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Fletching

Postby Nailah » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:20 pm

On BP swap and reboot: Three new wooden projectile weapontypes have been put in, along with the crafts to carve all of them. While metal and stonetipped arrows still require a weaponsmith with woodworking, these three crafts only require a woodworker. The plain-arrow-shaft craft was also made to be woodcraft only, so weaponcrafters can contract out some shaftwork, allowing for a lesser workload and some trade between PCs. Fletching is also now obtainable via forage.

Enjoy the new pewpews!
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Re: Fletching

Postby Mithrandur » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:49 pm

Took a look at fletching myself and one issue that comes to mind

Fletching: build metal-tipped-longarrow
Phase 1: 20 seconds
Held only (Consumed): a $arrowheadquality0 $arrowheadstyle2 arrowhead.
Phase 2: 20 seconds Beginner Weaponcraft skill required.
In Room (Reusable): a broad workbench.
Phase 3: 20 seconds
Held only (Consumed): a $arrowstyle2 $woodtype1 shaft.
Produced: a $arrowstyle2 $arrowheadstyle5 long-arrow.
Held or in Room (Consumed): a handful of $arrowfletching.
OOC Delay Timer: 120 RL Minutes

Both crafts leading up to this (arrow shafts and arrow-heads) are also 2 hour timers, but work in batches of 10. This is similar for the bolt and shortarrow crafts.

Now, I might be mistaken in thinking, but requiring 2 hours for 1 arrow is beyond excessive. Especially when a careless hunter could literally lose an entire 24 total hours worth of work in one hunting trip.

Ain't nobody got time for that.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Nailah » Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:03 pm

Yeah, these need to be reviewed as a whole, I just haven't gotten to it yet, save for fixing the timers for the two other shaft types because i noticed they were crazy. I'll look again soon and do more adjusting. It's on the list.
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Re: Fletching

Postby WildGiller » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:32 am

I've noted that making arrows requires

Held or in Room (Consumed): 6 of a handful of $arrowfletching.

And it appears as though "a handful of X Feathers" no matter what type, it requires 6 HANDFULS of feathers. The handfuls themselves don't have a volume/usage limit tag.

I don't know if that was intentional or not, but as it stands it takes six dead birds to make 6 arrows.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Nailah » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:39 am

WildGiller wrote:I've noted that making arrows requires

Held or in Room (Consumed): 6 of a handful of $arrowfletching.

And it appears as though "a handful of X Feathers" no matter what type, it requires 6 HANDFULS of feathers. The handfuls themselves don't have a volume/usage limit tag.

I don't know if that was intentional or not, but as it stands it takes six dead birds to make 6 arrows.


This is intentional. You have a few feathers, not all of them would be in theory suitable. That aside, as stated in the OP, there is now an opening forage craft (timered) for feathers that gives six at a time. I did this to put another useful, tradeable/sellable object of value IG for the time being.
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Re: Fletching

Postby WildGiller » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:42 am

Ah, noted. Just wanted to make sure.
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Re: Fletching

Postby soiacc » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:45 am

Maybe someone with better butchering should be able to get more than one handful of feathers from a bird corpse? Just a suggestion.
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Re: Fletching

Postby WildGiller » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:50 am

It would make sense that a better butcher might salvage more than one arrows worth of usable feathers from an entire goose. I'm pretty sure arrow fletching requires 1-2 split feathers.

I have read that fletchers only pluck feathers from one side of a bird because of bristle growth direction and consistency of flight however, so possibly not all that much more, or possibly having fletchery in general should allow better feather collection?
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Re: Fletching

Postby Fatherandy » Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:55 am

I'd recommend it making about six arrows per handful of feathers.

Beside the realism aspect, this is also a game design issue. Birds must be shot by arrows. Because a bird converts to an object-corpse that is scalded and plucked (and not the generic corpse which is skinned), it means that lodged arrows are not removable from a dead bird - they are immediately lost upon the bird's death. So, every bird shot costs at least one arrow.

If we only get one arrow made for each handful of feathers, we're working at a net-loss, because it took 1-3 arrows to acquire it.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Icarus » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:07 pm

Foraging: collect feathers
Opening Craft For: Forage
Only Usable In: Hills Forest Woods Mirkwood Mirkwood-Deep Mirkwood-Orc Mirkwood-Valley Mirkwood-
Elven
Usable During: no rain
Phase 1: 40 seconds
Phase 2: 20 seconds Amateur Forage skill required.
Skill: Forage vs 1d40
Phase 3: 10 seconds
Produced: 6 of a handful of $arrowfletching.
OOC Delay Timer: 60 RL Minutes

<#* / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
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Re: Fletching

Postby toofast » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:25 pm

It takes 22 hours of timers to make 10 metal-tipped arrows.
It takes 2 hours of timers to make 6 wooden arrows.

I imagine wooden arrows are pretty shit.

I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.
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Re: Fletching

Postby tehkory » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:46 pm

toofastnig wrote:It takes 22 hours of timers to make 10 metal-tipped arrows.
It takes 2 hours of timers to make 6 wooden arrows.

I imagine wooden arrows are pretty shit.

I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.


With those numbers, you can produce ~10 metal arrows or 72 wooden arrows in a day, and that's without considering the reduction in craft timers with higher skill. That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially given you can do it all at once.
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Re: Fletching

Postby toofast » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:10 pm

tehkory wrote:
toofastnig wrote:It takes 22 hours of timers to make 10 metal-tipped arrows.
It takes 2 hours of timers to make 6 wooden arrows.

I imagine wooden arrows are pretty shit.

I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.


With those numbers, you can produce ~10 metal arrows or 72 wooden arrows in a day, and that's without considering the reduction in craft timers with higher skill. That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially given you can do it all at once.


I can make 10 arrows every OOC day. 1 ooc day equals 4 IG days. So, this craft allows a fletcher to make 10 arrows every 4 days.

The average archer would have carried between 60-75 arrows into a single battle. According to this craft, it took around 28 days, or a single month, to outfit one soldier with enough arrows for a single battle.

lol

I get this game isn't real life simulator 2014, but...
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Re: Fletching

Postby EltanimRas » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:45 pm

toofastnig wrote:I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.

Separate skill-increase and branch timers already exist, don't they? Craft timers should only represent production time.

ETA: (a) the quote, for clarity, and (b) that Matt's suggestion below does make a difference insofar as -- if I, Twinky Crafter, have a spammable craft, I'll branch more or less every time my branch timer is up, whereas if all my crafts are individually timered, I'll only have a chance to branch. (And I vaguely remember a successful branch taking as many as six or seven tries of the Old SoI spammable crafts -- which would haven taken an OOC day to run on one hour timers -- so this difference might be quite a large one.)
Last edited by EltanimRas on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Matt » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:47 pm

If it's about not wanting people to have that many chances to skill up you just increase the amount of arrows made per craft use.
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Re: Fletching

Postby toofast » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:55 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
toofastnig wrote:I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.

Separate skill-increase and branch timers already exist, don't they? Craft timers should only represent production time.


Separate skill-increase and branch timers already exist. I think craft timers are specifically made atm to deter both, mostly branching.

The crafts with the highest timers are usually the easiest/simplest crafts that require the least amount of resources in a craft line, barring a few anomalies.

For example:

Ordinary-metal-weaponcraft: forge weapon-banding
Phase 1: 20 seconds
In Room (Reusable): a $metalforge0.
Held or in Room (Partially Consumed): a round ingot of $metaltype0.
In Room (Reusable): a $metaltype blacksmith's hammer.
Held or in Room (Consumed): a bundle of firewood.
Phase 2: 20 seconds Familiar Metalcraft skill required.
Phase 3: 20 seconds
Produced: 2 of a set of $metaltype1 weapon bands.
OOC Delay Timer: 360 RL Minutes

or


Wood-weaponcraft: make short-haft
Phase 1: 20 seconds
In Room (Reusable): a broad workbench.
Held or in Room (Partially Consumed): a $woodcolor block of $woodtype wood.
Phase 2: 20 seconds Familiar Woodcraft skill required.
Phase 3: 20 seconds Familiar Weaponcraft skill required.
Held or in Room (Consumed): a set of $metaltype1 weapon bands.
Phase 4: 20 seconds
Produced: a $woodtype1 weapon haft.
OOC Delay Timer: 360 RL Minutes

12 hours to make a banded haft, while the production of the blade itself is less than half that. I completely fine with this system from a game perspective, I just wanted to provide evidence with my claims that timers are less about production time and more about preventing easy grinding.
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Re: Fletching

Postby tehkory » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:28 pm

toofastnig wrote:
tehkory wrote:
toofastnig wrote:It takes 22 hours of timers to make 10 metal-tipped arrows.
It takes 2 hours of timers to make 6 wooden arrows.

I imagine wooden arrows are pretty shit.

I understand most of these timers are to prevent crafters from grinding easy crafts to branch/skill-up, but some of them are completely excessive.


With those numbers, you can produce ~10 metal arrows or 72 wooden arrows in a day, and that's without considering the reduction in craft timers with higher skill. That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially given you can do it all at once.


I can make 10 arrows every OOC day. 1 ooc day equals 4 IG days. So, this craft allows a fletcher to make 10 arrows every 4 days.

The average archer would have carried between 60-75 arrows into a single battle. According to this craft, it took around 28 days, or a single month, to outfit one soldier with enough arrows for a single battle.

lol

I get this game isn't real life simulator 2014, but...

But that's not what the average archer in this game is going to do. The need's really not super desperate here. People are going to have plenty and enough crappy arrows and a decent amount of better ones. Seems good to me.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Matt » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:04 pm

Uhm... no. Having to use that much of your timers for a few arrows doesn't seem right at all. Could be because they do so much damage though. That'd be my bet.
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Re: Fletching

Postby toofast » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:24 pm

When people are so desperate for decent arrows that fletchers are encouraged to make 10 arrows for a whole OOC day's worth of timers, I'll start making them. Until then, there are about a thousand and one ways ten times better for making money and keeping people content.
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Re: Fletching

Postby radioactivejesus » Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:46 pm

just beat up newbies and steal their quivers. That's what I do
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Nailah » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:01 am

I'm still reviewing this set. I only made the wooden arrow crafts myself and adjusted some of the timers from much much higher than they are now. I'm looking at increasing productions when suitable. I will say there's a definite difference between metal tipped and wooden in damage though. When you use certain shafts, you can also add aim bonuses, so it's a tricky thing for me to consider and balance.

Of note, when I considering timers, I consider a variety of things. Is it a progressive item? How much time and detail could be required in theory to make this item? What's the skill level? How much does the end result cost? Is it something that might ought to be a more special commodity and not market flooded? It's not to sabotage money and skill gains. There's a balance. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes we don't, but this is alpha and something is always able to be corrected when it doesn't work out in practice.
Last edited by Nailah on Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fletching

Postby BoogtehWoog » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:06 am

Interesting. Thanks for your work, Nailah.
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Re: Fletching

Postby Nailah » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:10 pm

Okay. I upped production values for metal-tipped assemblies. I left the balanced and straightened shafts at one at a time, though, because of time consumed to do so and the bonuses they add to arrows. However, the timers are pretty low for your bank, considering. Metal cast arrowhead timers remain the same, production values remain the same. The only craft left that we're trying to figure out what to do with is the orcish arrowhead craft, which will probably use stones, but that requires the making of a separate object and variable, I believe. I'm talking to Icarus.

Other than that, Fletching craftset should be nice and balanced now based on values, bonuses of items, etc. Enjoy!
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Re: Fletching

Postby RiderOnTheStorm » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:33 am

Can fletching get looked at please? Too many feathers required, timers aren't worth it. Dead birds should give more than 1 arrow worth of feathers. It should be a hell of a lot easier for a weaponsmith to crank out two dozen arrows than it is for him to make o-quality weapons. In the time it takes to make one o-quality weapon, a smith should be able to make a -lot- of metal tipped arrows.

Trying to get arrows in Utterby is currently way harder than getting leather armor and a good weapon. I feel like, given the setting and theme, getting arrows should be something that is infinitely easy.

The arrow crafts should probably be made to produce in quantities of 1-2 dozen as well. Why am I buying arrows in batches of 4 and 6?

A -perfect- arrow should be worth, at most, like 3-4 copper, since it's a disposable item, repeat purchase, and you should be selling them in batches of 24. Good arrows should be worth like 2 copper. And should not be that hard to make. Run of the mill, non-tipped arrows should be so easy to make that people throw them at you.

Good fletching needs to be balanced against good melee weapons, cost wise. If Joe can make a spiffy mace and sell it for two gold in the time it takes to make X amount of arrows, he's going to expect the same for the arrows, and rightfully so. The problem is the mace will last for potentially ever, and the archer will be back in a week. Yes, that means Joe should be able to make like 100 good arrows in the time it takes to make 1 good sword.

Also, I mentioned it in the Utterby thread, but...bow crafts? There is no way in game to get even a trash bow, aside from looting dead people.

A good -bow- should have timers and cost on par with other weapons. Arrows should not.
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Re: Fletching

Postby toofast » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:48 am

You should have seen the arrow crafts a week ago. You're joining the Fletching Right's Movement a bit late.
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