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Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Justanothacivy » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:20 am

Not really Deviant. I played varsity football, lineman. Let's keep on topic.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Throttle » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:35 am

The unwritten rule has always been to spar until 4 stars, anything more would be considered irresponsible and can reasonably be reacted to in-character as such. People already hurt from previous fighting should also think twice about engaging in other forms of sparring, such as beating on a pacifist opponent or doing a 2v1 with another guy "tanking."

Since it is a bit of an unofficial conventional practice rather than a literal rule, it's obviously not something anyone should go nuts over, but there are good reasons not to over-spar and thus there should be good reasons behind decisions to do so. Doing it just for maximum skillgains doesn't seem like a very sensible approach to roleplay.

Three stars worth of sparring wounds don't need to be treated the same as three stars worth of sword cuts or wolf bites, but it does constitute a considerable beating and, more importantly, tends to get in the way of other activities if people start doing it as the norm.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:02 pm

Justanothacivy wrote:Not really Deviant. I played varsity football, lineman. Let's keep on topic.


It is on topic. We're discussing the reasonable amount of sparring, and I found it interesting that you thought jocks were less intelligent than orcs. No need to get huffy.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby toofast » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:13 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:
Justanothacivy wrote:Not really Deviant. I played varsity football, lineman. Let's keep on topic.


It is on topic. We're discussing the reasonable amount of sparring, and I found it interesting that you thought jocks were less intelligent than orcs. No need to get huffy.


I'd stick my neck out and say that some 'sportsball' jocks are less intelligent than some orcs. They're sentient beings with the best of them being both as cunning and dangerous in a fight as any human.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Canawa » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:18 pm

I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Icarus » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:36 pm

Canawa wrote:I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.


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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:39 pm

Icarus wrote:
Canawa wrote:I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.


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Agreed. Wargs are mean. You guys ever watch a video of an animal attacking something? They're much faster than people(or orcs) and much more brutal. Brutality and the will to win make a big difference in a fight of any kind. Watch a video of a jungle cat or bear attacking something and decide if that's something you'd want to fight.

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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Saellyn » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:57 pm

Canawa wrote:I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.


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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby toofast » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:01 pm

Funny thing is, wargs aren't even tough enough to warrant any complaint. Few weeks back, rolled an orc with peak str and peak agi. Hit talented bludgeon in my first fight. Could go out and solo wargs without taking hits. Pretty redic if you ask me for a completely fresh char.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Canawa » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:09 pm

toofast wrote:Funny thing is, wargs aren't even tough enough to warrant any complaint. Few weeks back, rolled an orc with peak str and peak agi. Hit talented bludgeon in my first fight. Could go out and solo wargs without taking hits. Pretty redic if you ask me for a completely fresh char.



Well, as you said, few weeks back. I believe the argument is now stemming from the most recent "nerfing" of stats.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby toofast » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:16 pm

Yeah, but that's a different thread entirely. Not to mention, it's very easy to raise a skill from amateur to talented in the span of two weeks or less with some casual hunting/sparring.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby krelm » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:28 pm

Canawa wrote:I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.


It was two fully-armored and armed (albeit day 1) combat PCs with heaps of knowledge about the codebase fighting one warg, which is the 2nd weakest aggro mob on the map, after solitary wolves.

Just for the record.

Also for the record, that was just me complaining about it, not "a lot of people," so take away from that what you will.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Canawa » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:50 pm

krelm wrote:
Canawa wrote:I could be wrong about all of this, but here goes my opinion: everyone is complaining that they cant fight a single warg by themself because their skills are too low. I thought this was an RPI based on the middle-earth world. I had not realized that the fellowship that was made up of an elf, a dwarf and a high-blooded human had to run from wargs, but common orcs should be able to fight them 1v1.

This is just what I have come to gather from this thread.


It was two fully-armored and armed (albeit day 1) combat PCs with heaps of knowledge about the codebase fighting one warg, which is the 2nd weakest aggro mob on the map, after solitary wolves.

Just for the record.

Also for the record, that was just me complaining about it, not "a lot of people," so take away from that what you will.


Edit: Removed what I said because it wasn't really constructive. Just a frustrated comment more or less.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby Rivean » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:37 am

Whether or not wargs ought to be lethal (and to what extent) is a matter of game design by way of IC reality.

Whether or not your starting area aggro mobs ought to be lethal (and to what extent) is a matter of game design by way of OOC game balance.

One cannot say, 'But wargs are supposed to destroy all PCs' (which is something I may not necessarily have a problem with) and then expect there to be no problem when you put the wargs in the starting combat zones.

I think if everybody would stop hectoring everybody else about who's being the bigger twink/idiot here, there's an important game design discussion to be had.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:51 am

Rivean wrote:Whether or not wargs ought to be lethal (and to what extent) is a matter of game design by way of IC reality.

Whether or not your starting area aggro mobs ought to be lethal (and to what extent) is a matter of game design by way of OOC game balance.

One cannot say, 'But wargs are supposed to destroy all PCs' (which is something I may not necessarily have a problem with) and then expect there to be no problem when you put the wargs in the starting combat zones.

I think if everybody would stop hectoring everybody else about who's being the bigger twink/idiot here, there's an important game design discussion to be had.


Well, the hectoring ended about a day ago, so let's have that discussion.

When I was learning game design I was taught that every feature should add to the fun of the game, not hinder it. Players are supposed to play your game, not play against it.
With this in mind, I'd have to agree that having any kind of lethal npc immediately outside either starting area might not be a great idea.

Both orcs and humans should have a small area outside from which they can gather -basic- resources. Rare resources should be more difficult to obtain, so it's fine for them to be farther outside and to have deadly npcs in the vicinity.

I don't think we should raise starting stats as some people have suggested. That removes some of the character development that many people enjoy. There's nothing wrong with beginning weak as long as there are reasonable ways in which to grow stronger.

PS - Literally fighting to keep my eyes open, woke up way to early. So if any of this is garbled or misspelled, I'm sorry. I'll check it again when I wake up the next time. :p
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby someguy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:12 am

MrDvAnt wrote:That removes some of the character development that many people enjoy. There's nothing wrong with beginning weak as long as there are reasonable ways in which to grow stronger.


Many other people don't enjoy starting as completely incompetent and unable to do anything related to our character concept until we've spent a couple of days (read a week of twinking hard) enjoying repeated behaviors that raise our skills one point at a time. In the old system, if you wanted to be barely (and I stress barely) competent, you could pick four skills. If you wanted to enjoy seeing your skills increase across the range of a couple of more words, you could pick more skills to start out with. Now, everyone sucks.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:28 am

someguy wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:That removes some of the character development that many people enjoy. There's nothing wrong with beginning weak as long as there are reasonable ways in which to grow stronger.


Many other people don't enjoy starting as completely incompetent and unable to do anything related to our character concept until we've spent a couple of days (read a week of twinking hard) enjoying repeated behaviors that raise our skills one point at a time. In the old system, if you wanted to be barely (and I stress barely) competent, you could pick four skills. If you wanted to enjoy seeing your skills increase across the range of a couple of more words, you could pick more skills to start out with. Now, everyone sucks.


Well, I certainly see where you're coming from, but it seems to me that rather than asking for the system to change, people should change their expectations to work within the system. Don't roll up characters expecting them to be badass to begin.

Instead of demanding to be given more and more so you can roll up a balrog and name him Durin's Bane, try to enjoy starting from the bottom and BECOMING your vision for the character. If everyone can just start out as a skilled warrior or master crafter, then what's the point of having chargen to begin? Or skill progression for that matter? Just have characters start with max stats and skills. The entire point of an actual role-playing game is that you progress and actually earn what you get. If you want to roll up a super-ninja elf blademaster, you can always go "roleplay" in an MMO.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby someguy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:08 am

MrDvAnt wrote:Well, I certainly...go "roleplay" in an MMO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:21 am

MrDvAnt wrote:try to enjoy starting from the bottom and BECOMING your vision for the character.

I despise skill-grinding in game. I also find it weirdly irresistible. Knowing my branch timer is up makes me itch to run away and craft. Thinking failures will help me improve makes me want to fail. Almost everything related to this topic makes my ooc desires diverge from my characters' ic ones -- which in turn makes it harder for me to roleplay even half decently. ('Become awesome at X' is usually pretty far down my characters' priority lists.)

[Edited to summarize: The less grinding I feel I 'have' to do, the better my roleplay's likely to be.]

Roleplay for me is about 'becoming', but that becoming isn't necessarily skill-related, and it doesn't necessarily lead to the achievement of a preconceived vision.

MrDvAnt wrote: If everyone can just start out as a skilled warrior or master crafter, then what's the point of having chargen to begin?

Chargen is about customization. It's about coming up with a background, a description, and, yes, skills and stats that match the story you want to tell. It's about coming up with the story hooks that will give your PC reason to interact with others, and others with him.

Of course, if everybody picks "super-ninja elf blademaster", we're not going to have a great mud. We're not going to have the best stories we could have. But that's also true if everybody picks "farmboy with his first sword" -- especially considering (a) the rate at which time passes in the mud and (b) the rate at which PCs die.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:32 am

On the original topic, if we get sparring crafts, can they please have a failure timer? I have unpleasant memories of being ordered to repeat one of the old SoI2 sparring crafts dozens of times in a row.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:43 am

someguy wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:Well, I certainly...go "roleplay" in an MMO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parroting?s=t

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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby someguy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:51 am

It's my off day, so I have nothing better to do.

I said.

someguy wrote:Many other people don't enjoy starting as completely incompetent and unable to do anything...Now, everyone sucks.


You claimed to understand where I was coming from and then launched into how I was demanding more (when I was asking it to be returned to how it was rather than being given more) so that I could roll up as a Balrog (with familiars) and how I should enjoy starting from the bottom (which all new characters do regardless of whether they have familiars or amateurs since there are no skill boosts in chargen so an identical week old character who has gained a skill point will be better than the newbie flagged one). Then, you launched into a series of rhetorical questions which you demolished as they were based on premises that had nothing to do with the post you quoted, ending with how I (based on who you quoted) want a super ninja elf blademaster (which I don't) and how I should go "roleplay" in an MMO.

So...yeah, seemed to an ignorant, non-roleplaying, power gamer like me that you did construct yourself some faulty arguments to knock down.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:14 pm

someguy wrote:It's my off day, so I have nothing better to do.

I said.

someguy wrote:Many other people don't enjoy starting as completely incompetent and unable to do anything...Now, everyone sucks.


You claimed to understand where I was coming from and then launched into how I was demanding more (when I was asking it to be returned to how it was rather than being given more) so that I could roll up as a Balrog (with familiars) and how I should enjoy starting from the bottom (which all new characters do regardless of whether they have familiars or amateurs since there are no skill boosts in chargen so an identical week old character who has gained a skill point will be better than the newbie flagged one). Then, you launched into a series of rhetorical questions which you demolished as they were based on premises that had nothing to do with the post you quoted, ending with how I (based on who you quoted) want a super ninja elf blademaster (which I don't) and how I should go "roleplay" in an MMO.

So...yeah, seemed to an ignorant, non-roleplaying, power gamer like me that you did construct yourself some faulty arguments to knock down.


I'm sorry you feel that way and were unable to detect the exaggeration used to bring the issue into contrast. Also, I'd like to point out that I didn't say -you- should go rp in an MMO. I said people who don't want to work for what their character achieves and just want to jump into the game claiming to be a veteran warrior with so much experience under their belts when the code clearly does not support such a background might be happier going to rp where no one can actually refute them because there is no code to back up or discredit such claims.

Anyhow, tired of being misunderstood, so I'm outta here. I'll play the game no matter what, 5-7 point starting skill reduction or 20 point increase.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:30 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:I said people who don't want to work for what their character achieves and just want to jump into the game claiming to be a veteran warrior with so much experience under their belts when the code clearly does not support such a background might be happier going to rp where no one can actually refute them because there is no code to back up or discredit such claims.

Well, the main thrust of the thread is about how much grinding players feel is necessary before they're comfortable taking their PCs out into the wilds, not how much they feel is necessary before they're veteran warriors.

That being said, some of us might prefer a more free-form RP environment (a mush, say, or a play-by-post game, or a table-top one) ... if we could find one that otherwise suited our preferences (for a lack of fireball-throwing mages, say) as well as SoI does. So long as we haven't, though, we'll have to try to get along here.
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Re: Sparring, whether the target or 'fring fighter'

Postby MrDvAnt » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:36 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:I said people who don't want to work for what their character achieves and just want to jump into the game claiming to be a veteran warrior with so much experience under their belts when the code clearly does not support such a background might be happier going to rp where no one can actually refute them because there is no code to back up or discredit such claims.

Well, the main thrust of the thread is about how much grinding players feel is necessary before they're comfortable taking their PCs out into the wilds, not how much they feel is necessary before they're veteran warriors.

That being said, some of us might prefer a more free-form RP environment (a mush, say, or a play-by-post game, or a table-top one) ... if we could find one that otherwise suited our preferences (for a lack of fireball-throwing mages, say) as well as SoI does. So long as we haven't, though, we'll have to try to get along here.


I'm terrible at not responding when addressed.

That's part of my problem don't you see?

"That being said, some of us might prefer a more free-form RP environment (a mush, say, or a play-by-post game, or a table-top one) ... if we could find one that otherwise suited our preferences (for a lack of fireball-throwing mages, say) as well as SoI does."

The problem is that people come into a game that is specifically made to be one thing and try to change it to what they want when they're only playing it for lack of something that suits them better rather than because of actual interest in the game the way it is.
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