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Gear Creep and Perception

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Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:36 pm

Problems.

1) Some clans getting excessive amounts of "free money" that they can in turn spend to outfit themselves with the best gear that PCs are capable of wielding/wearing.

2) Some clans being able to vNPCly order the best weapons craftable in-game with said free money, weapons that are beyond the skill levels of any PC weaponsmith to make with literally no personal cost to the PCs involved.

3) Un-forageable ingots being given out for free to PCs who are lucky enough to partake in RPTs. I'm not against an occasional weapon or unique object being found through plot, but my understanding is that both recent orc and human RPTs have flooded the in-game economy with unique ingots when the PCs in the game have a difficult time even getting enough iron to make refined iron.

4) RPT armor rewards of armor that is a quality higher than anything that is craftable IG, or plot-related stat/skill boosts. I've heard of this happening multiple times now.


I don't suspect that this staff is as liable to pull some of the crazy stunts that previous SOI staff did, such as load better-than-mithril quality Haradrim armor to entice PCs to retire from one sphere and join another. However, enough of these sorts of things are happening, that it's a grave concern to me. If this sort of careless stuff continues to happen, it's going to become more and more of a problem and look more and more like favoritism.

The perception of what is happening is equally important to the actuality of what is happening.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Hawkwind » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:53 pm

Can we be told what exactly has been discovered in each sphere? You make it sound horribly game-crippling. As far as I was aware there are two swords and a handful of ingots.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:58 pm

Numerous ingots of steel, refined iron, bronze, gold, in addition to unique stuff -- and in each sphere, given out as rewards for two specific RPTs (one for each sphere).

High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.

Extreme Stat/skill-boosts to PCs for "plot reasons" in the orc sphere, that may or may not be resolved now.

Other stuff that would be more plot sensitive to talk about.

I'm sure I don't have all of the information that's out there, as I actually don't have much of an OOC network. Regardless, it's enough that it's extremely troubling in an "alpha" phase of a game that's barely been open for three months.

Like I said, I'm certain that it's more-than-likely carelessness and not intentional breakery on the part of staff. But it's still just as harmful in the long-term, if adjustments aren't made.

I'm not against unique stuff popping up here and there. I'm not against rewards for RPTs. But free top-notch gear being given away in large numbers, free coin being given away in large amounts to clans, these things are setting a precedence that is not good for the game.

We've seen where this leads before, SOI.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:07 pm

High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.

Extreme Stat/skill-boosts to PCs for "plot reasons" in the orc sphere, that may or may not be resolved now.


Just for the record, this is old news that was resolved ages ago, both perpetrated by now-resigned staffers who probably didn't realize what they were doing at the time.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:07 pm

High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.


Fictitious.

As are other things. Come on people. Some of it happened, and was resolved, sure, but that's not representative on what we "allow" and what is "okay".

Gear creep also isn't as bad as it's being made out to be given nothing is handed out that isn't craftable, and the scarcity issues are being discussed and are going to be approached/resolved soon, alongside that.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:11 pm

krelm wrote:
High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.

Extreme Stat/skill-boosts to PCs for "plot reasons" in the orc sphere, that may or may not be resolved now.


Just for the record, this is old news that was resolved ages ago, both perpetrated by now-resigned staffers who probably didn't realize what they were doing at the time.


Even if some of these issues have been resolved, like I believe you in saying that they have been, they still go to set a precedence when coupled with more recent things.

This is something that RPIs need to be really, really careful with. And it's so easy to slip up here, because even one really ill-considered object load can create a ripple of effects through the game.

I've both seen this happen numerous times, and been the guilty party of unknowingly causing this before as an RPA. I understand it from all sides. I'm just gently suggesting that it's starting to become a real issue, particularly in Utterby (so far as I know).

Fulgrim wrote:Fictitious.


Not fictitious. Resolved now, perhaps, but not fictitious.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Hawkwind » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Songweaver wrote:
Fulgrim wrote:Fictitious.


Not fictitious. Resolved now, perhaps, but not fictitious.


Dude, your attitude is what kills staff. >edited< It needs to be said, and I know it appears to be an unpopular reason, but it's Alpha/Beta, >unproductive inference about Open. Edited<
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Fulgrim » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:34 pm

I talk to Songweaver on a semi-regular basis. I think he knows he's not killing my resolve to do anything, but he has to realize by now everytime he posts something, I feel obligated to be contrary to inaccuracies present lest people get the impression it's 100% truthiness.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Tiamat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:35 pm

Hawkwind wrote:
Songweaver wrote:
Fulgrim wrote:Fictitious.


Not fictitious. Resolved now, perhaps, but not fictitious.


Dude, your attitude is what kills staff. Grow up will you? It needs to be said, and I know it appears to be an unpopular reason, but it's Alpha/Beta, when we get to Laketown then we can cry, whine and moan.


Actually, I'd say that giving feedback is really helpful in an ALPHA/BETA stage. Complaining and giving criticism when the real game is released is far too late. Also, opinions are opinions, so keep it civil. Feedback never killed anyone.

I won't comment on the content of the thread itself.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:38 pm

Hawkwind wrote:
Songweaver wrote:
Fulgrim wrote:Fictitious.


Not fictitious. Resolved now, perhaps, but not fictitious.


Dude, your attitude is what kills staff. Grow up will you? It needs to be said, and I know it appears to be an unpopular reason, but it's Alpha/Beta, when we get to Laketown then we can cry, whine and moan.


I ... really try to be supportive of staff and positive about the game. I like them. I like what they're trying to do. I very, very rarely complain about things on the forum. What are you talking about?

I wouldn't have created this thread if I weren't certain that it's becoming an issue worth the extra attention of everyone involved, and that my private attempts to bring up the issue to certain staff had been unsuccessful at positively effecting the situation.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:48 pm

On the bright side, at least I haven't seen any steel weapons/armor IG yet.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:26 pm

Songweaver wrote:2) Some clans being able to vNPCly order the best weapons craftable in-game with said free money, weapons that are beyond the skill levels of any PC weaponsmith to make with literally no personal cost to the PCs involved.

you're kidding me, right? The idea of one sphere being able to get top quality gear without risk while the other sphere is stuck having to put in work, organize and risk their characters dying in order to get the same stuff is pretty annoying
Last edited by radioactivejesus on Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:33 pm

Songweaver wrote:High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.

True, the sphere acquired a suit of uncraftable armour. Better than standard leather, inferior to the chainmail that is now ingame. It definitely wasn't obtained freely or without risk

Songweaver wrote:Extreme Stat/skill-boosts to PCs for "plot reasons" in the orc sphere, that may or may not be resolved now.

first I've ever heard of that.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Matt » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:49 pm

krelm wrote:On the bright side, at least I haven't seen any steel weapons/armor IG yet.


Correct, you haven't seen any yet. There are a surprising amount of refined iron items orc side I'll say. Anything really game breaking? No, not really. But honed refined iron is some pretty impressive stuff for some lower dwelling orcs to have.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Holmes » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:50 pm

Kind of ironic considering you gave people literal plasma cannons on your own MUD. :)
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Tiamat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:59 pm

Holmes wrote:Kind of ironic considering you gave people literal plasma cannons on your own MUD. :)


I was there for that, and helped prog those, being the head admin of Atonement. This seems like nothing more than flamebait. Trolls be trollin'. That was for an end-game event for literally two RL days, and it was used more for PvE purposes than it ever was for PvP. The players were up against insurmountable odds, purposefully, and plasma cannons seemed like a pretty cool idea for players to play around with for the last two days of the game. They were up against unending alien waves, with powerful alien wizards that could sizzle you with lightning and a host of other OP abilities. It also had a very high recharge timer that took 2 RL hours in the sun, and had two plasma blasts in total. The context is completely different, and was never meant to last past end-game, because, y'know, nothing lasts past the end of the story.

Ad hominem, Holmes. Keep your personal vendettas off the public forums.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Gobbo » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:01 pm

If I recall Atonement had its fair share of g-quality gear dolled out to players from rpts. More so than we've probably had here. As someone said the armor given out is better than leathers but worse than chainmail which will eventually make it not that special.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Tiamat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:03 pm

Gobbo wrote:If I recall Atonement had its fair share of g-quality gear dolled out to players from rpts. More so than we've probably had here. As someone said the armor given out is better than leathers but worse than chainmail which will eventually make it not that special.


Comparing Atonement to SOI is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think it's particularly helpful or productive to the discussion. There were several phases of Atonement, so you'd have to be specific about which era, and how it relates to SOI's problem of gear creep (if any). When I ran Atonement, Atonement's economy was pretty communal, given that everyone was a survivor onboard a spaceship to hell knows where, so gear hand-outs didn't exactly upset anything when most of the action was PvE, as opposed to the premise here, which is Orcs vs. Humans + other Stuff. There's a host of issues you need to address, when you throw in purposeful PvP into the action. And I mean purposeful as in, it's somewhat encouraged by game design, because evil orcs and humans don't get along.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:11 pm

In Atonement's ALPHA, pot-helms never went out of style, and people swung fire-axes and knives taped to broom-handles until the day they died.

I did introduce broken flame-torches in ALPHA, though, which I've always admitted was a mistake; I got better at scripting these sorts of things in more balanced ways later on. In the final two phases of Atonement that I ran (second half of GAMMA with Tiamat, and OMEGA), the only real nasty that we introduced was the plasma canon, which was severely limited and -- well, everything that Tiamat said. A fun toy to fight never-ending waves of enemies with until everyone was dead.

That said, I've made mistakes with gear before, mostly when I ran Northlands in old SOI. It was never purposeful, but it's incredibly easy to break the balance of the game. And I'm concerned that things are moving in that direction, and simply encouraging staff to learn from past mistakes (some mine own) to avoid it.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Raukran » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Songweaver wrote:...
I did introduce broken flame-torches in ALPHA, though, which I've always admitted was a mistake; I got better at scripting these sorts of things in more balanced ways later on. In the final two phases of Atonement that I ran (second half of GAMMA with Tiamat, and OMEGA), the only real nasty that we introduced was the plasma canon, which was severely limited and -- well, everything that Tiamat said. A fun toy to fight never-ending waves of enemies with until everyone was dead.
...


In my defense, Krelm told me to spam the flamethrower, and I doubt if we would have survived a few of those upper deck breaches otherwise.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:19 pm

Raukran wrote:
Songweaver wrote:...
I did introduce broken flame-torches in ALPHA, though, which I've always admitted was a mistake; I got better at scripting these sorts of things in more balanced ways later on. In the final two phases of Atonement that I ran (second half of GAMMA with Tiamat, and OMEGA), the only real nasty that we introduced was the plasma canon, which was severely limited and -- well, everything that Tiamat said. A fun toy to fight never-ending waves of enemies with until everyone was dead.
...


In my defense, Krelm told me to spam the flamethrower, and I doubt if we would have survived a few of those upper deck breaches otherwise.


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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Alcarin » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:03 am

We have been discussing this stuff, staff-side. Especially what is and is not acceptable 'loot' for future plots.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Songweaver » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:07 am

Alcarin wrote:We have been discussing this stuff, staff-side. Especially what is and is not acceptable 'loot' for future plots.


That's excellent to hear.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby MrDvAnt » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Songweaver wrote:
Alcarin wrote:We have been discussing this stuff, staff-side. Especially what is and is not acceptable 'loot' for future plots.


That's excellent to hear.



Does this mean I'll have to give my mithril plate cuirass back? :(
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Taurgalas » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:09 pm

Yup. And your mithril double-edged broadsword, too. :twisted:
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