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Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

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Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Bones » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:12 pm

After a week's worth of observing things, I felt an urge to open up a discussion on this. It's in Utterby, because I haven't observed Orc stuff. Yes, I know that you are healed to full within a couple IRL code hours once treated. Yes, I am aware that SoI healers are bombad voodoo super guys. However, at the time of the injury, there has been some serious issues with people 'supermanning', 'godmoding', or whatever you want to call it.

X appears close to death: This I have seen on several players. Close to death means you are at death's door, I would think. You probably aren't mobile on your own, and you likely don't have enough strength to make lethal/energetic actions. A small number of circumstances (more than two) where players are wounded to the point of being rendered unconscious/near death. And then they get up and continue as if nothing is wrong.

Severe/Grievous bite to X location: I think of this like a shark attack, bear biting your limb, etc. Or Severe/Grievous slash/hack/bruise. Flesh rendered, POTENTIALLY broken bones, whatever. That is not to say that you as a player should be crippled on your character. But running about etc, is bad form in my opinion.

Would like to hear thoughts from others.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:27 pm

I'll be posting up a few comments on this. It's a realism vs. playability issue, of course, but I do generally agree with you. I've been working on a 'guide' for what injuries mean/represent on the side.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby BoogtehWoog » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:39 pm

Good thoughts. Bones. Look forward to seeing what you have up your sleeve, tehkory.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:46 pm

Bones wrote:Yes, I know that you are healed to full within a couple IRL code hours once treated. Yes, I am aware that SoI healers are bombad voodoo super guys.

Is any consideration being given to nerfing either natural or assisted healing? To adding echoes to indicate pain/difficulty/etc. to the relevant player, if not coded limitations or consequences?

I'm hardly the player to speculate on the effects of any such change[s], but as a player inexperienced in this area, I suspect that the more reliably I can look to code for RP guidance, the more realistically I'm likely to roleplay.

I mean, if the code says I'm fine, lets me walk without taking more damage, etc. ... I'm going to be worried that RPing otherwise will come across as drama-mongering. :?
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Tiamat » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:48 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
Bones wrote:Yes, I know that you are healed to full within a couple IRL code hours once treated. Yes, I am aware that SoI healers are bombad voodoo super guys.

Is any consideration being given to nerfing either natural or assisted healing? To adding echoes to indicate pain/difficulty/etc. to the relevant player, if not coded limitations or consequences?

I'm hardly the player to speculate on the effects of any such change[s], but as a player inexperienced in this area, I suspect that the more reliably I can look to code for RP guidance, the more realistically I'm likely to roleplay.

I mean, if the code says I'm fine, lets me walk without taking more damage, etc. ... I'm going to be worried that RPing otherwise will come across as drama-mongering. :?


Unfortunately when you're talking about the RPI+ code, a "simple" change typically means frantically looking over thousands of lines of code just to make sure the change is reflected everywhere it should be. In other words, it's probably not going to be an easy fix. This would likely take a backburner to other priorities, quite unfortunately.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Throttle » Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:58 pm

The lapse in realism kind of goes both ways. It should be possible for a group of people to hunt a boar without two of them taking severe injuries in the process. Historically, hunters were not routinely wounded so as to require time to heal. While it wasn't a trivial activity, the advantage of weapons and human intelligence is vastly greater than the code represents. As such, the fact that you invariably get injured on a regular basis if you kill wildlife is as much a quirk of the game as the fact that you can recover from those wounds in a matter of one or two days.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Bones » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:13 pm

You are right. But those hunters NORMALLY would have several veteran hunters with them, keeping the boar at bay. Or hounds tearing at the boar's flanks to distract it while they speared it. The veterans would be there so that the youths would be blooded.

Very -few- people have the skill right now to take on a boar and not be severely wounded. When their code skills get up to snuff, they'll be injured less and less. However, the injuries still need to be RP'd out a bit more, I think.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Vwest » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:14 pm

I prefer to let people decide what their characters can / cannot endure, personally.

I'm sure ultra brutal code effects from wounds sounds great for a social player, but as someone who consistently plays roles involving at least some degree of regular combat, I would completely abandon a game where I would literally be stuck playing out a wound for RL hours, if not days.

It might be attractive for people who have all day to play, where a few hours spent half-idle talking about what a badass Maxweight McUltratall isn't a big deal.

For people with careers, families and other RL obligations, spending hours and hours dealing with a horrible wolf bite just isn't practical.

I've personally never seen anyone at near death, carrying on like they just stubbed their toe. I've seen people shrug off some hits, but nothing so silly that I felt the need to make an RP police thread about it.

edited because i tipez bad
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:11 pm

Bones wrote:Severe/Grievous bite to X location: I think of this like a shark attack, bear biting your limb, etc. Or Severe/Grievous slash/hack/bruise. Flesh rendered, POTENTIALLY broken bones, whatever. That is not to say that you as a player should be crippled on your character. But running about etc, is bad form in my opinion.

Would like to hear thoughts from others.


If you're out doing something, and you get unlucky and take 1 bad hit, does "good RP" dictate that you sit down in the woods and wait to die, since you are so grievously wounded?

This is a playability issue, to me. 'Realistically', you'd be put up for numerous RL days, from some of these wounds, or god forbid a broken bone.

On the other hand, seeing people overexaggerate their wounds, in an attempt to cause drama, is really petty. Like people who 'have their bones sticking out' after getting knocked unconscious, yet still walk around.

---Edited a bit.---
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Stoneturtle » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:49 pm

I tried roleplaying out combat injuries (as opposed to sparring injuries) for longer than it took for code to heal them with Ewan when he was a Footman. We had a healer who'd say, take it easy for 3 days or something, and I'd do it. Not only did I miss out on RP, I found that it simply was not appreciated by my leadership or my fellow players, who judged it just an attention-getting ploy that weakened the ability of the whole unit to do their chosen sort of RP. I finally gave it up for playability's sake.

I think just let people play how they want to play with this, or else go with the code. Otherwise there will be a lot of different ideas and interpretations and criticism.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:15 pm

Working on my own post, but I think the main concern I see isn't people overexaggerating their own wounds, but inconsistent play with both what the code says and what their own play shows.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Bones » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:17 pm

I'm by no means saying, stay out of RP for X days, or even after your wounds codely heal, play the gimp. What I am saying, is that if you're covered by severe wounds, or have just been beaten unconscious, don't be jumping up and attacking everyone in sight, or trying to lead a charge. When Code says you're fine? Okay. But let the code heal before you go Rambo.

I think -That- is reasonable to ask.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby MarsGrad » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:51 pm

Bones wrote:I'm by no means saying, stay out of RP for X days, or even after your wounds codely heal, play the gimp. What I am saying, is that if you're covered by severe wounds, or have just been beaten unconscious, don't be jumping up and attacking everyone in sight, or trying to lead a charge. When Code says you're fine? Okay. But let the code heal before you go Rambo.

I think -That- is reasonable to ask.


All of this.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:15 pm

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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Stoneturtle » Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:25 pm

Bones wrote:I'm by no means saying, stay out of RP for X days, or even after your wounds codely heal, play the gimp. What I am saying, is that if you're covered by severe wounds, or have just been beaten unconscious, don't be jumping up and attacking everyone in sight, or trying to lead a charge. When Code says you're fine? Okay. But let the code heal before you go Rambo.

I think -That- is reasonable to ask.


I agree with this.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:14 pm

Bones wrote: What I am saying, is that if you're covered by severe wounds, or have just been beaten unconscious, don't be jumping up and attacking everyone in sight, or trying to lead a charge.

I don't know. If the code says my PC can stand up and hit things (not just by responding to the commands, but by responding to them without so much as a 'You feel dizzy' pecho), then I don't think it's out of line for me to RP standing up and hitting things. Or staggering over and swinging blindly at them. ;)

Maybe I'd get more RPPs if I didn't. Maybe I'd get more kudos on the forums; maybe I'd even get more IC opportunities. But short of bug abuse, I'm not sure I deserve a scolding for following the code.

tehkory wrote:http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1002

I don't want to mess up your beautiful new thread with side-commentary, Kory, but this was very interesting, and I'm looking forward to hearing other people's takes on it, because I find the coded injury descriptions quite vague, and sometimes out of synch with my instinctive interpretation of the number of stars they match up with.

If nothing else, I think dmote is going to be my new best friend, whenever I acquire (or encounter?) a noticeably wounded PC.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby tehkory » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:46 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
Bones wrote: What I am saying, is that if you're covered by severe wounds, or have just been beaten unconscious, don't be jumping up and attacking everyone in sight, or trying to lead a charge.

I don't know. If the code says my PC can stand up and hit things (not just by responding to the commands, but by responding to them without so much as a 'You feel dizzy' pecho), then I don't think it's out of line for me to RP standing up and hitting things. Or staggering over and swinging blindly at them. ;)

Maybe I'd get more RPPs if I didn't. Maybe I'd get more kudos on the forums; maybe I'd even get more IC opportunities. But short of bug abuse, I'm not sure I deserve a scolding for following the code.

tehkory wrote:http://www.middle-earth.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1002

I don't want to mess up your beautiful new thread with side-commentary, Kory, but this was very interesting, and I'm looking forward to hearing other people's takes on it, because I find the coded injury descriptions quite vague, and sometimes out of synch with my instinctive interpretation of the number of stars they match up with.

If nothing else, I think dmote is going to be my new best friend, whenever I acquire (or encounter?) a noticeably wounded PC.


If it helps, I read that as "mess your beautiful new head up."
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby soiacc » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:33 am

You do get messages when you've been shot with an arrow. I found that out.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby WildGiller » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:23 am

I love dmote for wounds. Throw a nice description in there of the gouges, bites, slashes, stitches, etc, every RL day, make them a little less shitty looking, more healed up and stuff. That's usually my rule of thumb.

She has a brutal set of bite marks on her shoulder.
She has a nasty, scabbed over set of bite marks on her shoulder.
She has a faded, scarring bite wound on her shoulder.

Simple and realistic enough without going overboard for me
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby MrDvAnt » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:00 am

So, if we want more realism with wounds then we're going to need everyone playing a physician to do some studying and ask the imms to kill our characters when our infections aren't treated properly.

The most in-depth treatment I've seen so far was emoted as washing out an infected wound and sending the person on their way. If we're being realistic, that person mostly likely died since the infection was already set in. Before antibiotics and germ theory infections from serious wounds often led to amputation or even death. Infections had to be treated with irrigation and poultices using herbs with natural antiseptic properties such as cloves, honey, garlic, etc. Most of the folk remedies were complete superstition and led to unsuccessful treatment, some actually worked.

So, if we're wanted to be more realistic about our wounds, are our healers ready to tend to us for days or weeks while we lie in bed trying to fight off a blood infection or staph? If the healer doesn't do a good job of rping the treatment, do we add red lines radiating from the wound to our dmote and then ask the admins to kill our character for effect?

How about we all stop worrying so much about the details that don't add any enjoyment to the game, and focus on the good rp and stories that benefit everyone in the rp environment?

The first rule of game design is that if a feature doesn't contribute to the fun of the game, don't add it.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby MarsGrad » Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:43 am

MrDvAnt wrote:So, if we want more realism with wounds then we're going to need everyone playing a physician to do some studying and ask the imms to kill our characters when our infections aren't treated properly.

The most in-depth treatment I've seen so far was emoted as washing out an infected wound and sending the person on their way. If we're being realistic, that person mostly likely died since the infection was already set in. Before antibiotics and germ theory infections from serious wounds often led to amputation or even death. Infections had to be treated with irrigation and poultices using herbs with natural antiseptic properties such as cloves, honey, garlic, etc. Most of the folk remedies were complete superstition and led to unsuccessful treatment, some actually worked.

So, if we're wanted to be more realistic about our wounds, are our healers ready to tend to us for days or weeks while we lie in bed trying to fight off a blood infection or staph? If the healer doesn't do a good job of rping the treatment, do we add red lines radiating from the wound to our dmote and then ask the admins to kill our character for effect?

How about we all stop worrying so much about the details that don't add any enjoyment to the game, and focus on the good rp and stories that benefit everyone in the rp environment?

The first rule of game design is that if a feature doesn't contribute to the fun of the game, don't add it.


There is a /vast/ difference between being painfully realistic when dealing with injuries, and straight up ignoring their existence. I do not want to point fingers, so I'll try to stay as vague as possible, but there have been times when people have had major, /major/ injuries and haven't even acknowledged them while they continued attempting activities that no human being would be able to accomplish with the severity of wounds they were suffering from.

I understand nobody wants to RP being laid up in bed for days on end doing absolutely nothing, nor should they have to -- unless for some reason they actually /do/ want to. However it becomes very difficult to take someone seriously if they're covered in serious injuries, bleeding from every orifice, and they left a limb some three rooms away and they're still trying to chop down trees with a smile.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby MrDvAnt » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:28 am

MarsGrad wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:So, if we want more realism with wounds then we're going to need everyone playing a physician to do some studying and ask the imms to kill our characters when our infections aren't treated properly.

The most in-depth treatment I've seen so far was emoted as washing out an infected wound and sending the person on their way. If we're being realistic, that person mostly likely died since the infection was already set in. Before antibiotics and germ theory infections from serious wounds often led to amputation or even death. Infections had to be treated with irrigation and poultices using herbs with natural antiseptic properties such as cloves, honey, garlic, etc. Most of the folk remedies were complete superstition and led to unsuccessful treatment, some actually worked.

So, if we're wanted to be more realistic about our wounds, are our healers ready to tend to us for days or weeks while we lie in bed trying to fight off a blood infection or staph? If the healer doesn't do a good job of rping the treatment, do we add red lines radiating from the wound to our dmote and then ask the admins to kill our character for effect?

How about we all stop worrying so much about the details that don't add any enjoyment to the game, and focus on the good rp and stories that benefit everyone in the rp environment?

The first rule of game design is that if a feature doesn't contribute to the fun of the game, don't add it.


There is a /vast/ difference between being painfully realistic when dealing with injuries, and straight up ignoring their existence. I do not want to point fingers, so I'll try to stay as vague as possible, but there have been times when people have had major, /major/ injuries and haven't even acknowledged them while they continued attempting activities that no human being would be able to accomplish with the severity of wounds they were suffering from.

I understand nobody wants to RP being laid up in bed for days on end doing absolutely nothing, nor should they have to -- unless for some reason they actually /do/ want to. However it becomes very difficult to take someone seriously if they're covered in serious injuries, bleeding from every orifice, and they left a limb some three rooms away and they're still trying to chop down trees with a smile.



I understand and agree, but that's not the what I kenned from these posts. I may have misread and taken it the wrong way but I feel like it's more about someone finding one little aspect of the game they disagree with and picking nits like a chimp on heroin.

I'm fully supportive of people not completely ignoring their wounds, but not supportive of making injuries the most important aspect of a character's story. They're too common and it gets boring in a hurry.
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Re: Hunters, Injuries, Wounded

Postby Jme » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:03 am

Bones is usually wrong a bout a lot of things - but he's bang on the money about this.
4 stars = you've got a bit of a limp or maybe short on breath, but you can make do.
3 stars = you're half dead, you are in fight or flight mode likely.
2 stars = you are struggling to move around comfortably, especially unable to carry loads or move fast
1 stars = you need assistance walking at least, you would be barely able to stand.
Have a Jmetastic day.

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