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Policy: Teach Command Usage

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Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Rivean » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:01 pm

What's the policy on this? In previous iterations of the game, there was a fairly well defined procedure on what constituted a properly RP'd lesson, at the end of which the use of the teach command was sanctioned. In extreme cases, logs were submitted to admins, but in all cases, the teaching sessions were required to be logged.

I'm not entirely sure I have a suggestion on what exactly the policy for SOI3 ought to be, but one emote spam teach (which is a current in game phenomenon, at least one instance of which was seen recently) is something that leaves me growling.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby ThinkTwice » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:18 pm

From my understanding of what teach does, which is that it passes on a very low number of skill points from teacher to student dependant upon skill difference between the two and factoring for intelligence, submitting logs to the admins every time the teach command is used seems a little ... over the top. Staff are having trouble keeping up with support tickets, and now we want to send them 85 teaching logs? :P

If you think someone is abusing the teach command, report it and roll on. Bureaucracying this to death is a bad idea.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Rivean » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:56 pm

I'm certainly not advocating any such policy (I didn't necessarily approve of the old one), but reports can only be made after the admins provide some sort of guidelines for how this command is to be used.

Plainly, I have some opinions on this, but I'm happy with whatever's put forward, and I disapprove of too much red tape but DO approve of some actual lesson RP.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby hobbitboots » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:20 pm

A good lesson is something that I know it when I see it, but it's hard to put an exact specification on how many emotes it takes. Agreed, never seen a one emote lesson that was satisfying.

What do you have in mind, Rivean?
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Rivean » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:46 pm

I'm not interested in judging the quality of people's RP only that some attempt is made to RP at all.

In the old days, a RL hour's lesson was considered standard, but I thought that was excessive. I think 15 - 20 minutes is very reasonable.

Regardless of content, I think some attempt should be made to teach and learn, ie that there should be some exchange of information, some questions asked by the learner, or some interaction on their part too.

Also, multiple lessons with a teach command at the end of each spaced out over a week or two RL makes sense too, specially for complex things like languages and scripts.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:21 am

So, having acquired a bit more experience with the SoI3 teach command, I get the impression it's not what it used to be:

1. A single teach no longer appears sufficient to open a skill to the point where it's visible on one's skillsheet and one can access associated crafts. [Edit, note: The exceptions to this may be more common than I originally thought; see later posts in the thread.]

2. Most skills don't require a successful teach to open anymore, since we can now 'learn by doing' -- which also makes a teach a less momentous event.

3. Either I'm unlucky, or the command doesn't have a great success rate, even for PCs with decent int.

Skills also seem terribly slow to increase on their own, though this may be only because I was an awful twink in SoI2 and have gotten lazy in my old age. Either way, the idea of an apprenticeship involving repeated use of coded teaching sounds much more reasonable to me now than it used to.

Given all of this, I'm not too concerned about the length of a teaching scene in either emotes or time, so long as there's some genuine back-and-forth and at least a little color to it.
Last edited by EltanimRas on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Raukran » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:33 am

EltanimRas wrote:So, having acquired a bit more experience with the SoI3 teach command, I get the impression it's not what it used to be:

1. A single teach no longer appears sufficient to open a skill to the point where it's visible on one's skillsheet and one can access associated crafts.

2. Most skills don't require a successful teach to open anymore, since we can now 'learn by doing' -- which also makes a teach a less momentous event.

3. Either I'm unlucky, or the command doesn't have a great success rate, even for PCs with decent int.

Skills also seem terribly slow to increase on their own, though this may be only because I was a terrible twink in SoI2 and have gotten lazy in my old age. Either way, the idea of an apprentice involved repeated use of coded teaching sounds much more reasonable to me now than it used to.

Given all of this, I'm not too concerned about the length of a teaching scene in either emotes or time, so long as there's some genuine back-and-forth and at least a little color to it.


Thank you for this reasonable assessment. Also, when I fail 3/4 of my teaches, I don't make each and every teach a long session. I'm much more likely to do a beginning emote or two to begin the lesson, and depending on if it succeeds or fails, I'll draw it out a bit longer. Coming up with new ways to teach the same lesson is exhausting, especially with the failure rate. So I personally treat my series of short teaching lessons as a cumulative effort, and once it finally works, I treat it as the words finally sinking in.

Anyhow, that's my view on it. I've done quite a bit of teaching, and if someone is willing to RP with me instead of just idling in the room in hopes of getting a teach tossed their way, I'm pretty cool with whatever.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Bri » Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:07 pm

I've always held a pretty high standard for teaching anything. Specific crafts are much easier to pick up than whole skill sets in my opinion. So one session (how long depends on both parties involved and how complicated said craft being taught is) could vary in length and depth to learn a single craft. Now, if its a whole skill set I tend to err on the side of caution and make said pupils endure 3 in depth teaching sessions, ie going over 3 different crafts related to beginner skills in that skill set before I would attempt a teach of the skill set. I will not go around and toss out an entire skill set over one teaching session (except for maybe fishing cause I seriously don't know why its its own skill set). This will provoke more rp and will ensure the person is really dedicated to getting the set instead of just trying to get a new skill set simply because they are bored. Granted, if it doesn't take then there are plenty of crafts in that set to attempt to show the learner in order to further their education and attempt a teach with each new lesson following.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby EltanimRas » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:15 pm

Also 4. The overall skill point cap from intelligence limits the amount of skill-collecting fun any one PC can really enjoy anyway.

But, yeah, teaching something like armorcrafting is different from teaching fishing (or bludgeon, or hide, or haggle). And teaching a skill from scratch is different from giving your student a few pointers on one they're already using.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby ThinkTwice » Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:24 pm

I feel like I'm a little more on the laissez-faire end of this discussion. At the end of the day, I don't usually enjoy teaching RP (few notable exceptions, you know who you are. :twisted: ) and I have my suspicions about the student's same. With it taking potentially so many uses of the teach command for the student to actually get something useful out of it, I've been pretty free with mine. Typically, a short demonstration, an emote or two on my part, emote or two on their part, boom, teach command.

3 lessons per teach command seems ... very lengthy, for the return I'm getting.

Note: The above refers to opening skills, not teaching crafts. That's a different beast.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Bri » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:27 pm

EltanimRas wrote:3 lessons per teach command seems ... very lengthy, for the return I'm getting.


I think you might have misunderstood me. For teaching a skill set, I do not give the initial attempt to teach till the third lesson. There is an attempt every subsequent lesson attempt there after. My thing is, what if that first teach you miraculously give them the whole armor crafting set after only showing them how to stitch up a hole in a pair of gloves? How are they supposed to know how to cut out the fabric and piece together the fittings for an entire hauberk from that one lesson? So you give them three separate lessons, how to patch a whole, show them a pair of leggings and possibly a coif. Then they have a general idea of the skill set before you start trying to see if they have retained enough to actually be able to do it themselves. Teaching isn't always the funnest thing, but its better than idling in the Tavern, waiting for someone to stir the pot. And its up to both the teacher and the student to make it interesting. Put other rp into it other than just the simple teaching, make it personal. Tease them about how they are going to be lucky if they don't accidentally chop off a finger trying to cut through the leather or something. Teaching doesn't have to be dull. If you do it right, it can be a rather entertaining experience.

As for single crafts, yeah, one lesson is good.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:59 pm

Bri wrote:My thing is, what if that first teach you miraculously give them the whole armor crafting set after only showing them how to stitch up a hole in a pair of gloves?

if anyone can get someone up to beginner in a single teach when they have no prior skillpoints, I will give said person a cheesebun. That stuff just doesn't happen, even with peak int pc's teaching other peak int pc's
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Matt » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:01 pm

Actually it does happen. I've gotten 2 skills on my current PC 1 point below beginner on one teach. I know this because as soon as I was taught I had the crafts available and as soon as I used one I was at beginner.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Droll » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:31 pm

Matt wrote:Actually it does happen. I've gotten 2 skills on my current PC 1 point below beginner on one teach. I know this because as soon as I was taught I had the crafts available and as soon as I used one I was at beginner.


Can confirm this. Got all the metalcraft crafts on one lesson, and gave all the woodworking crafts to another PC on one of my orcs teaching him once. We thought it was just teach being bugged at the time. /shrug

Backing up ThinkTwice here..I've had a crazy hard time with teach. Teaching other players and being taught. Something like, 80% failure rates across everything. After several attempts of this kind of stuff, it just devolves into 5 or 10 minutes of back and forth emoting then a teach attempt. That seems more than reasonable seeing as its very likely a skill will in fact not be learned.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:11 am

Bri wrote:My thing is, what if that first teach you miraculously give them the whole armor crafting set after only showing them how to stitch up a hole in a pair of gloves? How are they supposed to know how to cut out the fabric and piece together the fittings for an entire hauberk from that one lesson?

People have to RP responsibly. Becoming a professional armorcrafter off of one lesson is ridiculous, absolutely. But then again, three lessons aren't all that much better from a realism point of view. Neither is 'learning by doing', for a lot of the skills that allow it!

In all cases, one hopes there are virtual lessons, virtual study, and virtual practice to complement what we play out in game. One hopes that characters who are, ICly, still only beginning to learn their trade don't stop seeking out guidance just because the starter crafts have appeared on their lists.

If I'm teaching a complex crafting skill to a PC with zero experience and for whatever reason decide to roll on the first lesson (and get lucky), my student had better still show for the second session!
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Rivean » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:17 am

I've had a rethink about this since my initial post.

Bri wrote:
ThinkTwice wrote:3 lessons per teach command seems ... very lengthy, for the return I'm getting.


I think you might have misunderstood me. For teaching a skill set, I do not give the initial attempt to teach till the third lesson.


While this might have been perfectly reasonable in SOI2, things have changed. Depending on the stats for the PCs involved, the chances of a failure on the teach command is much higher, and the teach command confers a whole lot less than it used to in the old days as well. Couple this to the fact that most skills can be learned to a 'taught' level just by doing it yourself till you branch it, the teach command is simply no longer as powerful as it used to be.

Also, re: getting to beginner in a single teach, while it CAN happen, it usually doesn't. It is unwise to take outlying examples and use them as representative samples. On average, teach just isn't that powerful anymore - and therefore, in my opinion, can be handled with a lot less respect and caution than it was due in SOI2.

Now, whether skills should be so easily branchabl at all (via the 'do it till it shows up in your skill list method) is another debate entirely, but so long as skills are generally readily accessible and the teach command doesn't confer game breaking advantages, then I think we can all relax a great deal about how we use it.

That all having been said, there's simply no excuse NOT to have proper teaching RP whenever this command is used.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:07 am

Rivean wrote:
Bri wrote:For teaching a skill set, I do not give the initial attempt to teach till the third lesson.

While this might have been perfectly reasonable in SOI2, things have changed.

Just to clarify for myself, I think three lessons leading up to an initial teach can still be perfectly reasonable. I just also think that there are contexts in which fewer can be reasonable too.

Depending on the skill, on the depth and length of the lesson being RP'd, on how much IC time passes between lessons, on what related skills and experience the student already has, on whether there's an established IC master-apprentice or other relationship that should logically extend into virtual/offline time, etc., etc.
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Re: Policy: Teach Command Usage

Postby Bri » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:45 am

EltanimRas wrote:Just to clarify for myself, I think three lessons leading up to an initial teach can still be perfectly reasonable. I just also think that there are contexts in which fewer can be reasonable too.


This I absolutely agree with. As I said, crafts like fishing that have one sole purpose, one teach is certainly doable. Also, if you have a very long and in depth teaching session in which you cover as much as you would with the three separate sessions (ie go over 3 different crafts in depth with said pupil) would make it believable that the student was given enough to possibly attempt to do it on their own. IF you fail, well apparently they weren't paying attention.

And its from situations like Matt's that I draw my reluctance to teach just from one short lesson. Because most people who learn a craft from a teach never seek out the teacher again for another such lesson. They simply start using what they can do to get better till they learn what they want to from the skill set. I'm not saying Matt did this, but in general. So if someone in Matt's instance had been given those three lessons, they would have enough information to go off of to try to move forward in their new field.
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