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Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

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Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby WorkerDrone » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:20 pm

This is a thread that disputes the primary focus in the human sphere as being war/combat oriented. In summation: It should absolutely not be. In further detail;

The bulk of admin focuses might probably be better served within skill-based prog-based activities, and be more highly goods oriented. Humans should have enough things to work with that they can produce basic (I do mean basic) goods with some ease, while combat PCs are still highly valued because they can acquire advanced materials for them to occasionally work on advanced projects.

This doesn't necessarily have to involve Mirkwood forest, but can also involve combat PCs guarding a merchant's ship sailing up river to procure some goods, defending against raiding PCs/NPCs. Making their presence absolutely necessary for one aspect of the economy but NOT EVEN CLOSE to every aspect.

The orc sphere on the otherhand does VERY WELL requiring combat PCs to be involved in a centralized production based system where all resources go back into war. It doesn't need changes.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Letters » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:33 pm

This makes sense.

The prospect of human combat PCs having to roam half the world in significant numbers on a routine basis just to keep things ticking over does not appeal. Been there, done that, and consensus was that it bored people once the novelty wore off.

It's a logging settlement. Its focus should be on cutting down trees. That doesn't necessitate warriors wandering twenty miles into the forest.

Bluh. There's a load I could say, but I'll let others chime in. Good post, WD.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Tiamat » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:48 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:The bulk of admin focuses might probably be better served within skill-based prog-based activities, and be more highly goods oriented. Humans should have enough things to work with that they can produce basic (I do mean basic) goods with some ease, while combat PCs are still highly valued because they can acquire advanced materials for them to occasionally work on advanced projects.


I absolutely agree. However, it's been agreed on Staff that progs aren't to be used in any complexity for ALPHA. Could this be a thing past ALPHA? Yeah, but I wouldn't expect it now. Unless Staff rethinks their policy now, which is their call. They still have a lot to worry about with getting craft sets where they should be, and the basic needs met.

If anything, having a standing militia makes sense only in the context of external threats such as orcs. For the most part, any military presence in the town would be cavern guards or hunters just trying to make some money.

Sadly, the RPI+ Engine is not capable of doing very involved or complex tasks without progs, that would probably spice up producing goods in the wilderness or in town. Well, unless you had a squadron of coders ready to pew pew code all the customized systems. I understand Staff's decision not to dive too heavily into progs, though I agree with you here that it'd definitely breathe some life into the economy. As is, we're stuck to using crafts and killing beasts to get goodies.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Matt » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:24 pm

Being a logging town there should be perks. Like certain quotas on logs of wood so people can be lumberjacks and make coin off of selling them. You can sell X amount of logs to load onto the ship in X amount of time. That'd be a good way to stimulate economy.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Hazgarn » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:49 pm

I think there are some things that could probably be done with crafts rather than progs.

Back during the siege of Tur Edendor, for example, there were crafts for mustering troops, and training them, and outfitting them into objects that eventually resulted in mobs. I think this was achieved through invisible tokens tracking progress, but I'm not entirely sure.

You might make crafts to establish logging camps, which then have to be periodically supplied, defended against attacks, and eventually harvested for a worthwhile amount of resources.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby MrDvAnt » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:57 pm

As I said in another thread, PCs should feel reasonably safe venturing a short distance outside the walls. It's difficult to be a booming logging town without people being able to go logging without an armed guard and a group of 10 people.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby BoogtehWoog » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:47 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:As I said in another thread, PCs should feel reasonably safe venturing a short distance outside the walls. It's difficult to be a booming logging town without people being able to go logging without an armed guard and a group of 10 people.


I agree. If life were that dangerous, I don't think anyone would settle there. There has to be room for non-combat NPCs to do their thing without having to constantly work in tandem with combat NPCs; otherwise, everyone is going to turn into a combat/crafter hybrid.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby WorkerDrone » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:48 pm

More palisades!
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Tiamat » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:17 am

MrDvAnt wrote:As I said in another thread, PCs should feel reasonably safe venturing a short distance outside the walls. It's difficult to be a booming logging town without people being able to go logging without an armed guard and a group of 10 people.


You .. can? I'm surprised people think it's that unsafe. There's like only two aggressive mobs wandering around north of Utterby, and they only show up occasionally. If you just use hide, and scan all rooms carefully, you can explore pretty safely. The main reason why people die is because they decided to take on more than they can chew. AKA, engaging a boar or a wolf and getting unlucky bleeders.

10 people is so overkill. People will eventually catch on that they can explore safely, and that silliness can stop. :P However, if you head west past a certain landmark, all bets are off.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Tiamat » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:20 am

Hazgarn wrote:You might make crafts to establish logging camps, which then have to be periodically supplied, defended against attacks, and eventually harvested for a worthwhile amount of resources.


An idea I've proposed before. The issue is that what you just described generally requires multiple progs. There's no way for objects to dynamically know to stage an "attack", unless you set the object to morphto an "attacked" object every 100 RL hours or something. That's really predictable and boring. Prog support would allow you to do that. Again, not an option right now.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby krelm » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:28 am

Tiamat wrote:
Hazgarn wrote:You might make crafts to establish logging camps, which then have to be periodically supplied, defended against attacks, and eventually harvested for a worthwhile amount of resources.


An idea I've proposed before. The issue is that what you just described generally requires multiple progs. There's no way for objects to dynamically know to stage an "attack", unless you set the object to morphto an "attacked" object every 100 RL hours or something. That's really predictable and boring. Prog support would allow you to do that. Again, not an option right now.


Or, orks could attack it.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Japheth » Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:59 am

Regarding the progs, if Staff ever wants help in planning, designing or debugging progs - I am always available to help. You don't need to do anything especially advanced with them to really bring things to life.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby MrDvAnt » Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:18 am

Tiamat wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:As I said in another thread, PCs should feel reasonably safe venturing a short distance outside the walls. It's difficult to be a booming logging town without people being able to go logging without an armed guard and a group of 10 people.


You .. can? I'm surprised people think it's that unsafe. There's like only two aggressive mobs wandering around north of Utterby, and they only show up occasionally. If you just use hide, and scan all rooms carefully, you can explore pretty safely. The main reason why people die is because they decided to take on more than they can chew. AKA, engaging a boar or a wolf and getting unlucky bleeders.

10 people is so overkill. People will eventually catch on that they can explore safely, and that silliness can stop. :P However, if you head west past a certain landmark, all bets are off.


Well, I do. :p
Everyone tells me I'm crazy though and it's horribly dangerous, so I figured maybe they knew something and I was just being overly risk taking. :p
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Stoneturtle » Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:29 am

Tiamat wrote:
Hazgarn wrote:You might make crafts to establish logging camps, which then have to be periodically supplied, defended against attacks, and eventually harvested for a worthwhile amount of resources.


An idea I've proposed before. The issue is that what you just described generally requires multiple progs. There's no way for objects to dynamically know to stage an "attack", unless you set the object to morphto an "attacked" object every 100 RL hours or something. That's really predictable and boring. Prog support would allow you to do that. Again, not an option right now.



You could have a control mob in a room only staff can enter that rolls a random number every 100 RL hours and, based on that number, changes the object to an "attacked" object.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:21 pm

Going more than 10 rooms from Utterby is apparently not on the projected things-to-do for the human sphere. So, what with fighting 1 wolf at a time with 6 people once or twice a day, we are in fact never going to be able to compete with the orcs in terms of combat.

Not to sound ungrateful, because I do appreciate the work the imms are doing, but what is with the 'oh my god the woods not immediately around utterby are 3spooky5me' animations? I've seen it at least twice myself, and imagine I've missed a couple.

Yes. The woods past a certain point are dangerous. Everybody in town knows it. Only a handful of human players are willing to go out anywhere anyways, I don't think we need Imm-Sponsored thumb-twiddling for team human. You're basically shoving 'sit around and do nothing' down the throat of one side of the game, and basically giving the IMM Stamp of Approval to support the pervading uselessness of the human PCs in terms of going outside and wandering around on a 'patrol' that does nothing but kill 2 wolves with 10 PCs.

And then we get Icarus pointing at Utterby and wondering why nothing is getting done while the orcs are killing spiders/etc by the dozens.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Throttle » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:37 pm

I don't think the echoes necessarily mean "go no further!", but I do think they leave everyone wondering if it's a warning or just some casual enrichment of the environment. It's hard to say for sure when the branch-snapping monster could be the legendary named cave bear or just some wolf. Regardless, the sphere currently gets so few real fighters per outing that if they were to push further out and lose just two or three of them, the whole thing could fall apart. I guess Utterby just need more people to actually pick weapon skills.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Letters » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:51 pm

A PC or two dies to the wolves every single RL day. Assuming your character possesses at least a basic measure of empathy, surely they find that disturbing? They probably know a few people who have died since arriving in Utterby. There's no place in Middle-earth short of Mordor more hellish than Utterby, you know? Unless a character is stupid, rash (and with a pressing urge to kill things) or suicidal, there's nothing actually worth venturing far out for, and this should surely apply doubly with the death toll the forest has already exacted.

Right?
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby Jeshin » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:57 pm

I just want to know something...

1) What benefit is there to Utterby in killing wargs or spiders which are not blocking our access to lumber?

2) Should we not be focusing on player run events to gather supplies from the bog or something?

3) Couldn't we run a player event (once the foreman are created) to prepare a caravan to trade with a neighboring settlement. Then you'd have everyone striving towards a goal that makes IC sense.

EDIT

4) Why don't we focus our superior human brainz into armoring our hunters/soldiers to compensate for our combat weakness!
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby BoogtehWoog » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:18 pm

Jeshin is wise and has obviously lived many lives.

We are all finding our footing here, good folks. Shadows of Isildur was not built in a day. And Utterby is the pre-show to the main event. What we are doing here is finding out what works, what doesn't, and how we can fit ourselves into this world. It is going to take time and a lot of patience. Roll with the punches here. If something isn't right by your estimation, speak up and do it respectively and constructively. It isn't the end of the world if things are whacky. That's what alpha is for.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby toofast » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:44 pm

Come on guys, one sparring match is the same amount of training as going outside and killing a warg/spider/giant snake. In fact, I believe playing a high-skilled pure combat character is -easier- than in the orc sphere. Shit, if I wasn't playing a crafter, I could prove it to you. Alone or with a partner-- sparring, killing wolves, killing boar sows. They can all get you adroit combat skills. These complaints are soooo silly.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby WorkerDrone » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:13 pm

Aside from Zerero's sarcasm, unless certain rooms have been marked "nogain" after a certain level of skill, sparring will get you gains as much as fighting wildlife. Many people might not want you to know that, and timers do get in the way of any real gains once you've hit them, but basically yes, sparring is getting you somewhere, so is sparring multiple opponents and any other twinkiness you can come up with. The only bearing on skill gains that I can remember are the room settings, the number of opponents and the level of injuries you're fighting at.

ETA: Oh and the number of failures you make while fighting.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby tehkory » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:18 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:Aside from Zerero's sarcasm, unless certain rooms have been marked "nogain" after a certain level of skill, sparring will get you gains as much as fighting wildlife. Many people might not want you to know that, and timers do get in the way of any real gains once you've hit them, but basically yes, sparring is getting you somewhere, so is sparring multiple opponents and any other twinkiness you can come up with. The only bearing on skill gains that I can remember are the room settings, the number of opponents and the level of injuries you're fighting at.


Holmes did claim to fix the broken code re: spargains with training weapons, and also trahsquality gains. But I don't know(or think) that that's in the current codebase, especially given all we HAVE are trashquality AFAIK.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby toofast » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:31 pm

If you're talking about Holme's work on the Atonement codebase during Parallel, I played a character in late Parallel for lols and got skillgains like mad while sparring with training weapons, which was even easier to track using the 'progress' command.
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:09 pm

back in atonement, I hit master level in long-blade during a spar with a 1 day old newbie. After surviving fights with mutants, infected bug-zombies, packs of dogs and spec op Phonecian soldiers, it was a practice spar with an amateur newbie that finally pushed me from adroit to the next level
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Re: Projected Focuses: Human Sphere

Postby tehkory » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:45 pm

toofastnig wrote:If you're talking about Holme's work on the Atonement codebase during Parallel, I played a character in late Parallel for lols and got skillgains like mad while sparring with training weapons, which was even easier to track using the 'progress' command.

You mean you got mad skillgains using pquality weapons? Or sparring weapons that I don't remember if they ever even put in to Parallel?
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