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Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

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Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Sun May 25, 2014 12:46 pm

Without a lot of current documentation, and without too terribly much specific canonical information, we run the risk of not being collaborative in our attempt to portray the people (and even the orcs) of the area that we're soon to be playing in.

This thread is an attempt to consolidate information on our gameworld, both canonical and non-canonical, for easy reference (and more in-depth reading for those who like to click hyperlinks).

Please feel free to contribute by posting and discussing below, as I'm certain that this will be an ongoing referential research project.


Humans

Q: What is Laketown?

A: Glad you asked!



Q: How Big is Laketown's Army?

A: What army? We know that Bard mustered about 2,000 soldiers for The Battle of Five Armies after Smaug's attack, but there's a lot to suggest that most of these "soldiers" were not professionals. In fact, it seems more likely that Laketown, being a Democratic City-State in the current setting (the ONLY known human Democracy in Middle-Earth at this time), would have held a smaller army. It also stands to reason that Bard's muster was desperate after Laketown's destruction (he was making a play for the dragon's loot). Though the full, untrained human army would quadruple the dwarvish army in size, several research papers suggest that prior to Bard's war-time muster, the Lakemen only had between 100-200 trained soldiers. They relied on the extremely defensible geography of their location to discourage attacks, and were likely somewhat protected by the realm of elves to their west as well.



Q: What is Utterby?

A: Good question! Here's the most information I've found so far, for quick reference, though any more information would be fantastic!

Not much of the local politics would be known to new characters, except for that Old Man Geriac and his son seem to make the decisions for Utterby.



Q: What are the closest known nearby settlements?

A: Well, there are canonical and non-canonical answers to this.

Non-canonically, for the purposes of our game, you can find out more about nearby settlements on our wiki.

Canonically, you have the ruined city of Dale close to the Lonely Mountain, destroyed long ago by Smaug. You also have the land of Dorwinion down the river to the southeast by the Sea of Rhun, which frequently traded its famous wine with Laketown and the elves; interesting to note in relation to Dorwinion is a long-term debate between Tolkien experts about whether or not Dorwinion was a realm of Men, or of Elves. Additionally, you have the dwarves of the Iron Hills, which were a very noble line of dwarves known to trade with the Lakemen. Laketown existed very near to The Woodland Realm of Sindarin Elves; these elves were their strongest allies at this time. It's also possible that Laketown traded with Easterlings in time of peace, though it's just as likely that Laketown (and especially non-canonical outposts outside of Laketown) had to be wary of Easterling raids. Often over-looked, the history and influence of the Easterlings should definitely be considered.

Because the Lakemen were in close contact to so many different cultures (and likely saw refugees from some of those cultures), and there is no canonical evidence of them not trusting the nearby dwarves and elves (prior to the events that take place in 'The Hobbit'), it seems unlikely that the Men of the Dale were xenophobic.


Q: When Was the Kingdom of Dale Founded? Who Were its People?

A: This questions seems like it would have a simple answer, but Tolkien doesn't make it very easy for us to discern. While a unique and barbaric line of Northmen lived in the area for quite some time, the best research suggets that the actual city of Dale was founded between the years 2590 and 2600 in the Third Age. The Northmen who settled this area hailed from the far north, beyond the Grey Mountains. In the Second Age, Sauron had destroyed their culture prior to the War of the Elves and Sauron. In the Third Age, these nomadic people, unrelated directly to the Woodmen of Greenwood Forest (not yet called Mirkwood) or the Rhovanion peoples, began to settle south along the northern and eastern edges of the Greenwood Forest. They would suffer through several wars against the Easterling Wainriders and Balchoth, but would ultimately survive to eventually found the Kingdom of Dale.

But by the time that Dale was founded, their blood heritage would not likely have remained very pure at all. After all, they had lived in the Grey Mountains, in close proximity other tribes of Hill-Men, and come south near to the northron Woodmen of Greenwood Forest. They had found themselves in constant contact with several tribes of Easterlings (sometimes, in war), and would have cross-bred with the above races for thousands of years. Kingdom-less and locked into an isolated location geographically, they would also have been likely to have had refugees of the Rohirrim and even the Rangers of the North enter into their gene-pool over the course of the Second and Third Ages. Each of these early Dalish tribes settling along the Forest and Rivers' edges would have its own unique genetic code, and by the time they were unified as the Kingdom of Dale, their heritage would have been a veritable melting pot of other sub-species of Man.

There is narrative in The Hobbit that suggests that the Laketown that exists during that story is built upon the ruins of another town on the Lake. We do not know anything about that more specifically, though it does suggest that the area has been inhabited for quite a long time. Tolkien has given us clues, but few direct answers.

It seems likely that, based on geography and what we can infer about the Lakemen's culture, they would not care as much about their lineage as other regions of Men were wont to. They would simply be the Dalish (Men of the Dale) to the educated, or Lakemen to the masses. The Easterlings would seem starkly different to them, and it's likely that the Lakemen would think of them as nomadic savages with a very strange culture. These Lakemen had evolved culturally from their savage background, whereas the Easterling tribes had not.


Q: What Do We Know About the Lakemen?

A: Not a ton, but we can extrapolate. Positioned between more settled areas, with Mirkwood Forest on one side, and vast swathes of wilderness and mountains on the other sides, we don't know how the city-state of Dale came to be in much detail; most likely, it started as a melting pot for refugees of different tribes of men, including the local Northmen, Hill-men of the Grey Mountains and refugee Easterlings, unified by a Girion, a Northern Lord.

We do know that the Laketown of 'The Hobbit' was unique in that its people spoke a specific, archaic form of the Common Tongue related to Atliduk (the ancestral language of the Rohirrim). It was also unique in that it was a Democracy, with no monarch; the town thrived on trade with its neighbors and was steeped in local politics. Their method of trade was interesting and strange; they floated barrels of goods down the river as the hub between the elvish kingdom and the realm of Dorwinion. Surrounded by water and mountains, Laketown was extremely defensible; however, they could do little to manage the threat of Smaug. It was not uncommon for Smaug to attack Laketown, burn down a house or two, and carry off a maiden; this was a threat that all Lakemen would have been very aware of.

Most importantly, I think that Laketown's being a form of simple Democracy is key. To me, this suggests that the town was likely founded by refugees who had come to be opposed to monarchy. This, in turn, suggests to me that the Lakemen were likely fiercely independently-minded, culturally.



Mirkwood, Orcs, Wargs, Spiders and Dol Guldur

Q: Where Can I Learn More About Mirkwood Forest?

A: Here, here and here, for starters.



Q: Where Are the Nearby Orc Clans?

A: Vadok Mal is the current home of the nearby orc clans. Vadok Mal is the eastern-most mountain of the Mountains of Mirkwood.

This puts the orc tribes very close to Utterby, which lies near to the abandoned Old Forest Road and River Running.

Limited documentation has been made available about the specific orc tribes at Vadok Mal.



Q: What Have the Orcs Been Up To Recently?

A: We know that the tribes of Vadok Mal are being manipulated by the Necromancer, but likely through a proxy (or several proxies). They are charged with causing problems for the humans in and around Utterby.

Beyond that, we know but a few things. Azog, the long-time infamous leader of the orc of the Misty Mountains, was slain on the fields of battle over one-hundred years ago in the final conflict of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. The Orcs fled back into their strongholds after the war, and the mantle of leadership was taken up by Azog's son, Bolg, who rules from the orcish capital at Mount Gundabad, near the ruins of Angmar in the Misty Mountains. This suggests that over the past one-hundred years, the orcs have laid mostly dormant in the Misty Mountains, and have likely only recently been called east by the machinations of the Necromancer.



Q: How Intelligent Are Wargs? What purpose do they serve?

A: Wargs are known to actually be quite intelligent, and even sentient. You can read some basic canonical information about them, though Wolfsong and Krelm have written in-depth non-canonical documentation to further describe their society for the purposes of our game.

In short, the Wargs of this region are independent allies of the orcs and the Necromancer, and they are a feared threat to the Dalish settlers.


Q: How Intelligent are Great Spiders? What is their society like?

A: As with Wargs, we do know that Spiders are quite intelligent, though we don't learn much about their society. There is, however, plenty of evidence to suggest that they had one. You can read some interesting basic canonical information on them. I have also written more in-depth non-canonical documentation on Great Spiders for the purposes of our game.

In short, they pose both a threat to orcs and to men in the region.


Q: What Is The Necromancer Up To in Dol Guldur?

A: Wouldn't you like to know? Well, we do know a little, and can imagine quite a lot more. There is a lot of evidence to support the idea that while the Necromancer grew in power at Dol Guldur, and moved his pawns about the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood Forest, he was also experimenting with creating dark, dangerous creatures.

We know that Giant Bats from Dol Guldur and Mirkwood allied with the goblins and wargs at least once in The Hobbit. There is a little evidence to suggest that the Giant Bats themselves were descendants of Vampires, which were lesser Maiar creatures of the First Age - much like the Balrogs. This could mean that Giant Bats in the Third Age had some level of sentience, though not necessarily.

There is also the mystery of the Mewlips to consider, which were believed to have been inhabiting Dol Guldur in the Third Age when the Necromancer took refuge there. The fate of these creatures is never described, but it seems likely that the Necromancer would have bent them to his purposes.

In truth, all manner of unknown evil could have been created in Dol Guldur. Of course, the average Lakeman, if they knew of Dol Guldur at all, would only know it as an evil place, haunted by ghosts and terrors of the night.
Last edited by Songweaver on Thu May 29, 2014 1:09 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby krelm » Sun May 25, 2014 1:10 pm

Where Are the Nearby Orc Clans?

From my understanding, the main orkish clan is currently the Vadok Ushtarak, a warband sent up north from Dul Guldur to bolster their numbers and try to "organize" a better fighting force for the Necromancer (though, obviously, they didn't get their orders directly from the Necromancer, and most probably don't even know who he is.)

As far as I can tell, the mountain that the orks live in (named Vadok Mal, located west of Utterby) is inhabited by around 100 orkin, with 40 of those being part of the Vadok Ushtarak.

I'm not sure about any other warbands.


What Have the Orcs Been Up To Recently?

Haven't been able to find any information on this.

How Intelligent Are Wargs? What purpose do they serve?

This depends on if they use the documentation that Wolfsong and I submitted. In it, wargs packs basically act like miniature warbands, and the average warg is somewhat more intelligent than the average orc. Much of their society was similar to orkish culture, with a might-makes-right attitude, though wargs were heavily invested in their own oral history.

Of course, those were just the submitted docs. No word on whether or not they'll be used.

How Intelligent are Spiders? What is their society like?

Haven't found any information on this, either, though I'd love to submit some documentation for them.

What Is The Necromancer Up To in Dol Guldur?

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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Sun May 25, 2014 1:13 pm

Thanks! I'm working on doing some research on the evil-stuff now, to amalgamate with whatever else exists non-canonically.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Icarus » Sun May 25, 2014 1:13 pm

I will endeavor to answer many of these orcsy questions.

If you give me lists, I can give you answers and you can consolidate them.

Adding:
We are using Krelm's Warg documentation. If he submits spider documentation, we will use that.

I have info on the other warbands that I'll post soon.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Sun May 25, 2014 1:54 pm

Working with Krelm to write some documentation by tonight for Spiders. Will consolidate with his Warg stuff and any orc links/info folks throw up here. I'll tack on anything relevant and canonical that I find, but there's much less of that for orcs/etc than there is for humans.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Pallando » Sun May 25, 2014 7:02 pm

Look forward to seeing some of the work here on spiders - we can definitely make use of some of this moving forward for the Orc sphere.

We're currently working on quite a bit of documentation for other warbands in the area. We'll get back to you on these soon!
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Icarus » Sun May 25, 2014 7:14 pm

As a note to Pallando, you can post the short descriptions we have of the different area tribes and such. New characters won't know of them, but it's good flavor.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Pallando » Sun May 25, 2014 7:19 pm

Here's a taste of what we have so far for the other tribes in the region besides the Vadok. Some of this is still being refined, but it's a good start:

Tribe: The Splintered Tusk
Leader: Uktharak
About: warg riders traditionally, tuned to the language and habits of their animal brethren. The Tusk's claimed territory borders with the Vadok Ushtarak to the west, though the two tribes are on relatively good terms following the pact Striza formed some years ago supplying meat in return for hides and weaponry, allowing the Vadok of the time to boost its numbers significantly. The tribe is composed traditionally of larger Orcs, some claiming ancestry from those in the Misty Mountains some way to the west. As a tribe the Tusk are known to be quick thinkers, calculating, and not always too quick to reach for the axe.

Tribe: The Yellow Eye
Leader: Thok
About: Thok and his band are one of the smaller tribes of Mirkwood, residing to the north of Vadok Ushtarak. Unsurprisingly they bear the insignia of a yellow painted eye into battle, on both their armor and their banners. The Eye have been led for some generations by a powerful Orkish family, Thok the son of a war-renown Orc Striza once fought for the current Vadok hunting grounds. As a family led tribe, bonds with the warrior Orcs are tight, and generally speaking they're tactically superior in the field.

Tribe: Wolf Fathers
Leader: Blit Wolfblood
About: Leader of the Wolf Fathers, Blit Wolfblood, is known best for his savage and reckless leadership of one of Mirkwood's largest and most savage Orc tribes. Probably one of the less intelligent Orcs of the region, Blit has been known to make unnecessarily bold and wasteful decisions in battle, throwing many of his warriors to their deaths. His followers are however incredibly devoted, believing him to be some kind of reincarnate Orc spirit. These Orcs are known to be somewhat invested in all kinds of religious rites and rituals, praising the wolf.

Tribe: The Shunned Moon Slaves
Leader: Snorthal
About: Also known as simply, "The Shunned", these Orcs are traditionally gelded and shackled for their first weeks, beaten and put to task mining, skinning, or metalcrafting. As such, Snorthal's crew are a group of somewhat skilled Orcs first and foremost turning a profit for various ventures outlined by their leaders, and second of all warriors in the field. Much of their muscle is trained in heavy weaponry, and some are known to be proficient hunters.

Tribe: Gijakpis Vras (Orcish: Bloodthirsty Assassins)
Leader: Jeex
About: Jeex, leader of the Vras, was once a close friend of Striza, and a devout member of Vadok Ushtarak. After a dispute which involved Zakur, now healer to the Vadok Mal, Jeez was outcast, where he went on to form his own band of hunters and scouts - suffice to say he has spread his hatred to his followers. Over the years Jeex embedded his tribe into this western portion of Mirkwood, carving out a territory with guerrilla tactics and cunning. Traditionally, while fearsome fighters in woodland, the Vras are also known to be proficient light infantry in pitch battle, thanks to their equipment and training.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Sun May 25, 2014 10:04 pm

I'm staving off a migraine, so I'm unlikely to update this thread and send off the new documentation on spiders/wargs until some point tomorrow.

I did have a question, though, in regards to the orc clans that you've written up. A few, infact!

Do any of the clans (besides the "Wolf Fathers") have any sort of religious bent? Do any worship the Necromancer? Is there currently a major figure (like Azog, or the Necromancer) behind the scenes, helping to unite these clans in common purpose, or are they all individualistic currently? If so, would the common orc know anything about the uber-leadership?

I'd definitely love to include some answers to those questions in my consolidation efforts.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Pallando » Sun May 25, 2014 10:16 pm

Songweaver wrote:Do any of the clans (besides the "Wolf Fathers") have any sort of religious bent? Do any worship the Necromancer? Is there currently a major figure (like Azog, or the Necromancer) behind the scenes, helping to unite these clans in common purpose, or are they all individualistic currently? If so, would the common orc know anything about the uber-leadership?


Hey Songweaver,

Great questions. I'll answer as best I can, and Icarus can confirm/clarify where need be.

The Wolf Fathers are indeed the closest we get to any kind of religious worship, which resembles elements of both superstition and traditional rituals passed down the generations. Blit himself is said to be the reincarnation of those Orc leaders before him, passing along the Wolf within.

Behavior of this nature will vary in the other tribes, depending on their descent - many, don't forget, are formed from a variety of slaves drawn together from captured tribes, so there'd be a decent mix of believers and non-believers.

As for behind the scenes leadership I'll say yes at this point but will refrain from divulging anything further on the topic. Spoilers! :)
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby MackDazzler » Sun May 25, 2014 10:31 pm

Songweaver wrote:Q: How Big is Laketown's Army?

A: What army? We know that Bard mustered about 2,000 soldiers for The Battle of Five Armies after Smaug's attack, but there's a lot to suggest that most of these "soldiers" were not professionals. In fact, it seems more likely that Laketown, being a Democratic City-State in the current setting (the ONLY known human Democracy in Middle-Earth at this time), would have held a smaller army. It also stands to reason that Bard's muster was desperate after Laketown's destruction (he was making a play for the dragon's loot). Quadrupling the dwarvish army in size, several research papers suggest that prior to Bard's muster, the Lakemen only had between 100-200 trained soldiers prior to the war. They relied on the extremely defensible geography of their location to discourage attacks, and were likely somewhat protected by the realm of elves to their west as well.


This is going to make for some interesting roles, depending on the direction the staff in charge want to take.

While I can see the military/lawman type role in Alpha being limited mostly to that of a privateer/mercenary to guard caravans, barges or Utterby itself, I think once Laketown opens there will be a tonne of room to move.

A small 'trained' force of lawmen protecting a small City-State under the influence of the Master? Imagine the politics, corruption and general money-grubbing involved with that to make themselves and their constituents wealthier.

It could almost be like a Tolkien version of the 'SS'. I'm excited to see how this pans out.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon May 26, 2014 5:39 am

I like how when democratic systems in a world primarily filled with monarchy-centric civilizations come up, the first thing players want to do is subvert/corrupt them. :lol:

pls no fascism in middle-earth tho
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Mon May 26, 2014 11:37 am

Great discussions so far.

I've finished with a lot of non-canonical documentation, and am just about ready to update the OP to include as much additional information as possible (just waiting on a few responses). My plan after that is to create a few functional maps of the gameworld as we know it.

Reading through the Utterby documentation from Dero left me with a few questions, only one of which is really very important for this start-up documentation effort. What are the politics of Utterby? Do they answer to the Master of Laketown, or do they have any sort of village leadership?
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Icarus » Mon May 26, 2014 1:15 pm

A man by the name of Gariac is in charge. Who he directly answers to is a question that will perhaps be answered in time, but himself and his son are the primary leadership.

There is a rather extended family of Gariacs; they all hold relative leadership positions. Frigga can provide a better discussion perhaps, but all anyone coming into town would need to know is that old man Gariac and his son are the most important folks in town.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby MackDazzler » Mon May 26, 2014 7:18 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:I like how when democratic systems in a world primarily filled with monarchy-centric civilizations come up, the first thing players want to do is subvert/corrupt them. :lol:

pls no fascism in middle-earth tho


Seems like something that would be susceptible to corruption is all. :P I agree on the fascism though.

Songweaver wrote:What are the politics of Utterby? Do they answer to the Master of Laketown, or do they have any sort of village leadership?


Well Ironwood is supposedly a valuable commodity for trade and construction. Would it be safe to assume the Master wouldn't allow Gariac and his sons into this position unless he was either in league with Laketown's leadership or paying his way in gold?
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Letters » Tue May 27, 2014 3:01 am

WorkerDrone wrote:I like how when democratic systems in a world primarily filled with monarchy-centric civilizations come up, the first thing players want to do is subvert/corrupt them. :lol:

pls no fascism in middle-earth tho


The trick is to reconcile ideas about political systems and such with the fact that they mostly just don't work very well on MUDs. Look at all the mostly failed Councils here and there on RPIs over the years. While SoI had more of an NPC-maintained glass ceiling, ARPI/PRPI should probably have taught us that when left to their own devices, groups of players default to communist autocracies. That needs to be accounted for in advance if anything democratic is sought after - no point having background and lore stuff if IG realities don't mesh with it.

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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby WorkerDrone » Tue May 27, 2014 3:26 am

It is really hard to form any sort of government or organization (of the economic variety or military variety) without it devolving into one of communistic tendencies, despotism or no.

This is mainly because coin is either scarce to the majority of players and not easily acquirable, or what is easily acquirable is not enough to actually reasonably purchase any of the variety of things that people want except in the span of RL months.

Or such is the case, coin becomes so overly inflated that people demand to bargain and barter in exchange for their goods or services or they won't be able to get the things they want in fair trade.

The most important thing, more important than a non-lackluster government for one of these games, is an economy not based on "sinks" but one based on a flow of goods. Goods get made, goods go places, they don't just sit around and rot. If the goods can't be used in the immediate game world, they should be shipped out on boats in exchange for coin or raw materials that can be used to buy things that need to be made with imported goods, or buy imported goods themselves.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Taurgalas » Tue May 27, 2014 6:28 am

Yes! And this is part of the fun with Utterby. Not all of it will be in immediately with Alpha (since getting things together for basic play took precedence) But you have hit on the main purpose for Utterby's existence - it is a logging town. Logs get cut, processed and go out. They don't sit around, unless there is some reason NOT to send them upriver. Which may happen at times.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Tue May 27, 2014 10:46 am

I've updated the original post with quite a lot of information. The only (currently) listed questions to answer have written non-canonical documentation that will go up once Icarus decides how he'd prefer me to present that information.

I'm happy to add more questions and detail if there are areas of lore that folks think would benefit all players to know about the gameworld.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Icarus » Tue May 27, 2014 11:26 am

Clarification:
The destruction of Utterby is not the stated goal of the orcs. I'm sure they've fought, but Striza's band is by no means strong enough to actually siege a town, even a small one. Now... Raiding and looting are another story!
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Tue May 27, 2014 12:10 pm

Icarus wrote:Clarification:
The destruction of Utterby is not the stated goal of the orcs. I'm sure they've fought, but Striza's band is by no means strong enough to actually siege a town, even a small one. Now... Raiding and looting are another story!


Fixed, and new documentation on Wargs/Great Spiders linked.
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Tiamat » Wed May 28, 2014 4:33 pm

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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Taurgalas » Wed May 28, 2014 7:33 pm

For clarification purposes: Laketown is not like Angost. By this, I mean, there is no reason for Rangers of the North to be present, given that Striza is at best a minor threat and that Smaug is asleep and generally the stuff of legends at this point. Hillmen... ? (I know that was a bastardization of Dunlendings who likewise have no reason to be there.)

Mirkwood, and by relationship, Laketown and Utterby were populated potentially by the Woodmen of Central Mirkwood, by this point there were potentially a few Easterlings in southernmost Mirkwood, or just plain old Northmen - primarily Dalish.
[Petition:***] Why is there a pretty pink pony with doe eyes and a party-balloon cutie mark in the group?

*** orc player name edited out for his/her own protection.
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Taurgalas
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Khamul » Wed May 28, 2014 7:54 pm

As for behind the scenes leadership I'll say yes at this point but will refrain from divulging anything further on the topic. Spoilers! :)


Striza is the utmost leadership that anyone is aware of, yes. ;)
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Re: Getting to Know the Dale and Mirkwood

Postby Songweaver » Thu May 29, 2014 8:40 am

Taurgalas wrote:For clarification purposes: Laketown is not like Angost. By this, I mean, there is no reason for Rangers of the North to be present, given that Striza is at best a minor threat and that Smaug is asleep and generally the stuff of legends at this point. Hillmen... ? (I know that was a bastardization of Dunlendings who likewise have no reason to be there.)

Mirkwood, and by relationship, Laketown and Utterby were populated potentially by the Woodmen of Central Mirkwood, by this point there were potentially a few Easterlings in southernmost Mirkwood, or just plain old Northmen - primarily Dalish.


Our conversation in PM encouraged me to go back to my old texts and search more research papers to get more detail. I've re-written that question and provided more insight/links. Lemme know how that sits with you!
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