 7:09 pm

Brian wrote:I think Icarus stated somewhere earlier in the thread that they're actually trying to keep the higher end (and right now that's oiled leather) armors scarce. Personally, I'm all for that and think that if timers are helping to keep it scarce then it's probably working as designed.


Weapons do take a fairly lengthy time to create, and it may be considered reducing the timers on these by a small bit. But no promises.

Good weapons and armor are intended to be an investment of time and money however, not something thrown together on a whim in a single afternoon. So do expect lengthy wait times for better quality weapons and armor once implemented.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 5:33 am

12-18 hours for a single honed iron weapon sounds fair to me. It shouldn't take as long as an entire suit of oiled leather, but it should take considerably longer than any one piece of it.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Thu May 07, 2015 6:21 am

I don't see anything wrong with the current timers. Why do we need a to be able to get 2 iron honed weapons a day per weaponsmith?
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 7:48 am

Because 36 hours for a honed, iron weapon is too long. Going by timers alone, one of them should cost 500-600 coppers. A cost like that wouldn't make sense material wise. The simple solution is to lower the timers.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Brian » Thu May 07, 2015 8:21 am

Melkor wrote:Because 36 hours for a honed, iron weapon is too long. Going by timers alone, one of them should cost 500-600 coppers. A cost like that wouldn't make sense material wise. The simple solution is to lower the timers.


Can you explain why it's too long and how that price is factored?
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