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Concerns and Constructive Criticism

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Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:21 pm

First, an introduction. Feel free to skip it.

I like to think that I'm a fair person. I played SoI, and I had fun in most every sphere I played in and on every character. I played Atonement, and I only quit in a huff one whole time, and I had fun on every PC and every 'phase' of the game. I played Dark Sands and Armageddon, and while I was never wowed or drawn in, I don't have a bad thing to say about them. And I played Parallel, and I threw my all into crafting a clan and a culture, and did my damnedest to create a reason for players to log in...and I enjoyed doing it. I'm an easy bed.

But SoI is concerning. And all these concerns are related to the human-sphere only, but I think orc-players past, present, and future shouldn't be excluded from discussion.

The problems that concern me are murky and hard to describe. They've been put out over on those unofficial forums(which posts referencing get deleted, unfortunately, so I won't link to them), if often profanely rather than profoundly. It's a -little- sad to see Staff making the same mistake, especially Staff that ought to remember the Northlands blog. It's easy to turn this into an argument over Talking Points and 'So-and-So got special treatment, wah.' And some of this fault lies in players, and some in Admins, and little do I think comes from malice. But we have a problem.

Now, what I've actually come here to say:
Shadows of Isildur is sick. Head Admins create rules, and they create a vision, and they neither follow the heart, nor the letter, of those very rules. The general rule is that we are put into a very specific box, and expected to play very specific PCs, and many things we are told we cannot do and cannot have access to.

And then there are the Hillmen. I love that the Hillmen exist. I think that they were one of the few sources of inter-player conflict early on, and one of the yet-fewer that actually made sense. And yet for weeks and months now every 'rule' or 'vision' for the game, the Hillmen have been allowed to break the rule. People App back into this family, they are allowed to create and build outside the wall, and in every way do they break the original vision and outlines for PCs we were all given. And I don't mind that the Hillmen exist. But I sure do see it as a sickness that certain players are given special opportunities others do not have, that the rules and vision are paid no heed to.

Yet this is not the core of SoI's sickness, though it is the foundation. The meat of the problem is this: most every single Admin 'action' and 'plot' I've seen has revolved around them. Special plots and items are created, revolving around this. Time and time again the metaplot matters only in the context of Hillmen RPI, not Utterby. Not our main play area. Instead it is the Hillmen that mattered, the Hillmen that got the attention, and the Hillmen(and players attached) that failed to bring it around to the rest of the playerbase. The metaplot is Hillmen-focused, when the vision and allowed PCs were all supposedly focused on Utterby. If you wanted to be involved, you had to go out of your way, down into the cellar with a torch, past a set of broken stairs, "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."

There's no rhyme nor reason for most PCs in Utterby to be involved in the metaplot. Because the game wasn't about Utterby, it wasn't about the Lodge or the Ironwood, it wasn't about the Merchant Guard, it was about Read Leonas and the Beornings that randomly showed up on the doorstep.

There's always cliques. But my issue--SoI's sickness and troubles--come from when Admins say one thing--indeed when they go so far as to call it a Vision--and yet pay heed to another. Rules are lax and ignored, people app back into the families they created, and the very focus of the game is somewhere other than where people are put and -expected- to play.

As Rivean once eloquently put it, it doesn't matter that the King of Gondor and the Lord of all Evil are off in some secret room battling, because it doesn't relate to most any PCs in game. And that's very, very, very bad news.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Smooly » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:32 pm

Hoooleeee, just have some ic thing wipe out the camp and push the PCs back in town (or kill them if you want to go extreme) so this can stop being posted about
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:40 pm

Precursor, I'm probably going to throw some names around. I'm not calling anyone out, though.

As an outsider looking in, I feel like this has been blown way out of proportion, though I think some concerns are valid.

From what (admittedly little) I've seen, there hasn't particularly been any staff favoritism rained down upon the Hillmen's heads-- at least, not the kind of favoritism I'm used to, wherein an admin loads Player A a number of items, sets all his armor to AC 10, and gives him stat and skill boosts, while nogaining Player B in half his skills without telling him just because. The Hillmen, as far as I know, actually worked to get their fort and whatever else. It was the same with the Axes, way back when; we put in the necessary RP, got what we wanted, and then promptly died.

I can't comment on people apping into the clan or whatnot-- I know, back in the early days, people reapped into the Axes a bunch, right up until staff said stop, then they stopped. It's entirely possible that a Guide looked through an app, hardly read the background, and accepted it, or, since there's one area where all these rules are kept, someone was unaware of them, and accepted these apps.

As far as plot goes, I honestly have seen very little of it, either orc or humanside. I know that Nimrod has a fairly erratic schedule, due to work, but does what he can for the sphere as a whole. I've seen Icarus on from time to time, and most of the time he's on he's dealing with so much stuff that he doesn't have time for plot. I've barely seen Frigga or Taurgalas, but I know Tiamat's on a ton. So, maybe, it isn't that all the plot is getting sent the Hillmen's way, it's just they're getting whatever little plot there is.

As far as the post on the unofficial boards go, I skimmed maybe 5 posts before I decided it wasn't worth reading, because all it really amounted to was people blaming the staff of favoritism for giving a group of players something they went out and worked for, instead of lavishing everyone else with stuff-- again, that's from an outsider's prospective. All the people who are pointing fingers and calling favoritism clearly, clearly never played the game when Rhubarb, Rhino, Shadow, Sudo, or Cormac were playing.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:46 pm

krelm wrote:So, maybe, it isn't that all the plot is getting sent the Hillmen's way, it's just they're getting whatever little plot there is.


Which amounts to the same thing, unfortunately, though I'd agree you're right. It is 'whatever little,' but in a drought 'whatever little' is arguably more than what anyone can get from a season of plenty.

As far as the post on the unofficial boards go, I skimmed maybe 5 posts before I decided it wasn't worth reading

Which is fine. It is disappointing to see posts deleted over it, though.

All the rest; you're right, absolutely. And yet it seems that being willing to work on something isn't -quite- enough. My concern, again, isn't the existence of the Hillmen: it's the facts of their existence, contrasted against the fact of existence of Utterby itself.

And, briefly, a bit of praise: putting in roles does alleviate some of this, bringing 'the rules' in line with the game as-is....but it doesn't change that we're far from the proposed vision. Or Admin time/effort lining up with said vision.

And yeah, Smooly, I'd actually be much happier if the Hillmen weren't off in their own mini-sphere, but forced to interact with us.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:47 pm

As a note, staff will be reading this thread in detail, and we appreciate the constructive discussion. Keep things civil, of course, but thanks for making the thread.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:52 pm

A lot of the issues raised have been long standing ones over all games and spheres, if anything they are minor here by virtue of the game being in troubleshoot mode and barely having aged much.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Smooly » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:55 pm

tehkory wrote:And yeah, Smooly, I'd actually be much happier if the Hillmen weren't off in their own mini-sphere, but forced to interact with us.


Yar, I was being serious. Push them back in if it's that big of a deal, I figure most of those players are able to roll with whatever
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:02 pm

From my perspective, the Hillmen have stood out because they are different, and they have given some obvious RP hooks for staff to support a player driven story, and staff have seized on it. It doesn't really bother me if they've got a little more attention in that regard, building things and such, if they've put in the time to get it done. I like to think anybody else could just as well accomplish such things, and I also think it's a bit premature to think they nobody else ever will. This iteration of SoI is still young.

The kind of favoritism that bothers me are things like stat boosts and specially loaded super gear. I haven't seen anything like that yet. Keep up the good work, staff!

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Icarus » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:04 pm

Also, as a note re posts getting deleted re the arm board... I take responsibility for that. The links were often posted in other threads, derailing them with one of the more passionate places on the net. I've PMed every player whose post I removed, and placed them on staff boards topside, so I hope it didn't feel like censorship, because as I said in every PM, "please create an on topic thread instead of linking to an off-site board."

So, you might not quite agree with that logic, but that was the logic of, as opposed to outright censorship.

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Jeshin » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:11 pm

Chiming in, I'll likely come in and say something but I originally found SOI through the other forum that is being referenced. I think that outside advertisement and the comments being posted on other sites are important to a MUDs health. Other forums that have threads that discuss or speculate about your game (especially a forum full of disgruntled RPI mud players who want a new home) should be considered when they're seen.

Anyone who reads the Anti-ARM forum will see that I have posted there as Ambroise and I also agree that SOI need to take a good hard look at it's vision and the way staff go about implementing that vision.

For everyone that is curious what other forum we are talking about...

http://armageddonmud.boards.net/thread/ ... ollTo=7278


PS - A quote from before I started playing.

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Real » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:19 pm

There was a day when players would create and see plots through of their own volition. RPIs are a sandbox!

ie - look at what's being achieved ingame in terms of construction. Along that same line if we plant seeds they will grow.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Rivean » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:31 pm

As someone who has participated in far too many threads of this nature, I've started to feel as if things are better left alone, and that one's criticisms or disagreements are cause for more disappointment and upset than any potential benefit they might eventually cause to come into being.

No single staff interaction or admin is responsible for this, it's just a cumulative effect of years of Things Gone Wrong, and my railing against them. And as disappointing as it must be for others to have their work picked apart so that all the flaws glisten brightly in the sunlight, it's starting to take its toll on me, being on the other side of that equation. I really do not like being the one to rain on everybody's parade, I really do not like spoiling anybody's day or gutting somebody's idea. I've also never gained a whit from it, IC or OOC, I have literally never advocated in the interests of my PCs, unless those interests happen to have coincided with the interests of the game.

It's also distinctly possible that I'm fundamentally incapable of making my points without offending someone. I don't think this is the case, but I wouldn't be horribly shocked if I were wrong.

So, I'm out. Kind of. (But not entirely. Hence this.)

The point of this rant is this:

Regardless of whether or not any of you agree with my opinions, I've always been a fan of this game and I've always tried to see it bettered. Over the years, however, things have got to the point where I'm unwilling to contribute, unwilling to invest my ideas and opinions (whatever they may be worth), or at the least, I am wary of doing so.

All vanity aside, I don't think that's the sort of relationship a game like SOI should have with its players. This is a problem, and a symptom of other problems.

So - Icarus' missive from staffland was greatly encouraging. It's also encouraging to see people able to have civil discussions about these things, its encouraging to see people still have the endurance to go into things like this and that people upstairs still have the endurance to listen.

And we need, this game needs, more of that, and more in that direction. I am where I am because we have very rarely, in the past, been able to have conversations of this sort without someone getting hurt or someone getting angry, or someone being personally attacked.

What is Constructive Criticism?
What is the staff attitude towards Constructive Criticism?
What is the staff policy on player input in general? How much of this affects 'vision'?
At what point might players expect changes, if any?
Under what circumstances can the staff be expected to stay the course?
What response, if any, can players expect to receive from staff in response to criticism or input?

I could go on for a while, but I've already gone on record in this post saying that I'm about done blowing this trumpet. So I'll end with this:

If we are to learn anything, it is to learn how to learn, from and with each other. The problem with SoI has not merely been staff favoritism (and as others have mentioned, nothing that has happened in SOI Utterby even remotely compares to the purposeful, shameful excesses of the administrators of bygone years). The problem in SoI has been that there seems to be some sort of unbridgeable space between the world in which the players live, and the world in which the staff resides.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby hobbitboots » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:45 pm

I think professionalism is what is needed, from both players and staff. That's a high expectation when the game is run by volunteers and the rest of us are playing for free, but we should all strive for it.

Think before you post.

Be willing to compromise.

Try not to be too emotionally invested in any single aspect of the game's administration.

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Throttle » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:58 pm

Before the game opened, we all had a discussion about families and what form these should (and should not) take. As far as I remember, the most commonly voiced opinion was that families should be modest and should come with no special privileges. Also, players were given the clear message that their PCs were to be from the region surrounding the River Running and the handful of towns laid out in the initial documentation.

And then we step off the barge and are greeted with the Hillmen.

Now, I think this tribe would have been great if it had been introduced a few months down the line as an open clan. For the most part, I think they're fine as a tribe but are, as a concept, far beyond what the game could handle at the start and far beyond what should ever be granted to a closed group of players. It has completely overshadowed and dwarfed Utterby.

My concern in the original family thread was that a handful of diligent and code-savvy players might be able to outdo and outshine the sphere's native military clan (or its merchant clan if that had been the direction it had taken) if allowed too much freedom and too many privileges. I think that's precisely what has happened.

A clan like the Merchant Guard will be limited by the fact that the players likely have little to no OOC communication, are not necessarily friends, are not designed to work together by default, have a lot of newbies and/or more socially inclined players in it, and are more prone to having to behave in a way that makes sense for hired guardsmen living in a village. The latter is particularly important; it means they can't easily justify running off to explore the world on their own when bored, for instance. They're expected to do things as a clan and to cooperate, act sensibly, and display self-preservation.

A personal, private tribe has none of these limitations. They can (and, in this case, very much do) spend most of their time tracking down PvP and getting there first in most cases, making it hard for the sphere's military clan to actually get a chance to do its job when not invited along -- they have been on occasion, but there's no pretense of official cooperation. Since the PvP in this game is so small-scale that it never really requires a whole military clan, and is indeed usually 1v1, 1v2, 2v3 etc., an unrestricted tribe living in the forest is actually better suited to engage in PvP than a military clan trying to behave like a military clan.

There's nothing wrong with being proactive PvPers and power-players; I don't think anyone here is pretending to be holier than thou with regards to their roleplay. However, I think these players should be better represented within the town's original clans as opposed to an exclusive auxiliary clan that has little to do with the rest of the sphere.

When this is not the case, you get the current situation: the Guard's job has been taken over by a private clan, so the Guard has largely stopped trying. Too many dawns stood in the yard with nobody else showing up; too many instances of reading on the inn board how your job was done for you, before you even knew anything had happened, by people unfettered by the constraints and expectations that come with a military clan.

My point here is that a number of the players who should - and normally would, I think - have been found in the town's native clans chose instead to gravitate towards the Hillmen tribe (whether rolling in with them or joining them in-game) because it is, by design, more readily able to be first to the PvP, able to justify running off on adventures, and free to explore the world without pissing off their clan.

This was no doubt made all the worse by the fact that the tribe and its players have been allowed to do some things that really stretch the limits of what's fair and reasonable. And it doesn't help that the game's plot resources have been largely theirs alone, and have been kept remarkably private save for one PC notably trying to involve others but having little luck because they're the only one trying.

It feels a little too much like the Hillman tribe is simply there to show up the rest of the human sphere, and that this is allowed and supported by staff. I think it has been very unhealthy for Utterby and has been a frustrating, disappointing experience for many of those trying to do anything without being on the friend list of that clan. I also think it has been a bit too easy for them to get what they've got as a lot of it seems to have simply been handed to them. It seems to me that all the support that should have gone into getting Utterby to hit the ground running was instead put into this tribe, and I don't think that was very good for the game.
Last edited by Throttle on Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Letters » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:05 pm

I tried writing this elsewhere, but my post was promptly deleted, and that was while I was being as inoffensive as possible without just ignoring points entirely. Here goes again, I guess, but in more detail, because linking to an external forum where the problems are expanded on is apparently a way to get my post deleted.

This does not feel like Middle-earth. Middle-earth, as I wrote before, handles a number of themes, primarily a struggle of Good and Evil, with occasional grey areas. There's no sense of a daily struggle to survive, or droves of people dying just trying to go about their regular lives, however. That's the biggest, most major problem right now.

As for "Hillmen":

They appear to be handed everything they want. They have been allowed to not just bend, but outright break every rule there has been relating to family roles and rerolling with your buddies and all that - into an OOC invite-only group. They were given a free fort of their own - for the week that the thing took to build, my character was out at least two and more often three times per RL day, staggered across the day, and I never once saw a PC actually working on the fort. Not once.

Now it turns out they're Beornings, or such? And the same person who played the original clan lead apped straight back in as a replacement clan lead later on. But Beornings? What on earth? Beornings aren't even a thing until after the Battle of the Five Armies.

So here's one to staff: will you be allowing all players to establish OOC invite only groups, furnish them with free, impenetrable clan halls, allow them to reroll into their clans in the event of PC death, and allow them to choose their own warped perception of a particular group from any point in canon, and receive more 'plot' and whatnot than the rest of the game combined? So let's say I want to play a great nobleman and all his dozens of vNPC retainers and such from the Reunited Kingdom, after the War of the Ring? That's allowed, right? If it isn't, what gives with the exceptions?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Tiamat » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:21 pm

I make the disclaimer that my post does not reflect the views of Staff. Just my own.

Shadows of Isildur is sick. Head Admins create rules, and they create a vision, and they neither follow the heart, nor the letter, of those very rules. The general rule is that we are put into a very specific box, and expected to play very specific PCs, and many things we are told we cannot do and cannot have access to.


I agree with you on this. They're all stand up people, and I love 'em all, but Elder Staff have a fractured vision of what SOI truly is. And now you're seeing the fruit.

And then there are the Hillmen. I love that the Hillmen exist. I think that they were one of the few sources of inter-player conflict early on, and one of the yet-fewer that actually made sense. And yet for weeks and months now every 'rule' or 'vision' for the game, the Hillmen have been allowed to break the rule. People App back into this family, they are allowed to create and build outside the wall, and in every way do they break the original vision and outlines for PCs we were all given. And I don't mind that the Hillmen exist. But I sure do see it as a sickness that certain players are given special opportunities others do not have, that the rules and vision are paid no heed to.


Essentially, some proactive players decided they wanted to build something. I wasn't on Staff at the time, but this construction was approved, leading to the Hillmen fortification as it is now. Normally I'd say this is IC info, stop posting it here, blah blah blah, but it's common knowledge for both sides of the conflict now. Elder Staff are pulled every which way (at least on the human side) to player ideas, because it's unclear what Utterby even is. To this date, we still lack documentation on what the culture of the river-towns are like, and their worldviews, rites, etc, yet we have documentation on the Beornings thanks to the efforts of Songweaver.

Yet this is not the core of SoI's sickness, though it is the foundation. [...] If you wanted to be involved, you had to go out of your way, down into the cellar with a torch, past a set of broken stairs, "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard."


The issue there (part of it) is that I'm in charge of Mirkwood. I ran that plot. I'm not in charge of Utterby. Again, fractured Staff. The core issue is that Elder Staff need to figure out where they're going, fast, before the ship sinks.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Smooly » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Bringing ooc knowledge into this all..
Could be wrong, but I've only seen one person reroll into the hillmen/beorning clan, and that was after joining the Guard and playing a PC there, who died.

Also the guard was the top group for awhile, they went out and did patrols almost every day, being productive and all that jazz. They got plot and animations when they did so, they all died, clan took a hit.

I think it's more the playtimes of the current guard pcs don't seem to mesh well with each other. You catch some on at this time, some on at other times. And since you need 6-7 to really go anywhere... yea

And if we're bringing up pvp, I've only seen one major battle, and that was a mix of guard/militia/hillmen/beornings/randoms. These other little skirmishes only pop up because one faction just happens to run into another faction
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby krelm » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Again, outsider's perspective. Not defending either or, just touching on some points.

Throttle and Letters wrote:given to them


I've personally seen the logs of much of their construction RP, as well as the list of materials they needed to complete said construction (if I remember correctly, it was something absurd like 200 trees). I don't know about what playtimes Letters was on, but I, myself, saw it happen, during the short times I was playing a human, and whatever logs I was pasted over the grapevine.

A lot of people wrote:Rerolling


As far as I've seen, exactly one person has rerolled into the Hillman tribe.

Throttle wrote:A clan like the Merchant Guard will be limited by the fact that the players likely have little to no OOC communication


Is this such a bad thing? I'm in a clan where I have no OOC communication with anyone else in it, and it seems to work just fine.

The thing is, as far as to my knowledge, exactly one other group has tried something like the Hillmen, and that was the Axes, back in the early orc sphere. They put in the RP, they got their own little place built.

Who's to say that if the Guard didn't put in the effort to build a fort, or whatever, they wouldn't get it? Or the Lodge, or a random group of, god forbid, valleymen?
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:31 pm

So you guys feel the hillmen were handed their camp? What else though?

Orcs did have an impromptu attack on the gates one night and I'm pretty sure the only reason they didn't get in was because you're really not supposed to just show up to fortifications without notifying anyone and start ramming stuff. I'd say it's far from being impenetrable.

I was an orc when building the camp happened so I really can't say one way or another about it myself. The reapping clan leads I know is wrong though. I know that a player died and later rolled into the clan again but again I'm not well versed in all the happenings of that decision. I'm 99% sure there's only 1 PC in the group that has reapped in. The rest are completely different players that mostly joined IG because they wanted something different then Utterby.

Also, claiming the whole PvP thing? There's 3 combat PCs in the entire Free Peoples tribe. There have been 2 PvP fights. One of them about 60% of the group were Guard members, with both Guard PC leaders there. The other one was a case of right place right time by I think 1-2 of our PCs. Claiming they're stealing the Guards job and making people not want to try is pretty ridiculous. How about being proactive, planning patrols ahead of time with goals, and going out in force? Combat clan lead 101. Make rules, don't spar at dawn, you do and you get fined a months pay etc etc. To point at 3 PCs and be like 'they took our jobs!' is stretching it pretty far when orcs patrol in groups of like 8 usually.

The Free People have active and proactive players and I think that kind of rubs off as 'they get everything' but I really haven't seen much besides speculation.

So you think the fort was free, I'm sure whatever admin was in charge of that can give you details and logs. There's only 1 player back in the clan that died originally. As for plot? I can't really speak to how admins do that. Certain admins are in charge of certain clans is all.

Want to talk about free stuff? When did all this 'work' on the western and southeastern gatehouses happen? I didn't see it happen, no one I know saw it happen... does that mean it just automagically happened and was given for free? Probably not, I really doubt it.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Tiamat » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:39 pm

Again these are just my opinions, it does not reflect Staff's views.

Please, let's not make this into a "Hillmen get all the goodies and we don't" discussion. The talking point is important, but not the crux of the problem. It's a symptom, and you're honestly not going to get a productive discussion out of beating it to death.

The reason why concessions have been made for Hillmen, as I've stated before, is because, in my opinion, Staff has not made it clear from the very beginning what Utterby is even for in relation to plot. It hasn't been made very clear what Utterby is even about, or any of the neighboring regions, with a dialogue explaining culture, rites, and daily life. To me, it's small wonder that when someone came along with a vision that Staff DID like (the Beornings/Hillmen), it was let in even though it might not jive well with the main vision (which is murky and nebulous).
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Letters » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:43 pm

When talking about the Guard leaders: the ones that apped in with the Hillmen, received positions with no apparent IC reason, and heaped praises on the Hillmen rather than going with the general town view at the time that the Hillmen should be evicted? Just so we're on the same page.

People keep saying Beornings. Beornings are not a thing at this point in Middle-earth's timeline. They don't exist yet.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:47 pm

Letters wrote:When talking about the Guard leaders: the ones that apped in with the Hillmen, received positions with no apparent IC reason, and heaped praises on the Hillmen rather than going with the general town view at the time that the Hillmen should be evicted? Just so we're on the same page.

People keep saying Beornings. Beornings are not a thing at this point in Middle-earth's timeline. They don't exist yet.


Yea, I felt pretty negative about that myself when it happened. Those same people aren't even allowed in the camp/associated with it anymore either. I don't want to get into individual PCs either but if you had access to read backgrounds I think you'd have a better understanding of the whole picture.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:48 pm

Matt wrote:There's only 1 player back in the clan that died originally.

And yet, it's significant--it's as if Krelm had rerolled from Faust to head of the RFC, if you had rerolled from Bruce to head of the Wilmingtons, if I had rerolled from Jozefat to head of the Reds again(with maybe a temporary PC inbetween). It's still significant that someone was allowed to reroll into the same 'family,' head-of, openly against the stated rules.

It's a concern. I don't much care that the Hillmen get attention, or that they get a place to play. I'm all for the Hillmen, 100%. I'm just not for the Hillmen being utterly exempt from the rules, nor them being the focus despite the game's stated vision. And yeah, I'm not against the Hillmen plots. I'm just against those being the only damn plots in the game(and, though I enjoyed them, the focus of 'Mirkwood' should not settle on the Hillmen. Even if it makes IC sense, it doesn't make sense for the -vision- of the game, nor the health of it).

And no, none of this is like Rhino, or Bones, or Kite and Rhubarb. But neither does that make it okay. Nor has a single person raised any of those names up as a point of concern.
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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Letters » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:50 pm

I thought Rhino did fantastically given that he was sort of stuck as the lone RPA for a few months.

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Re: Concerns and Constructive Criticism

Postby Matt » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:53 pm

tehkory wrote:
Matt wrote:There's only 1 player back in the clan that died originally.

And yet, it's significant--it's as if Krelm had rerolled from Faust to head of the RFC, if you had rerolled from Bruce to head of the Wilmingtons, if I had rerolled from Jozefat to head of the Reds again(with maybe a temporary PC inbetween). It's still significant that someone was allowed to reroll into the same 'family,' head-of, openly against the stated rules.

It's a concern. I don't much care that the Hillmen get attention, or that they get a place to play. I'm all for the Hillmen, 100%. I'm just not for the Hillmen being utterly exempt from the rules, nor them being the focus despite the game's stated vision. And yeah, I'm not against the Hillmen plots. I'm just against those being the only damn plots in the game(and, though I enjoyed them, the focus of 'Mirkwood' should not settle on the Hillmen. Even if it makes IC sense, it doesn't make sense for the -vision- of the game, nor the health of it).

And no, none of this is like Rhino, or Bones, or Kite and Rhubarb. But neither does that make it okay. Nor has a single person raised any of those names up as a point of concern.


I understand where you're coming from and I would agree with you but that's not exactly what happened. Pof Bjarndyr wasn't the leader of the original hillmen group. He was the one that wrote the docs and was a pretty well-known hillmen PC in the past, yes. But just because everyone knows the PCs the fingers are pointed at him.

Also Bjarndyr wasn't supposed to be the current clan lead, Haearn was. But he stopped playing for whatever reason.
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