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Hunger and Food

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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:38 am

But a low skill cooking craft is still a success, isn't it?


Yes. :D

The difficulty here is that one of main items that people cook sort of en-masse is both a low skilled butcher production (yon great hunks o' meat) and a low skilled cooking craft. So in the grand scheme, it wasn't the best raw material to start with, so burning it (AKA craft failure) is just making something bad turn worse.

My thought is that having the tragically burned skill failure items at that low level produce something useful is better than having it produce nothing (like in your example), but - yes, as is noted crafting failures in game are always a bit more dramatic than is perhaps exactly realistic.

I'll look into a "plate of roasted meat" perhaps or something along those lines that combines yon cooked meat chunks into a bigger portion (and perhaps uses a dash of salt) to produce a better item (IE - less spammy to ingest.)
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:24 am

Along these lines, something else that might be nifty would be a craft to dry fruit, retaining the calories of the raw material, but concentrating them into a smaller, lower weight portion -- OOCly less spammy and ICly better trail rations.

I think jerky exists or is planned already?
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:55 am

More good ideas. :D

For those who want to help with this effort in some way, here's a way you can help, our meat variables - $meat, $butchermeat, $beastmeat, and $gamebird need help with having their flavors added, so people don't get blank taste strings and as noted to help give a reward for using better and more desirable cuts of meat.

So, what I need are suggestions on what these various meats should taste like in a short line. The description needs to be vague enough that would apply to raw or cooked varieties of the meat on anything it might be used for.

Some items might migrate to different lists as domestic things are introduced later, but the need remains. Once this is done, we could indeed look at adjusting the relative cost of the variables based on their tastiness factor. :D

Meaning yes - we could financially reward (and thus conversely punish) good and bad choices based on tastiness.

Orc players, please feel free to contribute to the $beastmeat list this is your thing. ;)

So here's the lists (at present):

$butchermeat
ham
venison
boar
bear

$beastmeat

spider
cave-lizard
cave-rat
cave-bat
snake
dog
horse
warg
wolf

$meat

| 1 | organ
| 2 | lizard
| 3 | dog
| 4 | beef
| 5 | horse
| 6 | badger
| 7 | bat
| 8 | sheep
| 9 | veal
| 10 | goat
| 11 | pork
| 12 | gamebird
| 13 | weasel
| 14 | songbird
| 15 | hedgehog
| 16 | snake
| 17 | beaver
| 18 | rat
| 19 | bear
| 20 | fox
| 21 | venison
| 22 | squirrel
| 23 | rabbit
| 24 | boar

$gamebird

| 1 | heron
| 2 | pheasant
| 3 | woodcock
| 4 | swan
| 5 | partridge
| 6 | grouse
| 7 | duck
| 8 | goose

PM your suggestions (if you crave anonymity) or attach them here in some kind of .txt or Excel spreadsheet or as a single post. IE - let's not post things one thing at a time, that's going to get spammy. :lol:

Winning descriptions get added to the game.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby mongwen » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:04 am

Negativity alert, sorry, but I think staff could have found better things to mess around with than food. Granted it's alpha, but bothering with serving sizes and calories and whatever else is unnecessarily complicated and is causing a lot of equally unnecessary frustration IG when you have to eat half a dozen pieces of meat and drink 20/40 sips of water to be even close to sating even a mild hunger and thirst (my pc rarely goes past peckish and slightly thirsty), then the values promptly change again so that it seems like you're hungry and thirsty again half an hour later if that. I've even seen them go backward. Sated, you try to drink more to be completely sated, and you end up nicely quenched, which is a step back on the scale I think. It should have been left the way it was.
Something you'll find more useful, maybe, is the knowledge that you don't actually get echoes when your PC's full or sated when you're doing the feeding and watering thing, and I've noticed notifications of changing hunger/thirst are patchy. I most often pick them up in the score readout.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Sabrelon » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:01 am

mongwen wrote:Negativity alert, sorry, but I think staff could have found better things to mess around with than food. Granted it's alpha, but bothering with serving sizes and calories and whatever else is unnecessarily complicated and is causing a lot of equally unnecessary frustration IG when you have to eat half a dozen pieces of meat and drink 20/40 sips of water to be even close to sating even a mild hunger and thirst (my pc rarely goes past peckish and slightly thirsty), then the values promptly change again so that it seems like you're hungry and thirsty again half an hour later if that. I've even seen them go backward. Sated, you try to drink more to be completely sated, and you end up nicely quenched, which is a step back on the scale I think. It should have been left the way it was.
Something you'll find more useful, maybe, is the knowledge that you don't actually get echoes when your PC's full or sated when you're doing the feeding and watering thing, and I've noticed notifications of changing hunger/thirst are patchy. I most often pick them up in the score readout.


So, if I remember correctly, the changes to food happened on the Atonement iteration of the engine (in particular the changes to drinking water), so I'm going to put it forward and just guess that Staff are working with what was laid out for them, and are going to be tweaking it as it comes along.

The thirst thing, in particular, was changed to more accurately reflect that 1 drink is a *sip*, which is why it may take 20-30 sips to go from dying of thirst to not thirsty. I'm not saying whether or not this is a good thing, or realistic, necessary, but that's how it was intended to work. Beyond that, when you can just use something like 'drink sip 30' and be done with it, drinking is super simple.

As for hunger, it's going to get balanced soon. Balancing the lower-tier cooking crafts (as well as the general crafts) for how filling they are versus the higher ones is super complicated, because if the meat roast plain-meat yielded was as filling as, say, "prepare full-boar" (which isn't a thing but totally should be), then there's little incentive to get higher in cooking beyond roleplay.

So the options are either: Add extra bites to food, which, when you can use 'eat meat X' to eat multiple bites at once, would make it so that higher level cooking crafts were just generally better.

Or you can actually change the satiation values (I believe) to make you more full, faster, based on the type of food. For this one, I'd say just forget realism and make the higher-leveled foods more satiating, because as someone who works around with Nutrition a lot, that'd get very pointless, very quickly.

tl'dr: Food is complicated and isn't an easy fix to make it balanced, and I'm sure staff's working on it along with the billions of other things on their plate. It'll get figured out sooner rather than later, I'm thinking.


Edited to add: I don't know if it's common command knowledge, but people should probably be made aware that you can use 'eat [food] X' and 'drink [container] X' to finish food more quickly. If it isn't, that should probably be tossed in a helpfile somewhere.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:55 pm

Sabrelon wrote:As for hunger, it's going to get balanced soon. Balancing the lower-tier cooking crafts (as well as the general crafts) for how filling they are versus the higher ones is super complicated, because if the meat roast plain-meat yielded was as filling as, say, "prepare full-boar" (which isn't a thing but totally should be), then there's little incentive to get higher in cooking beyond roleplay.


I feel as if I'm going to grow really old having to say this over and over again:

It does not MATTER that you can find no coded advantage to higher tier cooking crafts. You simply cannot make lower tier cooking crafts less filling because cooking as a skill is about taste and not about how effectively it reduces hunger. The alternative is both absurd and game breakingly impossible to deal with from an economy sense.

Most recent example:

Cooked it myself instead of buying it from the bar. Bought a four copper component from Arni. Ate the finished product. It was done in two bites and it did not even move me up ONE hunger level.

This is so extremely frustrating. I sort of feel that if you're not the sort to go out and kill things and feed yourself, you're really kind of screwed in the game right now.

ETA: I know that staff are working on this, but I don't think anybody has an ETA on when food items will be done being rebalanced. Is it possible that we can just turn hunger off till this DOES get fixed? That would be infinitely preferable to the starvation that seems presently unavoidable.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:30 am

Negativity alert, sorry, but I think staff could have found better things to mess around with than food. Granted it's alpha, but bothering with serving sizes and calories


I'll put it out there and take full responsibility that this was my idea, and I likely remain it's biggest champion. One of the biggest reason thinking of food in terms of calories was done was for ease of building. A "food value" index is relative, as you are attempting to determine how much something is "worth" compared to every other food in the game. With calories you can indeed see what items you are putting into a dish, and determine accordingly.

Seeing the Food Value system utilized in yon SOI2, I can say that works far better as an ideal than really works properly.

It does not MATTER that you can find no coded advantage to higher tier cooking crafts. You simply cannot make lower tier cooking crafts less filling because cooking as a skill is about taste and not about how effectively it reduces hunger. The alternative is both absurd and game breakingly impossible to deal with from an economy sense.


This has always been the case, just perhaps less obviously. Your piece of three-tiered-wedding cake is more filling than the cracker because it has more ingredients. More complicated crafts will produce a more satiating portion because there are more ingredients. Requiring more ingredients produces a more expensive but higher quality product.

I think calling that absurd and breakingly impossible to conceive of is a bit of a hyperbole. As it's the same concept as in other crafts - more "ingredients" more "input" = a more helpful, more beautiful, longer-lasting, more satisfying product.

And you have to remember, we are also trying to balance the value of food for Orc players whose PCs might have an entirely different emphasis or caring on taste than a human PC. Or people who simply don't care. Taste while an amazing thing (which I've tried hard to create some good taste strings using the new code :D ) is not the be and end all of balancing for food. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point based on my observations as a staffer when you "level the playing field" too much, so to say.

Food is the item-type that moves in and out of the economy with the most frequency - it is the most produced and the most consumed. It therefore needs to have more consideration beyond a coded "treat" in taste strings people may or may not pay attention to.

Most recent example:

Cooked it myself instead of buying it from the bar. Bought a four copper component from Arni. Ate the finished product. It was done in two bites and it did not even move me up ONE hunger level.


Naming the item in question here would be more helpful as I can only begin to guess what item this might have been.

This is so extremely frustrating. I sort of feel that if you're not the sort to go out and kill things and feed yourself, you're really kind of screwed in the game right now.


The Lodge at this point has 84 line items of food available for free in their kitchen. The Guard has food around too (they don't seem to using the system properly, so it's harder to count :lol: ) If you are an independent and don't hunt/forage/fish and aren't in with a "crew" who is selling things to other PCs or the clans for more, I'll agree yes ... things might be a bit bleak for you.

Perhaps I'll look into some general work crafts for indies to earn some coin to counter this issue.

ETA: I know that staff are working on this, but I don't think anybody has an ETA on when food items will be done being rebalanced. Is it possible that we can just turn hunger off till this DOES get fixed? That would be infinitely preferable to the starvation that seems presently unavoidable.


Again, unavoidable starvation seems a bit of a hyperbole. If your PC is about to starve you might need to do something about them not having either food or money to buy food. But at a certain point, there's a difference between a code issue (items don't seem properly balanced) and an IC problem (my PC has an issue with access to food.)

Fixing problem one won't neccessarily fix problem two for people.

Also, my definition of balanced (making sure the amounts are realistic and properly accounting for all ingredients used) and others (IE - you disagreeing that a plain fish fillet and a breaded, fried fish fillet should have different values ;)) might be different.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:43 am

Frigga wrote:Perhaps I'll look into some general work crafts for indies to earn some coin to counter this issue.

This sounds like something that'd really help give Utterby a bit more of the boomtown feel it's supposed to have. If you play casually and/or off-peak, it can be surprisingly hard to find a job for a pc with few, low-level, or less-than-codedly-useful skill picks.

Day labor at the docks? Loading, unloading, stacking crates? (Arguably, there might be a roll vs. strength involved in that somewhere, but oh well.)
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:43 am

Okay, I think we seem to be talking past each other a little bit, and there seems to be a misunderstanding about our respective positions on this, as well as some genuine disagreements. Let me clarify:

a) It is not my position that a cracker should be as filling as a three tiered wedding cake.

However, it IS my position that a pound of meat that is expertly cooked (high skill) should be more or less as filling as a pound of meat that has been tossed onto a grill with a bit of salt. To be absolutely clear, I am not referring to craft failure here. I am talking about low grade cooking skills that produce perfectly edible meat. If the higher tier cooking crafts add more ingredients and are therefore more filling, then great - this does not mean that the pound of simply cooked meat should not be filling. It is a pound of cooked meat.

Please clarify your position on this because the disagreement over this is causing me no small amount of frustration.

b) It is not my position that a plain fish fillet should be as filling as a breaded fish fillet.

However, it IS my position that unless we're making fillet out of sardines now, a plain fish fillet should be pretty damn filling.

c) I agree that food is the most produced and consumed item in the game. This is precisely why it needs to be balanced and not broken - which it presently is, and I will go on to demonstrate why.

d) Brokenness of food:

Let's work through the example I went into shall we? My PC recently bought some fish from Arni, which cost 4 bits and weighed 3 pounds. I used the plain-fish-fillet craft on it, and successfully cooked some fish fillet.

As mentioned previously, it was gone in two bites and did not elevate my PC's hunger level by a single tier.

But even if we assume that this meal eliminates one level of hunger (it does not) you're looking at a 4 cp cost per hunger level. In addition 20 cp for a token that's good for 25 uses comes around to 0.8 cp per use, leaving us with a grand total of 4.8 cp per hunger level at the cheapest end of the spectrum.

If you eliminate 3 - 4 hunger levels per day that's 14 - 19 cp per day. And this is supposed to be the low cost, do-it-yourself solution, not simply buying it from the bar and eating it yourself.

Somebody needs to tell me about all these IC jobs that pay 20 cp per day. There aren't any. This is not an income issue (that issue is a whole 'nother kettle of fish) this is an expenditure issue. Therefore:

e) It is not hyperbole when I say that the present system means inevitable starvation.

f)
Frigga wrote:The Lodge at this point has 84 line items of food available for free in their kitchen. The Guard has food around too (they don't seem to using the system properly, so it's harder to count :lol: ) If you are an independent and don't hunt/forage/fish and aren't in with a "crew" who is selling things to other PCs or the clans for more, I'll agree yes ... things might be a bit bleak for you.


In other words, if you are actually interacting with the economy to buy the raw materials (from Arni) instead of actually producing them for yourself (killing things) or having others (clan mates who kill things) produce them for you for free, you're screwed. The clans you're talking about will never run out of food, no matter how poorly balanced the satiation/cost of food is. The fact that they have piles of food in their clan halls doesn't mean that food is balanced or priced adequately. It simply is a reflection of the fact that hunted meat is a free, inexhaustible resource, and players like to kill things for fun, food, and skill gain. The nearly infinitely nature of the food stockpiles in the clanhalls in the game just makes it more absurd that the price of raw food outside those clanhalls is so high.

g)
Frigga wrote:Perhaps I'll look into some general work crafts for indies to earn some coin to counter this issue.


My PC still has more money than most salaried PCs make in months. While general work crafts and scope for independent PCs would be much appreciated in general (and I strongly encourage you to pursue this avenue), but it will not address the problem, which is firstly, as demonstrated above, the cost of food is too high, and secondly, that food is not filling enough.

(Seriously, somebody needs to explain to me how an entire fish fillet can leave someone's hunger levels unaffected.)

h)
Frigga wrote:But at a certain point, there's a difference between a code issue (items don't seem properly balanced) and an IC problem (my PC has an issue with access to food.)


Frankly, this is frustrating and a bit insulting. I'm not complaining because my PC is starving. I'm complaining because my PC will eventually starve in a way that doesn't make IC sense, because the game is not properly balanced. This is not about my PC, this is about hunger levels, satiation, and the cost of cooked and uncooked food. I think I have gone on at extreme length to illustrate and clarify why I feel these issues are out of balance. If you still feel that this is simply a player complaining because things are not going their way, please let me know, and this will be the last you hear from me on this issue.

i)
Frigga wrote:Fixing problem one won't necessarily fix problem two for people.


I'm not asking you to finance my PC's food expenditure. I'm asking you to bring the food economy into balance. I'm asking you to fix problem 1, and once you do, problem 2 is my problem.

In closing, let me say plainly that I am extremely frustrated with this entire issue and this entire conversation so forgive me if I sound abrupt or annoyed - because I feel very much as if what I'm saying is not getting through here, and I don't understand why.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Emilio » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:36 am

So, trying to fix the problem of overstacked food in the clanhalls creates hunger and economic problems with those not belonging to a clan. Frankly, I don't want to sound sarcastic, but, this makes me think twice about playing the game. There has to be a better solution. Couldn't the clans sell the extra food to the market and make it disappear or something else?
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:43 am

Emilio wrote:So, trying to fix the problem of overstacked food in the clanhalls creates hunger and economic problems with those not belonging to a clan. Frankly, I don't want to sound sarcastic, but, this makes me think twice about playing the game. There has to be a better solution. Couldn't the clans sell the extra food to the market and make it disappear or something else?


There's plenty of food avilable, Emilio. Tons of it. It's readily sold to the NPC that's accessible to more or less everyone, and you can buy from him. The problem is that you have to eat metric tons of food to get filled, and said food costs more than you're likely to get paid IC.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Emilio » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:17 pm

Rivean wrote:There's plenty of food avilable, Emilio. Tons of it. It's readily sold to the NPC that's accessible to more or less everyone, and you can buy from him. The problem is that you have to eat metric tons of food to get filled, and said food costs more than you're likely to get paid IC.


And the admins don't see this as a problem???

Thank you, Rivean. I'll come back in a few months.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Real » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:28 pm

...Just hunt one of the many mobs running around outside town. Or consult with one of Utterby's near-endless supply of hunters to share what they have with you -- They'll probably do it without charge, seeing as there are few means of getting money for hunting right around now.

So all you have to do is find one of the myriad PCs who hunts and interact with them. Or RP being an individual of little means for a while and learn to forage/trade. Learn the skills to be self-supporting and supplement your diet with the occasional hunt of your own. People did it back in real-life medieval society, it's not unreasonable to do so now.

I don't find that stomping your foot and leaving with a gruff forum post is ever a particularly constructive approach.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:59 pm

Real wrote:Go kill/forage something, or trade with someone who does


It's more the idea that you 'shouldn't' have to spend that much of your time based around acquiring a basic good, nor that much of your money. Gamist-wise, your advice makes some sense, except...requiring everyone to play into the murderkill everything that moves game doesn't. It's not really something everybody views as worth-while, long-term. From a design perspective, people should be able to play PCs that are getting themselves sweaty and filthy ripping into wildlife with a deadly weapon. Most of an RPI's "fun" coded features should be opt-in, rather than required.

Expecting everyone to play the same way's not terribly helpful, either. The 'trade with someone' mentality might work, but I've never found that expecting people to regularly spend a significant chunk of their time acquiring the means to feed themselves did the game any good, long-term. It's a -chore-. Parallel's system was probably best, with anybody able to acquire food to feed themselves, but the means to eat well-produced, high-class goods left to cooking crafters.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Real » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:02 pm

Seriously, if you ask some of the hunters, I can think of one or two in particular, they will just hand you enough hunks to feed yourself for an RL week and you can forget about it. There's no incredible time investment involved, just a different approach.

And trading with hunters is not opting into the murderkill lifestyle, it can be a hook for more RP if you want it to be.

Remind me quickly where I said that everyone had to subscribe to murderkill.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:50 pm

Real wrote:Seriously, if you ask some of the hunters, I can think of one or two in particular, they will just hand you enough hunks to feed yourself for an RL week...


I'm saying X is a problem. You're saying Y is a work around. This does not mean that X is not a problem that needs to be addressed - which seems to be the current official position on this.

Besides which, anyone should be able to BUY basic supplies at realistic rates and those supplies should have realistic uses. That's not really asking for a mile in the sky and a palace on the clouds. That's asking for basic playability.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Real » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:53 pm

I'm trying to say that quitting the game over it is unnecessary.
Only in my opinion, what Emilio feels is a good investment of his time is his own volition.

Everything in its time, there was a whole butchering wave and I'm sure that the people working on crafts/objects like to switch it up a bit here and there.

I didn't chime in until I saw someone quitting over the Hunger & Food topic.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:01 pm

Real wrote:Seriously, if you ask some of the hunters, I can think of one or two in particular, they will just hand you enough hunks to feed yourself for an RL week and you can forget about it.

Given that this is the case (and given how much food a single PC can eat at once), how can we possibly explain Arni's prices?
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Real » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:12 pm

Realism goes out the window when you go for a working game economy in something where there's a large discrepancy between the amount of time that individuals put in.

If I kill a buck and piece it I can sell those for somewhere in the realm of two silver. That's a whoa amount for the amount of effort it takes me to get one of those, which is to say, 10-15 minutes, and then on to the next. It's because once you do the piecing each one goes for 1-3 cp and this adds up, but there's not an easy way to make it work unless there's a smaller denomination than a copper.

The inn ends up with a lot of 1 and 2 cp roasts and hams and so on, and they go through the crafting to make the nice roasts and glazed hams of +4 strength and then they want to make a profit, since it's a profitable business. Prepared food inflates to an unplayable level for just about anyone who wants to eat at the inn regularly.

I would suggest reducing the money from hunting at the inn to a more reasonable degree and reducing the market price of steaks and so on to fractions of a copper, so that a PC could spend 4 cop and get 16 steaks or something if he needed to, and hunters would have to build up a fair supply and sell them all at once to get paid properly. This also means that everyone can get paid because Arni's coffers won't get burned through by those who spend a lot of their time online perusing their craft.

Don't even get me started on the costs involved in going after rabbits as opposed to the rest. I think twine needs to cost about 1/5th as much to be newbie-friendly.
Last edited by Real on Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby krelm » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:18 pm

Couldn't you just pay people more?

(I know nothing about economics.)
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:19 pm

Real's post is one of many possible solutions to this problem. You can lower the price levels, and if the one copper denomination is too great to break up, you can increase the income levels and reduce the value of the copper.

The only thing to keep in mind is that this is a tangled mess and you have to be careful and mindful that if you're pulling at one thread, it might unravel from the other end.

And yes, you could just pay people more, but you have to raise the prices of other items to keep them in balance. Because otherwise you have one steak = one sword, and that's nuts in a whole different way.

ETA: I have taught A level Economics for several years.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Emilio » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:36 pm

Well, I didn't say that I have the intention of leaving the game for good. I just figured that if I play it the way it is, I'll be spending my whole playing time trying to fill my belly and that would be boring.

In my opinion, we should have a realistic balance between food and hunger divided by four since 1 RL hour equals 4 in the game. So a player character have to eat every 2 IG hours about the same amount of food IRL. Let's say, steak and fries, salad and one to two pieces of fruit. And, that's reasonable.

To fix the problem of food overstacking, make it perishable.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:27 pm

Please clarify your position on this because the disagreement over this is causing me no small amount of frustration.


Low grade cooking crafts (IE those with low rolls) are designed to produce items with basic flavor and the "food value" of the item as it is with no further enhancement.

However, it IS my position that unless we're making fillet out of sardines now, a plain fish fillet should be pretty damn filling.


(Seriously, somebody needs to explain to me how an entire fish fillet can leave someone's hunger levels unaffected.)


A 4 oz fillet of cod isn't as filling as you might imagine. If we want to make the fillet bigger (and thus more filling) we can simply have less fillets per fish.

My PC recently bought some fish from Arni, which cost 4 bits and weighed 3 pounds. I used the plain-fish-fillet craft on it, and successfully cooked some fish fillet.


Part of that is a building error, the grilled fish fillet is somehow set to weight 6 times as much as the raw fillet that went into it. :oops:

Also, Arni's not the best way to consider coded price, he charges jacked up prices to people buying back from him to counter the glut people sell to him.

Soon, however, there will be another shop for raw food goods that won't have an associated "membership fee" so to speak - so be on the look out for that soon.

Also, perhaps we should look into some ability to examine an item and get a vague inkling of how filling it would be. Which would then leave people the choice of buying something for price, taste, or food stuffing properties.

And the admins don't see this as a problem???

Thank you, Rivean. I'll come back in a few months.


The admins in this case is me, as noted, so - I'm not going to let the staff as a collective take my heat. And I never said I didn't see it as a problem, I've already begun work on standardizing and adjusting bites and "value" for food.

This does not mean that X is not a problem that needs to be addressed - which seems to be the current official position on this.


Again, I never said I didn't think some things here need to be tweaked, we just disagree about some of the particulars, I think.

I'm looking into bumping up values and looking at prices.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Emilio » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:34 am

*bites his own lips*,

Sorry for that, Frigga. I didn't mean to sound so rude.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:19 am

krelm wrote:Couldn't you just pay people more?

(I know nothing about economics.)


It shows. ;)

More seriously, raising the amount of liquid cash flowing through the game-world wouldn't be a necessarily bad idea, but not through things that are almost completely arbitrary (albeit necessary) like timed paydays. No "actual" work is performed to earn this salary, or rather, the work isn't codedly tied to the amount you get paid on a regular basis.

The commission system and hopefully an expanded trading system will fill the gap that a salary is lacking in, while taking objects out of the game-world to some degree, with a moving, material absorbing economic effort involved, in exchange for more capital to buy things with.

Increasing the amount of coin flowing onto the grid without having a cause-and-effect attached to it will ultimately become detrimental to the economy's health. Other methods to stimulate the economy and put cash into player pockets are being devised/implemented.
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Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
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