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Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:34 am
by Jeshin
Based on the books and lore. What are the various ways these groups handle dead. For example is a carn burial better than a river burial is better than burning is better than being buried for river men? Do orcs always eat their dead or just leave them to rot. Stuff like that.

For the human sphere, what should we be doing with these peoples things based on lore?

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:12 am
by Songweaver
Funeral customs in Middle-Earth are well defined at certain points, but there is a lot open to interpretation. Here are some things that we know about Men and Orcs:

- Orcs usually burn their dead.
- The human's "heathen kings" of old were said to burn their dead. There's a lot to suggest that funeral pyres are a wicked way of handling the dead, as we see with Denethor in Return of the King.
- The noblemen of Gondor were buried in a mausoleom.
- Boromir was killed in the wilderness, and could not receive a proper funeral, so was sent down the river upon a small ship.

For me, it would make sense for Utterby to have a grave yard of some sort. They wouldn't have enough resources to waste floating bodies down the river (no matter how cool it would be) and don't seem out of touch with civilization enough to actively burn their dead.

Orcs would most likely be much more efficient and less ceremonial about dealing with their dead, most likely. Light'em up!

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:13 am
by Jeshin
So a pyre funeral in Utterby would be for people whose didn't have family or enough community rank (foreman, officers, etc) to warrant a burial?

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:14 am
by BoogtehWoog
There are also several examples of Elves burying their dead and leaving cairns in memorial.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:15 am
by BoogtehWoog
Jeshin wrote:So a pyre funeral in Utterby would be for people whose didn't have family or enough community rank (foreman, officers, etc) to warrant a burial?
I don't think so. I think burial is probably most likely. And I don't see them floating corpses down the river because it would be quite contrary to civilization. The circumstances of Boromir's funeral necessitated it.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:16 am
by Jeshin
Well to my knowledge shovels are not in the human sphere and we have a pyre, which is why I'm asking...

Also regarding my initial post. Belongings of the dead. Lore advised ways of handling them?

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:21 am
by BoogtehWoog
Jeshin wrote:Well to my knowledge shovels are not in the human sphere and we have a pyre, which is why I'm asking...

Also regarding my initial post. Belongings of the dead. Lore advised ways of handling them?
The staff may have different ideas and we will probably have to wait for them to chime in. Like Songweaver, I think burial would be the rule as opposed to burning the dead for humans.

Personal effects would probably be buried with the dead. Outside of that, I imagine they would be divvied up among the family. If no such thing exists, perhaps the town claims them. I don't think they should generally fall into the hands of other players unless they are very significant relations. These are just my thoughts.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:23 am
by Jeshin
Minor addition: I think it would be really great if the Staff or a trusted wiki moogle submitted an update to the Utterby wiki with death customs and stuff to make it 'official' once it's hammered out.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:23 am
by BoogtehWoog
Agreed, sir.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:30 am
by Tiamat
I too think burying the dead would be the ideal way to deal with it. I can update the wiki once we come to a consensus.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:14 am
by Icarus
Burial with equipment is the preferred way to honor the dead in Wilderland. Looting of the dead bring some bad mojo, unless it's in the family. Such as your father's sword!

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:54 am
by Songweaver
I built a graveyard in Angost back in the day, and we had an awesome gravedigger PC who lived on site. When the graveyard was utilized properly, it was a really immersive way to handle the awkwardness of PC death. Something similar here would be neat.

Here's what I did:

I created a very simple object program that could be used on shovels that would allow a person to dig a grave in that room. It would load a notake open grave container object that would allow people to bury PCs/their objects. Then, the shovel had a second object program that would check for an open grave, change its description to a "fresh, covered grave", and turn it into a closed, locked container. That fresh grave would morphto 86 (backend lingo for disappearing entirely) after 12 RL hours or 2 IG days. Until then, the grave could be dug up, which just changed the desc back to what it was before and opened/unlocked it.

You do an even simpler version of this (one that doesn't allow for grave-robbing) by just having the second (fill grave) program remove the open grave object and replace it with an atmospheric filled grave object that morphto'd 86 after however many hours.

I always felt that this was a nice touch for funerals.

------

Beyond that, specific information, such as who would "lead" a funeral and what a funeral would look like in Utterby would be very helpful to flesh out for those living in the town, I think.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:04 pm
by BoogtehWoog
That's very cool, Songweaver. I'd like to see something like that. 8-)

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:17 pm
by Stoneturtle
I built a grave object too, for the Ithilien Battalions, but I like Songweaver's container idea better. That's brilliant!

The thing I like about mine was that over a long time the appearance of the grave would age, so that you had a fresh grave, then maybe a grassy hump, then eventually a slight depression (I don't remember the descriptors I used). Maybe a combination of the two would be good.

I had a crypt where we left bodies of officers and the one lord we lost. The bodies would morph to show signs of decay over time and eventually be skeletons with the equipment of the bodies on them.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:21 pm
by Matt
Should make an official burial thing in the wiki!

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:20 pm
by Hazgarn
There's a craft for digging and closing graves. The difficult part seems to be getting a shovel in-game.

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:45 pm
by radioactivejesus
the typical burial rites in the Vadok Mal for unliked orcs and humans include the following, however since the conscripts of the Vadok are an amalgamation of the neighboring tribes, rituals can vary wildly from the norm.
1) Sever the head of the slain orc. If it's an unkown goblin who has attained no glory, a minor enemy slain in battle, or anyone who died a cowardly death, the head is thrown into the skull-pits within the central hall. Enemy leaders and worthy opponents are generally piked within the trophy wall of the officers quarters, or at the gateway into the mountains. This is more for the orcs to brag about the fact that they killed them, rather than any sort of honour.
2) the body is either burned, or if the orcs don't feel like wasting the firewood, thrown out into the far tunnels of the mountain, where it is entirely consumed by giant rats over the course of a week.
I'd post the ceremonies used for dead orcs that are well liked by their comrades, but the scenario's never come up yet :p

Re: Rivermen, hillmen, and orc dead

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:57 am
by Rivean
I wouldn't put it past the citizens of Utterby to burn traitors and the like instead of burying them - it's an insult. I think similarly, orc corpses would be burned, likely with the least amount of touching possible.