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scout copse-for-tree as an example

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scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby mongwen » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:57 am

First, how long does it take a consumed copse to repopulate? They only seem to have maybe four uses each. Second, they should not be partially consumed if, to use this example, you never set axe to tree. This should also go for any other similar craft where nothing's actually used up in the event of a craft failure. It's an easy thing to fix, seemingly. If you have the consumption in the first phases of the craft, you could just set the first object call to reuseable for emoting purposes as the craft runs, then set the partial consumption for later on when you pass whatever check the craft is requiring.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby Frigga » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:27 am

- Consumed copses repopulate when someone searches out a new one.

- We had a great deal of back and forth on this topic when the crafts were first designed, in the end, we decided for economic reasons you cannot have one tree able to produce an endless supply of items and then in addition produce valuable lumber for export.

I'm actually working on some of the food producing tree items as we speak. So, I'll consider this.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:33 am

Frigga wrote:- Consumed copses repopulate when someone searches out a new one.

Specifically, I believe this means lumberjacks can't effectively scout their own copses unless they also have the forage skill.

Frigga wrote:We had a great deal of back and forth on this topic when the crafts were first designed, in the end, we decided for economic reasons you cannot have one tree able to produce an endless supply of items and then in addition produce valuable lumber for export.

If I understand Mongwen correctly, she's not objecting to trees being consumed by the crafts that gather items from them, but rather to copses being consumed by loggers failing to find trees in them.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby ThinkTwice » Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:12 pm

Failing to find *suitable trees in them.

"All these trees are too small, that one is diseased, the wood from this would be crap ... "
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby EltanimRas » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:30 pm

ThinkTwice wrote:Failing to find *suitable trees in them.

"All these trees are too small, that one is diseased, the wood from this would be crap ... "

This would make perfect sense if it were a pure chance roll. It's a bit weird for a skill one, though -- you'd think your unskilled logger couldn't find the good trees that were there, not that he was so awful he made trees diseased just by looking at them. :P

That said, you don't want people just repeating the craft however many times it takes to succeed, because that'd be silly. Using up the copse is one way to handle it; if we don't do that, then we at least need a significant failure timer.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby mongwen » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:10 pm

Frigga wrote:
- We had a great deal of back and forth on this topic when the crafts were first designed, in the end, we decided for economic reasons you cannot have one tree able to produce an endless supply of items and then in addition produce valuable lumber for export.

I'm not asking to produce anything extra from a copse, so that's not relevant if I'm understanding you, though a copse is undeniably more than four trees so its use value should be boosted, if you want to talk about resources. I'm saying unless you begin to chop down a tree, the copse shouldn't have a use taken. If you don't touch the tree, no harm done, nothing consumed. That's just logic.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby Frigga » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:26 am

Specifically, I believe this means lumberjacks can't effectively scout their own copses unless they also have the forage skill.


Lumberjacks should also pick Forage, yes. But - given that "Woodcraft" covers both the finding and then use of said trees, having another skill going with it seems apt.

I'll ponder a non-forage craft(s) for Timberwrights to look for trees.

It's a bit weird for a skill one, though -- you'd think your unskilled logger couldn't find the good trees that were there, not that he was so awful he made trees diseased just by looking at them. :P


Are we talking about the scout copse-tree craft here?

We could add a prog to this craft that has a random chance rather than a skillcheck, but - that would remove this skill giving skillchecks.

Otherwise, we could ponder a way to reword the echoes.

I'm not asking to produce anything extra from a copse, so that's not relevant if I'm understanding you, though a copse is undeniably more than four trees so its use value should be boosted, if you want to talk about resources


Considering the amount of lumber we see people managing to bring in, it really doesn't seem like the copse uses need to be boosted. And think about it this way - this isn't about how many trees are found, it's about how many of -this particular type tree- are found.

It is Mirkwood after all, it's all a mushy mix of a bit of everything, rather than 500 crabapple trees standing nicely side by side.

I'm saying unless you begin to chop down a tree, the copse shouldn't have a use taken. If you don't touch the tree, no harm done, nothing consumed. That's just logic.


I might look into splitting the difference here and having crafts that produce non-lumber materials leave a bare tree that can be harvested for a log.

Thus rewarding joint trips that bring allow skilled foragers to gather non-lumber resources (berries, etc) before the tree is chopped. If you chop the tree without gathering things, well - too bad. ;)

But - you still need to have gathering crafts "use" the copse up, otherwise, people can simply "stop" the craft to get skill bumps without any cost or loss of materials.
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Re: scout copse-for-tree as an example

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:26 am

Frigga wrote:
Specifically, I believe this means lumberjacks can't effectively scout their own copses unless they also have the forage skill.


But - you still need to have gathering crafts "use" the copse up, otherwise, people can simply "stop" the craft to get skill bumps without any cost or loss of materials.


Not if you put the relevant timers at zero seconds, Frigga. Not to insinuate that the cost/loss of materials argument isn't valuable elsewhere, and the skill bump one equally so, but the material loss doesn't exist for this craft, and the skill bump one stops mattering once you set the right timers at zero. I'll post a fixed up craft after work as an example.
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