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Weather System

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Re: Weather System

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:29 am

Rivean wrote:The mean day peak temperature for summer (June 15 - 30) for Missouri oak forests is 28.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/cr/8/c008p209.pdf

Also, yes, seconding Eltanimras (I married a smart lady :P) - the forests surrounding Utterby are NOT tropical rainforest or jungle.

Also, since some of you are Americans and are therefore ignorant of modern scientific language and notation, 28C is 82.4F.



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Re: Weather System

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:30 am

Here in Texas we work all day in 100+ degree temperatures. Then we go to the bar for a beer or three after work, then go home and BBQ outside. Just sayin'.
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Re: Weather System

Postby bjg2k1us » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:34 am

Not to belabor the point, but why would a part of Middle-Earth farther north than the Northlands resemble the bayou in climate? Laketown and the Lonely Mountain are literally the most northerly points visited by the protagonists in the Hobbit/LOTR, and everything north of THAT is a barren, frozen wasteland - this is more or less Scandinavia (as Letters, with his usual correctness, has pointed out).
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Re: Weather System

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:37 am

bjg2k1us wrote:Not to belabor the point, but why would a part of Middle-Earth farther north than the Northlands resemble the bayou in climate? Laketown and the Lonely Mountain are literally the most northerly points visited by the protagonists in the Hobbit/LOTR, and everything north of THAT is a barren, frozen wasteland - this is more or less Scandinavia (as Letters, with his usual correctness, has pointed out).


I agree. I imagine our swamp to be a cold, northern type swamp than a humid, Amazonian type.
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Re: Weather System

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:39 am

MrDvAnt wrote:That's our flag on the moon.

NASA’s Mars Climate Orbiter

I'd say something on-topic, but we're headed out (because we live in the kind of desert hellhole where 10 pm is the best time for outings -- and it can be over 38C/100F inside our house).
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Re: Weather System

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:43 am

EltanimRas wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:That's our flag on the moon.

NASA’s Mars Climate Orbiter

I'd say something on-topic, but we're headed out (because we live in the kind of desert hellhole where 10 pm is the best time for outings).



Lol, well that's not our fault. Wouldn't happen if people'd convert.

As a rebuttal....

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx
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Re: Weather System

Postby Rivean » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 am

EltanimRas wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:That's our flag on the moon.

NASA’s Mars Climate Orbiter


That's hilarious!
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Re: Weather System

Postby Stoneturtle » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:12 am

People who are indigenous to an area handle the climate pretty well. I grew up in a very humid area in the Southern U.S. and we were still in the fields working on the hottest days. The worst was stacking hay in a barn loft under a metal roof, with not a breath of air moving in there. I got heat exhaustion once, when I was about 15, putting up oat hay, which is very heavy. I wasn't strong enough to throw the 100lb bales over my head so I got stuck on loft duty all day instead of swapping out like the men did. I wasn't worth anything for a month.

But that was a pretty unusual set of circumstances coming together. Generally people should be hardened to their native environment and be able to function pretty well at their normal daily work.

Also, while sweltering southern weather in the north makes little sense - if we're doing that, I expect the blinding snowstorms won't make an appearance come winter? Remember those things?! I expected us to be trapped inside a lot during the winter.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Hazgarn » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:19 am

Letters wrote:A higher stamina drain pretty much means more resting, because you need to be able to flee from mobs which don't suffer from stamina drain themselves.

Whatever the end result with the climate argument (and I agree with those saying that a bayou climate is kind of ridiculous), this would definitely be a concern, if true.
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Re: Weather System

Postby someguy » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:57 am

LuckyV wrote:
someguy wrote:As a side note, heatstroke has nothing to do with how tough you are or how 'used' you are to being outside. It has everything to do with staying hydrated and not over working yourself.


So your body has nothing to do with that? Bullshit.


The body normally generates heat as a result of metabolism, and is usually able to dissipate the heat by radiation of heat through the skin or by evaporation of sweat. However, in extreme heat, high humidity, or vigorous physical exertion under the sun, the body may not be able to sufficiently dissipate the heat and the body temperature rises, sometimes up to 106 F (41.1 C) or higher. Another cause of heat stroke is dehydration. A dehydrated person may not be able to sweat fast enough to dissipate heat, which causes the body temperature to rise.

Heat stroke is not the same as a stroke. "Stroke" is the general term used to describe decreased oxygen flow to an area of the brain.

Those most susceptible (at risk) individuals to heat stroke include:
Infants
The elderly (often with associated heart diseases, lung diseases, kidney diseases, or who are taking medications that make them vulnerable to dehydration and heat strokes)
Athletes
Individuals who work outside and physically exert themselves under the sun


http://www.medicinenet.com/heat_stroke/article.htm

ETA: I also think that the Laketown region is too far north for heat casualties to really be an issue but whatever.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Songweaver » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:57 am

I don't think this is bayou climate that we're seeing at all. I think we saw the hottest month of the year have a couple of very hot days.

I want to remind you of the supposed distance between Utterby and Vadok Mal; it's about 75 miles. It shouldn't even be possible to get there in one day. This system, at the very least, makes it so that if you want to delve deep you must pay attention to heat (at least, on some particularly days, in the hottest month of the year). I've seen days IG where I wasn't really hindered at all.

It hits 90 degrees, even in Canada and Maine. I've lived in Maine and suffered from heat exhaustion in Maine. It happens.

And getting tired faster in 90+ degree temperatures while hiking around at a full blown walking speed with 50-100 pounds on your back, through treacherous terrain and for miles and miles and miles (even allowing for the already unbelievable 75 mile hike to Vadok Mal and back if a player wishes to walk that far) is simply not jarring at all. You're seeing one extreme right now.
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Re: Weather System

Postby LuckyV » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:17 pm

Realism vs playability.




Personally I'm a big fan of the idea of such weather affects, and I'm happy that the staff are thinking of such things.
However what the staff thinks is a appropriate (and balanced), to me seems like a boss forcing people to work overtime not because there's work to be done but because it's fun for the boss to see the others suffer.

What is the point of making such a weather system that is hindering playability and in no way raising the quality of RP?
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Re: Weather System

Postby Jeshin » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:28 pm

Which brings me in to chime in. Why don't we all agree that 2 stamina per room was to high. As Tiamat admitted. Instead lets propose some cool weather affects that this system -could- implement.

Like what do you think should happen in a lightning storm?

What should happen in the winter?

What should happen in the summer on the hottest days?

Lets get some ideas or proposals for Tiamat instead of harping on heat is real but it affects playability.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Tiamat » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:29 pm

LuckyV wrote:Realism vs playability.




Personally I'm a big fan of the idea of such weather affects, and I'm happy that the staff are thinking of such things.
However what the staff thinks is a appropriate (and balanced), to me seems like a boss forcing people to work overtime not because there's work to be done but because it's fun for the boss to see the others suffer.

What is the point of making such a weather system that is hindering playability and in no way raising the quality of RP?


Songweaver's got the right of this. We're seeing one extreme end of the weather. Even California, generally VERY temperate in the Bay Area, gets a few very hot days in the summer.

Also, I think there's always a sacrifice when it comes to realism vs. playability. It's a matter of finding the right balance, and the system does mean you shouldn't be walking out at mid-day on particularly hot days in the summer. I've found that some players have actually paused and taken the time to RP swimming at the docks. That's pretty neat, and adds to the quality of RP. I've also seen players actually RP the respite that the cool night brings. I think it adds a new dimension that we haven't seen before because players aren't prone to RP things if it doesn't affect them codedly in some way. So I'd beg to differ on the effect it brings on the quality of RP.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Hazgarn » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:34 pm

Songweaver wrote:I want to remind you of the supposed distance between Utterby and Vadok Mal; it's about 75 miles.

It's actually less than half that, at around 34 miles.

That said, I don't have an issue either with expeditions of any length requiring rests for weather. Most of those rooms are about a mile wide, and it makes sense that it would take some time.

My only fear is with what Letters said before: if the players out there need to rest because they're feeling the heat and the wargs don't, this is going to be a problem. :(
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Re: Weather System

Postby likui » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:39 pm

Jeshin wrote:As someone who has spent time in Puerto Rico (tropical island) and lives in Arizona (desert hellhole) I can assure you that by 7am in the summer we're already looking at high 90s in heat. By like 10am we're in the 100s. We actually move our school start date because kids can get heat stroke waiting for the bus. I had lunch with my girlfriend and friend on a patio for 90 min in the shade in AZ. Afterwards I had to drink extra water, take a shower, and have a brief nap because of the heat.

In Puerto Rico which is a tropical heat, taking showers or sitting in front of a fan is common. By noon most people will take naps to avoid being awake for the humidity which indeed does sap your will to do just about anything. Even sitting can make you sleepy.


PR!! *high five*

Representing Caguas, here (i.e., visiting it multiple times). :D

The combination of heat and humidity in PR does, indeed, sap one's energy. I'm from Florida and found it even more intense there. The sun's intense, too, and I've noticed a burning sensation on my skin after only five minutes under the sun when I visited PR's west coast, which is worse. All this combined is not only will-reducing, but also at times anxiety-provoking, affecting's one mental and physical performance. Um...not that I'm suggesting -realistic- IG penalties for extreme heat unless wargs and orcs get dealt the same misery. lol
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Re: Weather System

Postby tehkory » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:44 pm

My concern here(and it is a touch hyperbolic, this comparison) is that it's as if Tiamat decided to prog in weather...then implemented snow in Fahad Jahari down in Haradwaith because that was our setting and it's winter right now.

Which, again: this is hyperbolic. It's summer, it's hot, so it's time to prog in heat. Yes, the effects are too great, and silly for the setting. Marginally extra stamina drain would probably be better, given that we already drain stamina per room anyway. I'm sure Tiamat'll see that/fix it/get us there, and in a week it won't be any concern at all.

Now, on designing a system: the most lazy effect I can think of in a game is "you lose a turn." It essentially forces you to sit around and wait, while nothing gets done and everyone else around you does awesome things, suffering interestingly. And that's a bit of what stamina drain is to me. I'm just not sure how you can implement -stamina- without turning it in to "you lose a turn, sit here."

I liked Mars(though it had a tendency towards death trap sometimes, honestly, from poor building). And I hope we get to a weather system that interesting(though -building- must now be done around the weather system, and -everyone- who builds must be aware of that, else minor mistakes in building become unavoidably deadly traps due to weather code). I'm confident Tiamat'll get us there.

I guess my favorite part of weather code, especially this part, is just the echoes that it gives us, constant and variable and forcing us into this shared insanity of another world entirely. And I hope we see more of that.
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Re: Weather System

Postby likui » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:47 pm

I'm curious to see how this is finally resolved.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Tiamat » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:00 pm

tehkory wrote:My concern here(and it is a touch hyperbolic, this comparison) is that it's as if Tiamat decided to prog in weather...then implemented snow in Fahad Jahari down in Haradwaith because that was our setting and it's winter right now.

Which, again: this is hyperbolic. It's summer, it's hot, so it's time to prog in heat. Yes, the effects are too great, and silly for the setting. Marginally extra stamina drain would probably be better, given that we already drain stamina per room anyway. I'm sure Tiamat'll see that/fix it/get us there, and in a week it won't be any concern at all.

Now, on designing a system: the most lazy effect I can think of in a game is "you lose a turn." It essentially forces you to sit around and wait, while nothing gets done and everyone else around you does awesome things, suffering interestingly. And that's a bit of what stamina drain is to me. I'm just not sure how you can implement -stamina- without turning it in to "you lose a turn, sit here."

I liked Mars(though it had a tendency towards death trap sometimes, honestly, from poor building). And I hope we get to a weather system that interesting(though -building- must now be done around the weather system, and -everyone- who builds must be aware of that, else minor mistakes in building become unavoidably deadly traps due to weather code). I'm confident Tiamat'll get us there.

I guess my favorite part of weather code, especially this part, is just the echoes that it gives us, constant and variable and forcing us into this shared insanity of another world entirely. And I hope we see more of that.


I have nerfed stamina drain considerably from its inception, and am eager to see how this might change game-play. We aren't planning on making any big building expansions in the near future, so Mirkwood will be the playground for now.

Utterby and Vadok should not be experiencing any temperature effects, for playability's sake, which was introduced very shortly after someone pointed to me how this would hampen role-play in the main RP areas. So if this is still happening, please let me know.

And it's funny you should say that, because in a RL week, August will be over in the game-world, and you will all be rolling into Autumn, which is a very temperate time. :P
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Re: Weather System

Postby Songweaver » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:14 pm

I liked Mars(though it had a tendency towards death trap sometimes, honestly, from poor building).


To be fair, calling it "poor building" is slightly offensive (and a little ignorant of it easily being the most dynamically interactive "sphere" ever built on an RPI). I meant it to be a death trap. I'd call that great building! Also, sandstorms and quicksand were awesome. It's not like you had to deal with aggro wildlife at the time.

These things are all about balance.

My only fear is with what Letters said before: if the players out there need to rest because they're feeling the heat and the wargs don't, this is going to be a problem.


This is easy. Don't go to the area that wargs live in on one of the hottest days of the year unless you have some sort of plan to get away. Would you go to the bog in the middle of a snow-storm?

Environmental challenges are a great asset. I think they were great on Mars, but Mars was an extremely static environment, a desert. Every day was the same thing. Seasons and changing temperature (and more diverse storms/weather) would be a very cool element to add to the game here. Immersive.

Numbers will just need tweaked here and there. Nothing to complain about.
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Re: Weather System

Postby tehkory » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:26 pm

To be fair, calling it "poor building" is slightly offensive (and a little ignorant of it easily being the most dynamically interactive "sphere" ever built on an RPI).

I have nerfed stamina drain considerably from its inception, and am eager to see how this might change game-play. We aren't planning on making any big building expansions in the near future, so Mirkwood will be the playground for now.

And I don't mean anything overly aggressive when discussing Mars. In playing Mars, everyone loved the Oasis: but the Oasis was no Oasis, but in fact a death trap where(if a storm came in), unless you played it perfectly, you were 5-7 rooms away from safety, stuck in a storm that would kill any man that could stay in it. So, how the plantlife survived at all was a mystery, and made the whole Oasis stand out as something that just didn't make any IC sense. I don't mean it offensively. It's simply that a very -few- parts of that map were built very poorly, and without consideration for the weather system that the rest of the map was built for. Otherwise you all built it magnificently, and it remains one of my fondest memories, but when it came to the Oasis...well. I've spoken my piece. It was built poorly, and without consideration for the weather code(or else the weather code implemented there without consideration for the room descs).

That's the sort of thing I mean when I say 'poor building,' and it's definitely something you're working on. I just hope that -all- builders remember that, when weather code comes in, -everything- they create is either immune to(Vadok/Utterby) or else -subservient- to weather code, and what seems sensible when built turns into a murderous death trap if built without consideration for weather code.

And it's funny you should say that, because in a RL week, August will be over in the game-world, and you will all be rolling into Autumn, which is a very temperate time. :P

Exactly what I meant. I think most of us are forgetting that temperature is but the beginning, and that the more 'atmospheric'(teehee) effects are going to be in rains and snows. And I hope we get to see things that allow us to travel in this bad weather(the better to -play- in it), rather than encouraging us to stay inside. Mars was great, and near-perfect...but when you start this standard of weather code, it -does- need to be held to as high(or higher) of a standard than most things I think we'll see implemented.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Songweaver » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:30 pm

Totally fair. The oasis room should've been immune and hidden away. Oops. :p

Thing I loved about sandstorms was that you could see them coming (or going). I hope this is the case for any storm-type systems in the future. I never liked the old blanket every-room-in-this-zone has the same storm thing that the code does.

ETA: I actually do think that fog should be visible in the distance, like sandstorms were.
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Re: Weather System

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:32 pm

Jeshin wrote:Which brings me in to chime in. Why don't we all agree that 2 stamina per room was to high. As Tiamat admitted. Instead lets propose some cool weather affects that this system -could- implement.

Like what do you think should happen in a lightning storm?

What should happen in the winter?

What should happen in the summer on the hottest days?

Lets get some ideas or proposals for Tiamat instead of harping on heat is real but it affects playability.


Good positive thinking. I'm with this. We need frostbite, lightning striking people in metal armor and heat stroke for people wearing too much in the summer.

Also. We need a Fire Swamp.
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Re: Weather System

Postby Tiamat » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:41 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:
Jeshin wrote:Which brings me in to chime in. Why don't we all agree that 2 stamina per room was to high. As Tiamat admitted. Instead lets propose some cool weather affects that this system -could- implement.

Like what do you think should happen in a lightning storm?

What should happen in the winter?

What should happen in the summer on the hottest days?

Lets get some ideas or proposals for Tiamat instead of harping on heat is real but it affects playability.


Good positive thinking. I'm with this. We need frostbite, lightning striking people in metal armor and heat stroke for people wearing too much in the summer.

Also. We need a Fire Swamp.


If you are serious ...

I actually thought of lightning strikes, but if they occurred, they wouldn't be a one-hit KO. Maybe a terrible (like 40-50 hp), at best. It'd be hilarious (to me :P) to see a player survive a lightning strike. I considered factoring weight into heat, but I thought that would've been far too restrictive on play and made it a flat affect on everyone. Do we have thoughts on this? I mean, going unarmored out in the heat is ... probably just as severe as giving a mild stamina debuff for everyone, in my eyes. Opinions?
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Re: Weather System

Postby Songweaver » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:43 pm

Lightning strikes should be incredibly rare, but totally possible. When someone gets struck by lightning, it's a big story in small towns.

For playability's sake, I don't think it should be enough to kill someone outright. Perhaps give them a lengthy concussion and some severe burn damage?
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