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A place for Staff and players alike to use to coordinate RPTs and in-game events. No IC info, please.

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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 9:13 am

A suit of oiled leather takes 20-26 hours of timers and costs 400-500 coppers. A suit of iron mail takes around 75 hours of timers and costs 700-800 coppers. A honed, iron weapon takes 36 hours of timers and costs between 70-150 coppers, depending on the weapon style.

This is inconsistent. The materials that go into them (I think) are reflective of these prices. It takes a lot more iron to make a suit of mail than it does to make a weapon. I think the suit of oiled leather is a tad overpriced considering what goes into it, but the honed, iron weapons are priced about right for the iron that goes into them. It's just that their timers are way too high.

(Though, I'd appreciate if Mithrandur or one of the other crafters could confirm these estimations above. I'm not a crafter and I'm just going on what I've read here on the forums and prices I've encountered in-game.)
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Ancalagon » Thu May 07, 2015 9:21 am

Melkor wrote:A suit of oiled leather takes 20-26 hours of timers and costs 400-500 coppers. A suit of iron mail takes around 75 hours of timers and costs 700-800 coppers. A honed, iron weapon takes 36 hours of timers and costs between 70-150 coppers, depending on the weapon style.

This is inconsistent. The materials that go into them (I think) are reflective of these prices. It takes a lot more iron to make a suit of mail than it does to make a weapon. I think the suit of oiled leather is a tad overpriced considering what goes into it, but the honed, iron weapons are priced about right for the iron that goes into them. It's just that their timers are way too high.


Do not quote player pricing as the actual value of the item. Even the cheapest of the honed iron oquality weapons tend to value at around a gold or more. Honed iron swords more than two gold at least. If you're getting them for less that, I would say consider yourself lucky.

We can however certainly raise the prices on weapons if that is indeed what you're asking.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 9:25 am

I'm asking that all of this be standardized. Is it going to take 150 hours of timers and 1500 coppers to get an ordinary-quality suit of iron mail?

Timers and prices need to be standardized with the perception that we're going to be moving forward, not off what is currently in-game.

And as Icarus previously stated, staff have tried multiple times to get The Lodge to raise their prices for honed, iron weapons and they haven't.

It matters very little what the coded value of an item is if it's being sold in-game for more/less all of the time.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Ancalagon » Thu May 07, 2015 10:28 am

Melkor wrote:I'm asking that all of this be standardized. Is it going to take 150 hours of timers and 1500 coppers to get an ordinary-quality suit of iron mail?

Timers and prices need to be standardized with the perception that we're going to be moving forward, not off what is currently in-game.

And as Icarus previously stated, staff have tried multiple times to get The Lodge to raise their prices for honed, iron weapons and they haven't.

It matters very little what the coded value of an item is if it's being sold in-game for more/less all of the time.


Most likely, o-quality maille, which will not be in the game for some time, will in fact take quite a long while to make, and will take quite a hefty sum of coin for. There is absolutely no getting around that fact.

To directly quote Icarus here:

The issue is that we want these items to be relatively rare. We figured people would balk at those timers and go for the lower quality stuff, but nope! People want their high end stuff, and will raise hell if they can't get it. Crafters are unwilling to raise their prices to reflect their unwillingness to do it as well.


The bottom line is, Players are the ones making these items, and Players are the ones setting the price for said items. Staff side we can standardize items and do whatever we please but in the end it is the Players who decide what an item is worth.

Now, with that, if you don't like the wait for better quality weapons and armor, you're also more than free to request lower-tiered armor or weapons from said crafters, and I'm sure many would be more than happy to supply you with such. But you cannot, as they say, have your cheese bun and eat it too. :nom:
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu May 07, 2015 11:33 am

Melkor wrote:Because 36 hours for a honed, iron weapon is too long. Going by timers alone, one of them should cost 500-600 coppers. A cost like that wouldn't make sense material wise. The simple solution is to lower the timers.

No it's not. Honed iron weapons are intended to be a top-end, high quality killing implement for professional soldiers. It's something that takes a skilled hand, and a long time looking over every detail to get it just right. If you want a weapon that can be quickly mass-manufactured, then start cranking out sharp bog-iron. It's realistic and in the best interest of game balance that high quality equipment takes an extremely long time to make. Otherwise gear creep will ensure that we see 1st week newbies running around in gquality chainmail someday. I'd be in favour of seeing something like an oquality chainmail hauberk take 168 hours to make (or longer), a whole rl week or ingame month. This encourages people to take on apprentices to help with the easier tasks in the building process, and ensures that people can't crank the things out like it's nothing. Making riveted chainmail is an extremely time consuming process
Last edited by radioactivejesus on Thu May 07, 2015 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 11:34 am

Ancalagon wrote:The bottom line is, Players are the ones making these items, and Players are the ones setting the price for said items. Staff side we can standardize items and do whatever we please but in the end it is the Players who decide what an item is worth.

Now, with that, if you don't like the wait for better quality weapons and armor, you're also more than free to request lower-tiered armor or weapons from said crafters, and I'm sure many would be more than happy to supply you with such. But you cannot, as they say, have your cheese bun and eat it too. :nom:


I'm not asking for the prices to be standardized. I'm asking for the timers to be. Prices are an in-character matter.
Last edited by Melkor on Thu May 07, 2015 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu May 07, 2015 11:36 am

the timers to make a suit of oiled leather are definitely far too low, considering that it's actually better than the trash chainmail that takes twice as long to make.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 12:25 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:the timers to make a suit of oiled leather are definitely far too low, considering that it's actually better than the trash chainmail that takes twice as long to make.



Which will only compound the matter further when ordinary metal armor is released (said to be soon according to Icarus along with ordinary quality shields, in this thread http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2342.

At that point oquality metal armor will take 150+ hours to make while oquality leather armor will take 25 hours to make. If the best answer is to increase the timers on oquality leather, that works too. I just think it would be better to decrease them both. Do we really want gquality metal armor to take 300 hours of timers to make later on?

It's best to standardize this now rather than having to redo everything each time a tier of quality is released.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Ancalagon » Thu May 07, 2015 12:38 pm

Melkor wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:The bottom line is, Players are the ones making these items, and Players are the ones setting the price for said items. Staff side we can standardize items and do whatever we please but in the end it is the Players who decide what an item is worth.

Now, with that, if you don't like the wait for better quality weapons and armor, you're also more than free to request lower-tiered armor or weapons from said crafters, and I'm sure many would be more than happy to supply you with such. But you cannot, as they say, have your cheese bun and eat it too. :nom:


I'm not asking for the prices to be standardized. I'm asking for the timers to be. Prices are an in-character matter.


Timers in game for weapons as they are now are performing as intended. These weapons are, again, intended to be an investment for the players and not something thrown together on an afternoon's whim, nor will they ever be.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu May 07, 2015 2:17 pm

Melkor wrote: Do we really want gquality metal armor to take 300 hours of timers to make later on?

It's best to standardize this now rather than having to redo everything each time a tier of quality is released.

Yes. We do. Best way to help promote scarcity. A honed iron weapon can already be created in 1 rl days worth of timers if an at least adroit-skill weaponsmith and an at least familiar skill weaponsmith work togethor. Making chainmail takes a bit more work, but it is still very doable
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 2:38 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Melkor wrote: Do we really want gquality metal armor to take 300 hours of timers to make later on?

It's best to standardize this now rather than having to redo everything each time a tier of quality is released.

Yes. We do. Best way to help promote scarcity. A honed iron weapon can already be created in 1 rl days worth of timers if an at least adroit-skill weaponsmith and an at least familiar skill weaponsmith work togethor. Making chainmail takes a bit more work, but it is still very doable


If you really wanted to promote scarcity, you'd jump at my suggestion of doing away with how orcs recycle gear over and over. But you didn't... :?

But if the timers are where staff want them to be, that's that, I suppose.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu May 07, 2015 2:50 pm

Melkor wrote:
radioactivejesus wrote:
Melkor wrote: Do we really want gquality metal armor to take 300 hours of timers to make later on?

It's best to standardize this now rather than having to redo everything each time a tier of quality is released.

Yes. We do. Best way to help promote scarcity. A honed iron weapon can already be created in 1 rl days worth of timers if an at least adroit-skill weaponsmith and an at least familiar skill weaponsmith work togethor. Making chainmail takes a bit more work, but it is still very doable


If you really wanted to promote scarcity, you'd jump at my suggestion of doing away with how orcs recycle gear over and over. But you didn't... :?

because it would directly contradict the style of the orc sphere and many social norms they have in place. 2nd hand armour and weapons generally will have some unfixable damages. By the time it gets to it's 3rd or 4th owner who died wearing it, the thing will have a noticeably lower AC and end up being worthless trash.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Thu May 07, 2015 3:09 pm

And I provided a perfectly valid IC reason that the gear could be taken out. I'm sure the admins could think up other ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJIr_EL_4m8

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Re: Suggestions

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu May 07, 2015 6:20 pm

Melkor wrote:And I provided a perfectly valid IC reason that the gear could be taken out. I'm sure the admins could think up other ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJIr_EL_4m8

"It's going to the Great Eye, along with everything else."

I feel that scene does more to affirm the orcs loot the dead fact than it does sacrificing armour.
When Gorbag said that, he didn't mean that he was going to sacrifice the equipment in some sort of ritual, or anything like that. Rather, that he was under orders to deliver the hobbits and all their possessions to Barad-Dur, as Sauron was well aware at this point in the story that the ringbearer was a halfling and was on his way to mordor. Later on in the movie, the mouth of Sauron, a lieutenant of Barad-Dur presents Frodo's armour intact, and uses it to gloat to Aragorn. If the orcs had just killed a Gondorian soldier and taken his chainmail, there would have been no attempt at giving it to the great eye, and they would just loot it for themselves.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Jarlhen » Sat May 09, 2015 4:28 am

SoI, old and new, puts way too much emphasis on leather armor. Waaay too much. It has little basis in the lore and very little basis in the material that inspired the lore (history).

Mail should be the standard for anyone who wages war and fights. It should be common amongst soldiers and militia. It is supported by Tolkien and it is supported by the periods which inspired his books.

Leather armor is a hotly debated subject historically. No doubt it existed. However, during the Anglo-saxon/viking times we have very few references to it. We find pieces here and there, but largely history is void of leather armor. The reason for that is likely that cloth was cheaper and often as protective. We seem to have this idea that cloth gambesons are crap. They're not. Leather armor as portrayed by us and many other fantasy people, are largely based on just fantasies.

In all likelihood, leather armor was leather attached to a cloth gambeson. We have references to other types of leather armor, but mostly they're outside of N. Europe or in different time periods.

The downside to leather is that it rots easily in wet environments and it's expensive to make. There are some theories that leather armor would have been more expensive than a simple chest plate. The upside is that it's easy to work with.

So to me we, based on history and Tolkien's own writings:
Cloth armor - Works well. Cheap and fast to make. Suitable for poor people, hunting types, people who doesn't wage war regularly.
Leather armor - Pieces like gloves and bracers should be common. Leather attached to cloth too, but it's more expensive without offering that much more in terms of protection. Perhaps a bit.
Mail - Should be standard.
Plate - No basis in Tolkien, no basis in history. But perhaps a breastplate of cool make for elite units. But I wouldn't be sad if we skipped it.
Other stuff - Wait until Easterlings are in the game.

So to me, leather armor and cloth should have short timers and offer solid protection. Never should they be better than mail. Mail should have longer timers, but also be easier to divide amongst several people. So the making of rings and individual pieces can be done by multiple people. Materials should be cheaper or as cheap as leather too.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Sat May 09, 2015 7:04 am

Jarlhen wrote:Plate - No basis in Tolkien, no basis in history.


I think history would like to have a word with you here and here.

Jarlhen wrote:Mail should be the standard for anyone who wages war and fights. It should be common amongst soldiers and militia. It is supported by Tolkien and it is supported by the periods which inspired his books.


And it will be, we just don't have ordinary quality metal armor in-game yet. We only have trash and poor qualities of metal armor. Oiled leathers are ordinary quality leather. As far as plate goes, I'm pretty sure it's been stated by staff that we likely won't have any plate as there are very few, if any, instances of it in Tolkien's writings.

edit: just quoted the wrong part, there you go
Last edited by Melkor on Sat May 09, 2015 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Sat May 09, 2015 7:05 am

radioactivejesus wrote:
Melkor wrote:And I provided a perfectly valid IC reason that the gear could be taken out. I'm sure the admins could think up other ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJIr_EL_4m8

"It's going to the Great Eye, along with everything else."

I feel that scene does more to affirm the orcs loot the dead fact than it does sacrificing armour.
When Gorbag said that, he didn't mean that he was going to sacrifice the equipment in some sort of ritual, or anything like that. Rather, that he was under orders to deliver the hobbits and all their possessions to Barad-Dur, as Sauron was well aware at this point in the story that the ringbearer was a halfling and was on his way to mordor. Later on in the movie, the mouth of Sauron, a lieutenant of Barad-Dur presents Frodo's armour intact, and uses it to gloat to Aragorn. If the orcs had just killed a Gondorian soldier and taken his chainmail, there would have been no attempt at giving it to the great eye, and they would just loot it for themselves.



That sounds reasonable, I suppose. But the point still stands, if scarcity were what you were going for, I'm sure good reasons could be thought up for it by you or the staff.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Jarlhen » Sat May 09, 2015 7:53 am

Melkor wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:SoI, old and new, puts way too much emphasis on leather armor. Waaay too much. It has little basis in the lore and very little basis in the material that inspired the lore (history).


I think history would like to have a word with you here and here.

Jarlhen wrote:Mail should be the standard for anyone who wages war and fights. It should be common amongst soldiers and militia. It is supported by Tolkien and it is supported by the periods which inspired his books.


And it will be, we just don't have ordinary quality metal armor in-game yet. We only have trash and poor qualities of metal armor. Oiled leathers are ordinary quality leather. As far as plate goes, I'm pretty sure it's been stated by staff that we likely won't have any plate as there are very few, if any, instances of it in Tolkien's writings.


Trash and poor quality metal armor (whatever that means exactly) should still be superior to leather armor.

Tolkien took his inspiration from the early middle ages. Notice how all the links you posted mentioned 13th century and onwards. All periods AFTER the anglo-saxon/viking age, from which most of his inspiration comes. Besides, I'm not sure why you linked plate armor pages when you quoted me talking about leather. I mean, they mentioned pieces like vambraces and helmets and stuff, which I mention. I don't consider brigandine leather armor. And it's not what's described IG either.

And you bring up Tolkien not mentioning plate. He didn't really mention much about leather either (beyond helmets).

ETA: Oh wait. Are you saying that the absence of plate armor means leather armor was super common?

Double ETA in response to Melkor's ETA: Then my original statement stands. When I talk about plate and history I say it in the context of the anglo-saxon period. And I don't really count laminar as very Tolkienesque or even plate armor as the ones we're talking about :)
Last edited by Jarlhen on Sat May 09, 2015 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Sat May 09, 2015 10:23 am

It's maddening that the best metal armor IG is actually worse then the best leather. :(
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Sat May 09, 2015 10:36 am

I agree that ordinary leather armor should not have been released without ordinary metal armor also being ready to go.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Ceredir » Sat May 09, 2015 11:22 am

Matt wrote:It's maddening that the best metal armor IG is actually worse then the best leather. :(

Editing out my previous comment before someone interprets it wrong :) The widely-believed 'superiority' of oiled leather over rough maille is rather debatable.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Sat May 09, 2015 11:34 am

It definitely is debatable and there's a reason my last PC was in all maille. But it's debatable and it really shouldn't be lol. :)
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Brian » Sat May 09, 2015 11:57 am

I agree that metal armor should be superior, in all respects, for battle. However, it should be absolutely crap for sneaking and hiding. The caveat to this is that due to the way that our sneak and hide code works, it doesn't matter what kind of penalties you put on a piece of a equipment because if you know how to do it properly you can sneak and hide like a ninja and never be spotted with the absolute worst equipment for sneaking out there.

My take on the matter is that metal armor should be better in terms of protection, but that if you're wearing it it needs to disable sneak and hide. If it doesn't, there is no functional reason not to wear metal armor. You can say that it weighs too much but again, the proper build mitigates this and makes it a non-issue. If you want to have a functional difference between leather armor and metal armor I think you need to make that clear break between what the armors are for; leather armor is for scouting and wilderness related activities where stealth is of the essence, metal armor is for fighting.
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Matt » Sat May 09, 2015 12:27 pm

I completely agree! That'd really be an awesome addition and a huge change to how the current PvP plays out. For the better!
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Re: Suggestions

Postby Melkor » Sat May 09, 2015 3:02 pm

Also agree. Metal armor should make it impossible to sneak. Should still be able to hide though if you're at lightly encumbered.
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