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Ongull Adasson

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Ongull Adasson

Postby Frigga » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:01 am

For those PCs who stem from Laketown, or for those folks who are indeed looking to connect to an idea of a larger shared cultural framework - I've posted this up to the wiki.

https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... ll+Adasson

I actually wrote this almost a year ago, and I suppose was "saving it" for Laketown, however - I find it such a beautiful piece of cultural lore that I'm putting it out there now. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. :D

I very much imagine Ongull to be Rhovanion's version of the Chuck Norris or William Wallace or any other person where the legend surpasses the man even into the absurd, though amusing. Everyone has their own favorite joke about his supposed amazing powers and people likely repeat them, even to the point of getting groan worthy.

And for all those Gambling Den dwellers, I'm hoping this official suggestion gives you some more creative ideas for "dirty talk." ;)

Contest below - Submit your best Ongull joke (or swear), and I'll pick the best ones to get added as exemplars to the Wiki page.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Rivean » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 am

I think this is very well written and an interesting addition to the background culture of our setting. I also approve of the Ongull based expletive use.

Not to be a wet blanket, but I do have some concerns:

a) Firstly, while I feel that this sort of common parlance Chuck Norris style ubiquitous reference is perfectly appropriate, I feel that the writeup suggests that people are taking this fellow and his wife far too seriously. Everybody in real life knows about the Chuck Norris meme jokes - only a handful of super-fans actually look to Chuck Norris for some sort of guidance.

b) Secondly, what this essentially says is that our national heroes, those we look up to and admire and tell tales about are not great kings or leaders, or famous adventuring rogues in the style of Robin Hood, or wandering sages, or bards of myth and legend, or a warrior who might have fought and died in some great struggle. Instead, our national heroes are a fisherman and a baker. Not only does this strike me as improbable, it also feels that we are diminishing the scope and scale, not only of the individual PC's experience, but of the game world as a whole.

c) The idea that this fisherman from Esgaroth is famous through all of northern middle-earth is similarly improbable - particularly amongst the Rohirrim who are a warrior culture that take great pride in their horsemanship above all else.

In closing, I suggest that we keep the central idea and the character, we keep the impact on language (words and phrases have a way of spreading - this man need not have been a national hero for his name to become common parlance as an oath or a curse, and most people may only be peripherally aware of his story), but we axe the idea of Ongull as some sort of greatly revered figure, or the idea that his wife and her loaves of bread are so worshiped by the women of this area that noble houses claim to have originals kept in glass displays.

Incidentally, I feel that this sort of hero worship would be very fitting for the area - but that in order to make that plausible, we may need to find more compelling heroes who did actual great things, for the people to worship.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:07 am

Ongull sounds more like Paul Bunyan or John Henry figure than a William Wallace one to me too, but I wouldn't assume the presence of one category of heroic archetype implies the absence of others.

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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Rivean » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:33 am

EltanimRas wrote:Ongull sounds more like Paul Bunyan or John Henry figure than a William Wallace one to me too, but I wouldn't assume the presence of one category of heroic archetype implies the absence of others.


I may be reading too much into it, but it seems from the writeup that Ongull is both Paul Bunyan AND William Wallace. And Chuck Norris to boot.

I'd be perfectly happy if this were a not-too-seriously-regarded element of cultural background. But excerpts from the passage such as the following lead me to think that the character is seriously regarded IC:

Following suit, the rocky outcrop holding Laketown's statue is more often than not decorated with offerings and supplications to gain the heroes' guidance to Long Lake's prime fishing spots. Grave promises are often made at the foot of Ongull's statue beginning with "By Ongull's beard." To prove the seriousness of words, the oath is sealed with a kiss upon Ongull's hand, with the inferred risk of Ongull's terrible wrath from beyond the grave should one prove oathbreaker. Oathbreakers who met ill ends with accidents, are often judged to be receiving his fair, yet merciless justice.



A well-known cultural element even outside of Laketown, Ongull serves throughout Rhovanion as a common legend. He acts as a guide and a goal for the hard working - to be strong, selfless, friend of many, talented at one's job, and to earn the love of an equally hard working and beautiful wife.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Forceknight » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:20 am

Here's my take on it for the contest, sort of a "tall-tale" style story. I got a little carried away. Hope you enjoy!

The diverse patrons of the Ironwood Inn are in cherry spirits this evening; drink is abundant, laughter is plentiful, and at a packed, round cedar table a russet-bearded, barrel-chested man has just filled himself another large mug – a clear sign to the nearby Ironwood regulars that one of his famous stories was about to be under way.

“Did you ever wonder,” the russet-bearded man began, the conversation at his table already quieting in anticipation, “how that strange mountain to the northeast of Utterby was formed?”

He pauses, taking a dramatic sip of his fresh beverage, allowing the surrounding conversation to die down in preparation for his tale.

“"It's an odd shaped mountain indeed, when you think of it, and there is an interesting reason as to why...which I just so happen to have learned of in one of my many travels.

Long ago, where that mountain now stands, was a great lake which would dwarf even Utterby with its massive size. It was famed far and wide for the gargantuan trout that lived in its waters, and one day our good friend Ongull Adasson decided he would take a trip to the great lake to demonstrate that of all the fishermen in the land, none was a finer angler than he.”

All other conversation at his table and the surrounding area was now hushed as the nearby patrons listened intently to the russet-bearded man speak.

“His wife Gunna had, the previous winter, seen an oak tree outside their home be struck by lightning not once, but seven times. When the storm had passed she instructed Ongull to cut it down, and from that log she carved one of the largest, grandest fishing rods that had ever been seen in the land. It was this rod that Ongull took to the great lake, and after renting a small skiff from a nearby resident he proceeded to try his famous luck.

For weeks he trawled the waters, catching many fine fish to the great astonishment of the locals, but Ongull was not satisfied. Frustrated, he traded an entire days catch, more fish than the rest of the fishermen had caught combined, to a local hunter in exchange for a pregnant doe that the hunter had brought down earlier that day.

Using this pregnant doe as bait, which, according to the legend, still bore unborn twin fawns in its belly, Ongull cast Gunna’s grand rod into the centre of the lake. It is said that he sat in his skiff for seven days and seven nights, not eating or sleeping, without so much as a bite – much to the amusement of the local fishers he had outdone earlier. On the seventh night, however, their amusement would turn to shock as Ongull would change the shape of the land forever.

When dawn broke after that seventh night, the locals woke to an amazing sight. The head of a fish, impossibly large, was being drawn out of the water by Ongull’s colossal rod. It had the snout of the large, bottom-feeding fish that are often seen in these parts, but of a size so fantastic that its head dwarfed even the skiff, which was resting on the nose of this massive creature with Ongull inside. From his perch atop the fish Ongull struggled and strained, the glorious rod of Gunna bent in a tremendous arc as it tugged against this monumental creature.

The locals stood, transfixed, as all day Ongull pulled at this fish; the width of the lake growing smaller as Ongull’s mighty fish grew ever larger. By nightfall Ongull was still not done with his quarry, which had grown to a truly mountainous size.”

At this point the entire Inn was deadly silent but for the russet-bearded man’s narrative, the patrons all struggling to hear what they could of this astonishing tale.

“The next morning the locals found Ongull resting at the base of his giant catch, lounging in the dawn sun with a full belly. He told them he had cooked a meal of its gargantuan eyes, using the skiff for firewood, and made his way down the side of the massive creature in the early pre-dawn light. The fish, he told them, was his gift to them….small recompense, considering the lake was entirely filled by this immense, grotesque catch. The locals quickly took out their axes, cutting into the side of the creature and breaking their fast on its flesh. The taste was so exquisite that none thought to seek revenge against Ongull for him ruining the lake which provided so much of their sustenance.

Time passed, Ongull returned home, and eventually the locals realized the perilous situation that he had put them in. Cutting what provisions they could from the massive creature before it spoiled, only managing to take a tiny portion of its impossibly large bulk, the locals left the now filled lake for better lands. Time passed on an even greater scale, generations upon generations, and the husk of Ongulls great fish eventually was seeded with grass and trees, taking the basic shape of the mountain we know now.

If you look closely at the mountain you can still see the cuts the locals made in taking what flesh they could. I’ve even heard it told that Gunna’s grand rod was left in the mouth of the lake-beast, not even Ongull able to free it…perhaps one day we will unearth it from the mountain and make our own great catch, though not too close to Utterby, if we have learned anything from Ongull’s great achievement.”

His narrative concluded, the many patrons of the Ironwood Inn burst into a round of loud applause, cheering and congratulating the russet-bearded man on his story. His cup was conveniently emptied as he finished and many nearby listeners were quick to offer him a new drink. There was a broad smile on the russet-bearded mans face as he lapped up the adoration for his tale, and the evening patrons of the Ironwood Inn were quick to lapse back into their rowdy, routine revelry.


I'm not really sure if there even is a strange mountain to the northeast of Utterby, but there probably is if you go far enough north and east. Anyways, thanks for reading! :)
Last edited by Forceknight on Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Throttle » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:59 pm

I'm not really sure if there even is a strange mountain to the northeast of Utterby, but there probably is if you go far enough north and east.


There's a very well-known mountain north of Utterby. A lonely mountain...
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Frigga » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:57 pm

I've got to be totally honest, nothing kills my excitement and creativity more than "sorry but this all sucks" posts. People have requested cultural frameworks, but this leaves me concerned everything will meet with the same reaction. In which case, I'll just crawl back to my cave and write more crafts. ;)

If you'd like to offer an edited version of what I wrote, and send it my way, Rivean, I'll happily read it. That is exponentially more helpful.

Here's some thoughts though:

- Bluster and clinging to superstition is an established cultural element among fishermen and sea going folks in general. Spotting the albatross as a sign of death, the long ream of things that are meant to be bad luck. As is telling "fish stories" thst are probably total crap.

A less tradition minded person might see it all as bunk, the same as people who don't worry about black cats, breaking mirrors, spilling salt, or not sending chain letters. Some people might internally think it's bunk but go along with things to save face.

- Laketown trades throughout the region, that the stories travel along trade routes seems a given. I'm sure Rohirrim don't tell Ongull stories, they likely tell similarly overblown probably improbable stories about Eorl and how many Easterlings he supposedly killed at the Battle of the Camp.

- I'll disagree with the assessment that imagining simple people can accomplish great things "brings down the scope of the game." I'd argue if anything, it's a fundamental message in both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in the latter where an orphan, and a gardener's son determine the fate of the world.

Further, in the future of game (and thus canon), Ongull is no doubt forgotten, and his glory superceded by Bard of Dale. But that hasn't happened yet. There are no great heroes to remember from Dale, the city burned and the people scattered.

What the people of Laketown have now is the life they have built in the shadow of the Desolation. And I think belief in a figure like Ongull would give them some peace, some hope, in the face of a brutal fact - there's a dragon in the nearby mountain who could kill everyone at any moment, with little if anything that can be done about it.

- Ongull is yes an amalgamation of archetypes. Really, I imagined him in the vein as if Finn McCool had been a fisherman, not a hunter. Combining into one figure, while yes perhaps improbable is easier for people to grasp and new players to interact with than five different folks for people to memorize.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Saellyn » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:58 pm

I like it.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:07 pm

Frigga wrote:I've got to be totally honest, nothing kills my excitement and creativity more than "sorry but this all sucks" posts. People have requested cultural frameworks, but this leaves me concerned everything will meet with the same reaction. In which case, I'll just crawl back to my cave and write more crafts. ;)

If you'd like to offer an edited version of what I wrote, and send it my way, Rivean, I'll happily read it. That is exponentially more helpful.

Here's some thoughts though:

- Bluster and clinging to superstition is an established cultural element among fishermen and sea going folks in general. Spotting the albatross as a sign of death, the long ream of things that are meant to be bad luck. As is telling "fish stories" thst are probably total crap.

A less tradition minded person might see it all as bunk, the same as people who don't worry about black cats, breaking mirrors, spilling salt, or not sending chain letters. Some people might internally think it's bunk but go along with things to save face.

- Laketown trades throughout the region, that the stories travel along trade routes seems a given. I'm sure Rohirrim don't tell Ongull stories, they likely tell similarly overblown probably improbable stories about Eorl and how many Easterlings he supposedly killed at the Battle of the Camp.

- I'll disagree with the assessment that imagining simple people can accomplish great things "brings down the scope of the game." I'd argue if anything, it's a fundamental message in both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in the latter where an orphan, and a gardener's son determine the fate of the world.

Further, in the future of game (and thus canon), Ongull is no doubt forgotten, and his glory superceded by Bard of Dale. But that hasn't happened yet. There are no great heroes to remember from Dale, the city burned and the people scattered.

What the people of Laketown have now is the life they have built in the shadow of the Desolation. And I think belief in a figure like Ongull would give them some peace, some hope, in the face of a brutal fact - there's a dragon in the nearby mountain who could kill everyone at any moment, with little if anything that can be done about it.

- Ongull is yes an amalgamation of archetypes. Really, I imagined him in the vein as if Finn McCool had been a fisherman, not a hunter. Combining into one figure, while yes perhaps improbable is easier for people to grasp and new players to interact with than five different folks for people to memorize.


Don't let the critics get you down Frigga. You know how the internet is, people say things they'd never dare say in person.

I like it, and I'm a self-employed writer, I publish online. There are always critics, you just ignore them and focus on the good.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Troubadour » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:32 pm

Thank you for the contribution, Frigga. I rather like the Ongull story for the sake of my own character. Recently, I was contemplating how my char would 'have faith' and this has given me some inspiration.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Rivean » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:22 pm

MrDvAnt wrote:Don't let the critics get you down Frigga. You know how the internet is, people say things they'd never dare say in person.


I'm flabbergasted by your inability to recognize constructive criticism (something I have been fortunate enough to have received from Frigga in the past) when you see it, and I am offended by the implication that I have offered something here that I would 'never dare say in person'. Also, if you've somehow managed to carve out a successful writing career for yourself despite having this sort of outlook on criticism, please mail me whatever it is that you're smoking because I could really use some of that around here.

Frigga wrote:I've got to be totally honest, nothing kills my excitement and creativity more than "sorry but this all sucks" posts. People have requested cultural frameworks, but this leaves me concerned everything will meet with the same reaction.


I really hate being the wet blanket here, and I'm intimately acquainted with how badly it sucks to have an idea one is excited about not be received with the same enthusiasm. I take absolutely no pleasure in dampening anyone's enthusiasm for contributing to the game, and I offer criticism only from a sincere desire to help. These things will not invariably 'meet with the same reaction'. That's not, and has never been, my goal.

Frigga wrote:If you'd like to offer an edited version of what I wrote, and send it my way, Rivean, I'll happily read it. That is exponentially more helpful.


I'll try and send you something tomorrow. I couldn't possibly consider editing any of your work without invitation though, so thank you for asking, and please do so again in the future if you'd rather just see the end product and not the criticism and discussion.

Frigga wrote:I'll disagree with the assessment that imagining simple people can accomplish great things "brings down the scope of the game." I'd argue if anything, it's a fundamental message in both the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in the latter where an orphan, and a gardener's son determine the fate of the world.


I think you've misunderstood me and our difference of perspective on this is the root of our disagreement here: I am all in favor of tales of ordinary people doing great things. An orphaned gardener's son going on to save the world is a fantastic example of simple people doing great things.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that the Ongull story is one of ordinary people (fishermen, housewives) doing ordinary things (catching fish, albeit extraordinarily large ones, and baking bread, albeit extraordinarily soft loaves). Ongull did not change the world. Or even Laketown. Or even anybody's life. There are no epic ballads here.

Frigga wrote:Further, in the future of game (and thus canon), Ongull is no doubt forgotten, and his glory superceded by Bard of Dale. But that hasn't happened yet. There are no great heroes to remember from Dale, the city burned and the people scattered.


Ongull of Laketown is an SOI invention - who is to say we can't have more inventions that help us fill the gaps? We're asking Ongull to wear too many hats, and they don't all fit.

Frigga wrote:Ongull is yes an amalgamation of archetypes. Really, I imagined him in the vein as if Finn McCool had been a fisherman, not a hunter. Combining into one figure, while yes perhaps improbable is easier for people to grasp and new players to interact with than five different folks for people to memorize.


The amalgamation of archetypes is exactly what is the problem here. Ongull works perfectly fine as a legendary fisherman whose name has entered common parlance and is the basis of many oaths and tales.

But precisely BECAUSE he works so well in the aforementioned roles, he doesn't fit as a figure that draws widespread reverence.

That and, at its root, Ongull simply isn't heroic enough, his achievement isn't inspiring enough, to make him stand out in history as a heroic figure.

My suggestions:

a) Keep Ongull's history as is.

b) Retain also the ubiquitous use of his name in oaths and curses, re: "By Ongull's beard!"

c) Retain a culture of outlandish (and almost invariably made up) stories surrounding him and his exploits.

d) Retain the statue in Laketown, but let it not be the most important statue in the city.

d) Eliminate the wife and the bread baking. I believe every family has their 'My grandmother made the softest bread' claim, and none of them have ever made it past the neighborhood level, let alone on a national scale. It's not the sort of thing people will attest to, since it's highly subjective, at the expense of their own women folk, without at least having eaten the bread in question.

e) Eliminate the hero worship part of the Ongull story. Let him be an inspiration to fishermen only.

f) Create other background characters to fill up the 'hero' slots - the fall of Dale was is a tragedy, yes, but against the backdrop of defeat and disaster, heroism might be ever more celebrated.

I'll be incorporating these suggestions (which will result in only minor edits of your original text, as the majority of the story would be retained), except for the last one, which is a project that requires much more time and research (my middle-earth lore mastery is at an all time low), and sending something to you hopefully tomorrow.

In the end, I'd like to say that I hope you're not too discouraged by this discussion and my contribution to it. You've done fantastic work here, and the Ongull story will go a long way towards enriching our world. My disagreements here, I feel, are important (else I would leave well enough alone), but they are ultimately still small complaints against what is still a large step in exactly the right direction.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Hazgarn » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:50 pm

I'll say that I basically agree with what Rivean is saying. I think the Ongull legend would shine brighter if the themes and the scope of its influence are kept somewhat narrow. If you look at tall tales, they tend to be fairly simple.

And agree on the general philosophy of concrit. Finding someone actually willing to give an honest opinion on weak points in a piece of writing can be damned hard to come by...

That said, I feel it's usually a good to hold that kind of criticism back unless explicitly asked for, or ask first yourself before offering it. Even someone who is usually game for having their work dissected can get caught off-guard by comments that they aren't expecting.

(Obviously no one is really out to hurt anyone's feelings here.)
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:07 pm

Rivean wrote:
MrDvAnt wrote:Don't let the critics get you down Frigga. You know how the internet is, people say things they'd never dare say in person.


I'm flabbergasted by your inability to recognize constructive criticism (something I have been fortunate enough to have received from Frigga in the past) when you see it, and I am offended by the implication that I have offered something here that I would 'never dare say in person'. Also, if you've somehow managed to carve out a successful writing career for yourself despite having this sort of outlook on criticism, please mail me whatever it is that you're smoking because I could really use some of that around here.



Wow, dude. So sorry you're so offended by me offering words of encouragement to someone else, especially when I didn't even address you. I'm also sorry that my "outlook on criticism" which is, ignore the bad and focus on the good, seems out there and something I would need to be high to adopt. Constructive criticism: Not having a negative and aggressive outlook on everything can really make a difference in how your day goes.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:13 pm

Not being contrite about everything would be just as effective for cozy conversations on this forum, too, bro.

ETA: I'm missing the correct word. Uh. I guess contrary? Anyway, contrite is the opposite of what he was being.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:17 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:Not being contrite about everything would be just as effective for cozy conversations on this forum, too, bro.


I shouldn't express remorse that I offended someone? Or were you looking for a different word there?

Honestly, I didn't even read Rivean's criticism, all I saw was that Frigga felt it was harsh, so I offered her an encouragement. I think I'm allowed a little annoyance at being snapped at over it.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:22 pm

Yeah, I was looking for a different word.

Okay but the whole skipping over Rivean's walls of texts is admittedly something I expected. I read about half of what Rivean posted, but I didn't disagree with what he used as a preamble to it, that he wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade or anything.

If there's one thing I can think of MrDvAnt, having followed some of your posts, it's that you don't tend to read/fully comprehend the intentions of those you reply to beforehand, causing them to react to an extreme, despite you possibly not wanting to cause any friction by doing so. You also exaggerate a lot, which is something I tend to do also, but you have a real talent for doing it in a way that'll make people take you far too seriously for what it was worth, which wasn't much.

Basically, read and reply or just don't, you'll cause less conflict.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:31 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:Yeah, I was looking for a different word.

Okay but the whole skipping over Rivean's walls of texts is admittedly something I expected. I read about half of what Rivean posted, but I didn't disagree with what he used as a preamble to it, that he wasn't trying to rain on anyone's parade or anything.

If there's one thing I can think of MrDvAnt, having followed some of your posts, it's that you don't tend to read/fully comprehend the intentions of those you reply to beforehand, causing them to react to an extreme, despite you possibly not wanting to cause any friction by doing so. You also exaggerate a lot, which is something I tend to do also, but you have a real talent for doing it in a way that'll make people take you far too seriously for what it was worth, which wasn't much.

Basically, read and reply or just don't, you'll cause less conflict.


In this case, it's not necessary. I didn't say Rivean was wrong or a doodyhead, he's the one that took it to that level. All I said was for Frigga not to let critics get her down and made a general statement about people online tending to be less courteous and kind than in person, which is a true statement.

If I were to feel like I needed to respond to anything said in Rivean's post, then I would read it.

You're basically telling me that in order to be allowed to drop Frigga an encouraging line, I first have to read what everyone else in the thread has posted, which just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:36 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:Not being contrite about everything would be just as effective for cozy conversations on this forum, too, bro.

ETA: I'm missing the correct word. Uh. I guess contrary? Anyway, contrite is the opposite of what he was being.


It was meant as a mixture of sarcasm and incredulity if that helps. ;)
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:38 pm

You didn't just write, "Frigga, you're doing a good job, try not to let the criticism get you down!" You quote unquote labeled any criticism, which would reflect on Rivean and what he wrote, as "something he would never dare say in person" without having any idea what he wrote. Your choice of words reflects upon what you're replying to, since Frigga's frame of mind was coming directly off of Rivean's critique.

With that in mind, you do indeed have a tendency to write things that involve other people in a generalized (exaggerated) way that might not have been intended too seriously, so if you're wondering why you're getting such negative reactions at times, it's probably because you didn't read and reply.

Not to say that I'm unhappy that you encouraged Frigga! I think if you were just like, I don't care what anyone else wrote, but here's this one line of encouragement that doesn't reflect on anyone else for you! That'd have been fine.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:49 pm

WorkerDrone wrote:You didn't just write, "Frigga, you're doing a good job, try not to let the criticism get you down!" You quote unquote labeled any criticism, which would reflect on Rivean and what he wrote, as "something he would never dare say in person" without having any idea what he wrote. Your choice of words reflects upon what you're replying to, since Frigga's frame of mind was coming directly off of Rivean's critique.

With that in mind, you do indeed have a tendency to write things that involve other people in a generalized (exaggerated) way that might not have been intended too seriously, so if you're wondering why you're getting such negative reactions at times, it's probably because you didn't read and reply.

Not to say that I'm unhappy that you encouraged Frigga! I think if you were just like, I don't care what anyone else wrote, but here's this one line of encouragement that doesn't reflect on anyone else for you! That'd have been fine.


"Don't let the critics get you down Frigga. You know how the internet is, people say things they'd never dare say in person."

I can certainly see how it might have been taken that way since he was the only critic at the time, so for that part I apologize and would like to qualify that I didn't mean it to be aimed at any one person.

Above, I added some bolds and italics. As you see in bold, I said "the critics" which was meant to include anybody who had anything negative to say. If someone feels their criticism is more constructive than discouraging then they can skim over that, but from the response Frigga didn't feel that way and that's why I was trying to be encouraging.
In italics you see that I include both "internet" and "people" which, in my mind, makes it a very general and unspecific statement about the entire online world, not any one person. It was meant to be general, for any criticism she might encounter now, or 20 years down the road. Just a reminder that sometimes people say sucky things.

Personally, I do feel that it's a bit silly that I even have to go into this much detail about my intentions. If I make a general statement and someone gets their feelings hurt, it might be an indication that they did something wrong and feel guilty deep down. We're on a game forum, each forum post should not need to be proofread, edited, analyzed by a psychologist and then sent to a philosopher to search for any nuances that might be mistaken. We should probably just try to assume the best about people's intentions and take what they say in the spirit it was meant, if it can be divined, rather than picking it apart.

In general, just as a rule of thumb for reading what I say, I'm a genuinely nice guy. A southern gentleman who helps old people, says please and thank you, and was raised on manner and courtesy. So if you see me write something that doesn't sound overtly angry and it still comes across as me attacking someone, it's generally safe to assume I didn't mean it that way. :p
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby WorkerDrone » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:52 pm

In hindsight this probably detracts from the main conversation since it derails the thread, but with people coming close to being banned over stupid bullshit, and I don't think either Rivean or MrDvAnt deserve to be banned over a simple misunderstanding, I'll just end this detour with the following:

1) Stop taking each other so seriously, guys. Not to say MrDvAnt was, really, but that these misunderstandings are pretty easily avoided as long as you operate on the understanding that people aren't always being completely frank on the internet, and even if they are, you can do better dudes.

2) Read fully before replying, in general, and if you're going to skip over the context of one person's reply (by reading the person -they're- replying to and comprehending fully what they wrote), just make sure you're only addressing one person in your language there.

Be chill dudes. Just looking out for you.
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Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!

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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby MrDvAnt » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:02 am

In response to the actual topic, I see no problem with folk heroes having a widespread fame. Tall tales about exaggerated heroes have always been popular among the working class people of the world.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:03 am

Folk heroes with widespread fame / tall tales about exaggerated heroes: Paul Bunyan, John Henry, Pecos Bill. These men's fame revolves, like Ongull's -- at least as presently written (thanks to the hard work and creativity of Frigga and Forceknight) -- around the extraordinary performance of what would normally be considered ordinary jobs.

Gods among men? Finn McCool. What's the difference? Well, he is an amalgamation of archetypes; he's not just an amazing hunter. Consider this example of a FinnMcCool story.

Wikipedia wrote:Every year for twenty-three years at Samhain, the fire-breathing fairy Aillen would lull the men of Tara to sleep with his music before burning the palace to the ground, and the Fianna, led by Goll mac Morna, were powerless to prevent it. Fionn arrived at Tara, armed with his father's crane-skin bag of magical weapons. He kept himself awake by sticking the point of his own spear into his forehead. The pain would not let him sleep and then Fionn killed Aillen with the same spear.

So we could go what I understand as Riv's proposed route (although I'm personally fine with Gunna as-is), and scale Ongull's reputation back to something more like that of Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill, with maybe a sprinkling of extra superstition among the fisherfolk.

Or we could write him up the bigger, fancier, more magical, and more heroic stories he'd need to become a true counterpart to Finn McCool.

[On topic: If anybody wants to contribute something as suggested in the OP, but needs a little inspiration to get started, Wikipedia's section on 'tall tales' is pretty fun reading.]
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Frigga » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:43 am

Or we could write him up the bigger, fancier, more magical, and more heroic stories he'd need to become a true counterpart to Finn McCool.

[On topic: If anybody wants to contribute something as suggested in the OP, but needs a little inspiration to get started, Wikipedia's section on 'tall tales' is pretty fun reading.]


I think the difficulty here (and what I was trying to avoid, ultimately) was not turning Ongull into a role that should likely be filled by a character from canon, thus creating the ability to draw in actual Middle Earth lore. As such, I'll take the suggestion to pare down the story a bit.

However, here's two people that we could develop more into our cultural archetype hero-types.

- Vidugavia - "King of Rhovanion"

Assisted in the join venture with Gondor to defeat the Easterlings in TA 1248, and was the grandfather of Vinitharya aka King Eldacar of Gondor. Ultimately this union would lead to the great Kin-Strife on Gondor. This story then could put forth the Rhovanion feeling on that ancient struggle.

1300 years have based between that time and the present time of game, so this would put Vidugavia well into "epic myth" territory and with the decimation of Dale no doubt any official documentation was likely lost. He was the only person to have ever claimed the title of "King" in Rhovanion.

- Fram - Leader of the Éothéod

In a story mirroring the tale in the Hobbit - a fight over a Dragon's Horde led to contention between the Éothéod and the Dwarves as Scatha the Worm declared, "Jewels such as these you will not match in your treasuries, for they are hard to come by." In the end, Fram (after whom Framburg was named by his father, Frumgar) slew Scatha the Worm and the Éothéod took home the "dragon's share" of the treasure, a treasure horde their descendents the Rohirrim still have at least some portion of by the late Third Age, as the battle-horn given to Merry by Théoden came from it.

Which leads to the possibility of introducing themes from the Hobbit and things known to people of the current time IG - how dragons love treasure (Smaug did as well as Scatha), how dragon treasure is irresistible to Dwarves, and how Dwarves (and Men) can do rather foolish things in the face of such wealth.

And obviously, to date Fram is the only Man (I'm not seeing Túrin Turambar as a figure known in Third Age Rhovanion), known to have slain a dragon. (Though of course, Scatha, like Glaurung, can't fly like Smaug does, which does make him more dangerous.)

I'll happily invite any assistance with developing either of those into some legends and stories beyond the canon basics.
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Re: Ongull Adasson

Postby Icarus » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:04 am

I'd really like to also develop a lineage of Heroes of the Dwarves & Dale, as there was a foundation of lore that Bard was able to forge into a true nation.

I'd also love to hear tales from the various Settlements. Even Utterby I'm sure had an original founder who planted his spear into the ground and said, here we make our stand!
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