MrDvAnt wrote:Don't let the critics get you down Frigga. You know how the internet is, people say things they'd never dare say in person.
I'm flabbergasted by your inability to recognize constructive criticism (something I have been fortunate enough to have received from Frigga in the past) when you see it, and I am offended by the implication that I have offered something here that I would 'never dare say in person'. Also, if you've somehow managed to carve out a successful writing career for yourself despite having this sort of outlook on criticism, please mail me whatever it is that you're smoking because I could really use some of that around here.
Frigga wrote:I've got to be totally honest, nothing kills my excitement and creativity more than "sorry but this all sucks" posts. People have requested cultural frameworks, but this leaves me concerned everything will meet with the same reaction.
I really hate being the wet blanket here, and I'm intimately acquainted with how badly it sucks to have an idea one is excited about not be received with the same enthusiasm. I take absolutely no pleasure in dampening anyone's enthusiasm for contributing to the game, and I offer criticism only from a sincere desire to help. These things will not invariably 'meet with the same reaction'. That's not, and has never been, my goal.
Frigga wrote:If you'd like to offer an edited version of what I wrote, and send it my way, Rivean, I'll happily read it. That is exponentially more helpful.
I'll try and send you something tomorrow. I couldn't possibly consider editing any of your work without invitation though, so thank you for asking, and please do so again in the future if you'd rather just see the end product and not the criticism and discussion.
Frigga wrote:I'll disagree with the assessment that imagining simple people can accomplish great things "brings down the scope of the game." I'd argue if anything, it's a fundamental message in both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in the latter where an orphan, and a gardener's son determine the fate of the world.
I think you've misunderstood me and our difference of perspective on this is the root of our disagreement here: I am all in favor of tales of ordinary people doing
great things. An orphaned gardener's son going on to save the world is a fantastic example of simple people doing great things.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Ongull story is one of ordinary people (fishermen, housewives) doing ordinary things (catching fish, albeit extraordinarily large ones, and baking bread, albeit extraordinarily soft loaves). Ongull did not change the world. Or even Laketown. Or even anybody's life. There are no epic ballads here.
Frigga wrote:Further, in the future of game (and thus canon), Ongull is no doubt forgotten, and his glory superceded by Bard of Dale. But that hasn't happened yet. There are no great heroes to remember from Dale, the city burned and the people scattered.
Ongull of Laketown is an SOI invention - who is to say we can't have more inventions that help us fill the gaps? We're asking Ongull to wear too many hats, and they don't all fit.
Frigga wrote:Ongull is yes an amalgamation of archetypes. Really, I imagined him in the vein as if Finn McCool had been a fisherman, not a hunter. Combining into one figure, while yes perhaps improbable is easier for people to grasp and new players to interact with than five different folks for people to memorize.
The amalgamation of archetypes is exactly what is the problem here. Ongull works perfectly fine as a legendary fisherman whose name has entered common parlance and is the basis of many oaths and tales.
But precisely BECAUSE he works so well in the aforementioned roles, he doesn't fit as a figure that draws widespread reverence.
That and, at its root, Ongull simply isn't heroic enough, his achievement isn't inspiring enough, to make him stand out in history as a heroic figure.
My suggestions:
a) Keep Ongull's history as is.
b) Retain also the ubiquitous use of his name in oaths and curses, re: "By Ongull's beard!"
c) Retain a culture of outlandish (and almost invariably made up) stories surrounding him and his exploits.
d) Retain the statue in Laketown, but let it not be the most important statue in the city.
d) Eliminate the wife and the bread baking. I believe every family has their 'My grandmother made the softest bread' claim, and none of them have ever made it past the neighborhood level, let alone on a national scale. It's not the sort of thing people will attest to, since it's highly subjective, at the expense of their own women folk, without at least having eaten the bread in question.
e) Eliminate the hero worship part of the Ongull story. Let him be an inspiration to fishermen only.
f) Create other background characters to fill up the 'hero' slots - the fall of Dale was is a tragedy, yes, but against the backdrop of defeat and disaster, heroism might be ever more celebrated.
I'll be incorporating these suggestions (which will result in only minor edits of your original text, as the majority of the story would be retained), except for the last one, which is a project that requires much more time and research (my middle-earth lore mastery is at an all time low), and sending something to you hopefully tomorrow.
In the end, I'd like to say that I hope you're not too discouraged by this discussion and my contribution to it. You've done fantastic work here, and the Ongull story will go a long way towards enriching our world. My disagreements here, I feel, are important (else I would leave well enough alone), but they are ultimately still small complaints against what is still a large step in exactly the right direction.