It is currently Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:58 am
Change font size

General Discussion

Farewell For Now

Discuss game issues here.

Moderator: Elder Staff

Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:08 am

I'd like to take a moment to thank all of you that have made my experience on SOI a memorable one, and staff in particular for the time and effort they've put into this game.

This decision has been a while in coming now. I have been experiencing for quite some time a growing dissatisfaction with the game - for various reasons, some of which I'll go into below, in the hopes that it might be helpful or relevant to anybody upstairs:

a) The increasingly, persistently, high-magic nature of the IG world is something that I have a hard time appreciating because my PCs are not from that world. The northern middle-earth I'd envisioned (with the help of what documentation staff put up), the background world in which my PCs were gestating before I got to actively play them, was vastly different from the IG reality we have now. The primary conflicts and plotlines are not political, are not economic, are not social - they are instead supernatural, and that just makes the world seem crazy to my PCs.

b) I find that the PCs that used to inspire me and provoke me, as in the old days of SOI, are very hard to come by now. Possibly this is because I'm more cynical and jaded than I used to be, possibly this is because the Kestrels and the Pslims have moved on.

c) I have been persistently disappointed by staff decision making since the inception of this project, as I'm sure most of you are aware from my ceaseless grumbling about this or that. I do appreciate your time and your effort, but I very often disagree with what is actually decided upon, and I've come to the point where I feel that my presence here is no longer beneficial to anyone as my criticisms can serve little purpose other than to make me unhappy and to demotivate the volunteers running this game.

d) The final nail in the coffin was today's moderation policy, and the first instance of its application. I read Eltanimras' recent post before leaving the house today, and when I got back I found it locked. This left me incredulous, and somewhat less than happy - a thread that was ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION on a recent staff policy was locked. The reason, as I later went on to discover, was that the staff 'have decided not to open discussion or "take suggestions" on how we moderate and guide the boards and their daily discourse'.

I found this absurd and more than a little irritating, firstly, because any survey of the last two months will show that staff have been less than flawless in their decisionmaking and have (quite laudably) taken feedback and gone back on many decisions, policies, and otherwise admitted many mistakes that they have decided to correct. For staff to declare, essentially, that they do not require feedback is, frankly, an arrogance that is far from merited here.

Secondly, if your very first instance of moderation after the new policy is issued is to take a request for clarification and more information and treat it as if it were some sort of indictment, criticism, or even, as was listed, a 'suggestion' is... well, I don't even know what that is, save that it was the last straw and the camel's back, and at this point, I'm more or less done.

I hope that when the game is fully fleshed out and when it has gone through its teething pains and its vision and policy is ironed out into something more in accordance with what the administrators want - when, essentially, we have a stable, final game that isn't being tweaked and worked over and changed, in either mechanics or policy - I hope that then I can come back and enjoy SOI as I once used to.

In the meantime, for reasons mentioned above, I think it's well past time I stepped away. As Krelm recently said, perhaps the best solution to unhappy players is for said players to simply leave.

Since EltanimRas is still playing, I may from time to time log in to see how things are going and see if things work for my PC enough to draw me back in. I also wish all of you working on this project every success, in particular to the admins of whom I have been at times harshly critical. Keep at it, you'll get there.

If I do finally end up retiring my PC (and/or rolling the one I've had stabled for a while), I'll wait the requisite period of time and (assuming it's still permitted by policy) post up some log snippets that I suspect might amuse more than a couple of players. Till then, my friends, enjoy yourselves and please wind up making a great game.

*waves*
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Alcarin » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:55 am

Sorry to hear you feel that way, but best of luck to you.

At what feels like extreme risk of turning this thread into a nightmare, I will offer the following comment re, your final straw, as I feel it needs to be said.
We are going to be enforcing forum policies because we feel that leaving the forums un-policed has left us with an overwhelmingly harmful, negative environment which many players and staff members alike have taken to avoiding entirely, or in some cases, have even left the game to get away from.

If you have genuine concerns regarding the forum policies, we are absolutely open to answering questions and addressing those concerns to the best of our ability.

However, we feel that it is important to keep player discourse civil and constructive, rather than allowing personal attacks and completely non-constructive complaints to remain the norm.

For anyone that is able to voice their concerns, criticisms and complaints in a manner that does not involve personal attacks, inappropriate language, or a predominance of inflammatory language intended to provoke a negative emotional reaction, the forum policies should have minimal impact upon you.
Alcarin
 

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Hawkwind » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:18 am

Very sorry to see you go Riv, but these >edited< threads have got to stop. >edited, unrelated to the subject at hand, construed as name-calling< Why are we all so desperate to protest and take up any random cause that is voiced?

Again, hope to see you return.
JESUS CHRIST, THE HELIUM!
PS4 Handle - Roadhawkes
Tags Taken: Eru I, Mavinero I.
User avatar
Hawkwind
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:46 am
Location: Volga Matushka

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby jdidds » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:20 am

:( Roll a new PC and come and play with meeeeeeeee!!!! I'm sure I'll be able to piss you off or inspire you in some form or another.
Code: Select all
There is currently 1 soul braving the world all alone.
User avatar
jdidds
Elf Recruit
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:29 am
Location: Somewhere over there

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Raukran » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:25 am

Frankly, up until a day ago, I was going stop frequenting the forums. I used to be a member of RPI communities in the past, but this negativity really is cancerous. Staff are not omnipotent beings who can pull quick fixes out of their ass. They're players like us with added permissions. This is a new game. The only thing that it has in common with the SOI of olde is using the same codebase, and carrying on the namesake. There's a lot of entitlement and expectation on the part of the players. I come from a MUD background with very little staff involvement, so I'm used to having the sandbox built, and players being left to their own devices. You guys have it good compared to some of the MUD train wrecks I've played in the past.
I am not responsible for the actions of my characters.
Raukran
Unverified User
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:44 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:26 am

This is precisely the reason why I shouldn't be on this forum, because invariably this sort of thing becomes another tedious argument that nobody wants and nothing ever comes out of. Somehow or the other though, we can't seem to help ourselves, myself included.

Here's the thread I was referring to.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1714

I have no idea what Alcarin means to imply when he highlights that section of the policy, but the policy has already been used - if the thread linked is an example of 'personal attacks, inappropriate language, or a predominance of inflammatory language intended to provoke a negative emotional reaction' then I'm really just a little... flabbergasted.

Anyway, we're all a bit tired of this, as Hawkwind points out. This will be the last you hear from me on the subject, and in parting I hope that this aspect of policy or this instance of its application is not made out to be the reason for my departure - it just happens to be the most recent thing bothering me, and by itself is not really the end of the world. My complaints are cumulative, not singular.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby krelm » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:39 am

Rivean, here, on 08/05/14 wrote:So, I'm out.


He'll be back.
One among the fence.
User avatar
krelm
Calce Ferio asini Operarius
 
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:01 pm
Location: Brought to You Live, Via Sorcery

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:41 am

krelm wrote:
Rivean, here, on 08/05/14 wrote:So, I'm out.


He'll be back.


Rivean wrote: I may from time to time log in to see how things are going and see if things work for my PC enough to draw me back in.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Ava » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:14 pm

This makes my heart sad, but I understand and concur. :( I'm really surprised at the last twenty four hours of moderation, too.
Ava
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:33 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby fatpony » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:40 pm

I think staff is doing a great job and that player entitlement is too rife.
fatpony
Verified Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:51 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby tehkory » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:09 pm

Raukran: Pretend for a moment you are fresh from Midas's death, an altogether mistake affair. That sit sucked. For some players playing, that was Tuesday. Nothing unusual happened and the game was fine. They could have no idea you had legitimate complaints. Utterly lacking your perspective, the game seemed shiny. Their lack of context did not lessen your own legitimate issues.

Roadhawk/Hawkwind/Renal: Pretend Mad Jackie just got his head splattered like a melon. It sucked.* Some might be mad Staff gave free enforcement and right-to-kill to one clan. Some might be upset. Nobody has your perspective on that event, except you. Calling someone thin-skinned is unproductive. It's not useful to a conversation. It's downright mean-spirited. And if you're wondering again and again where they good players went...you just found an answer.

Admins are players too: Sadly, no. Given that no Admin has a PC, nor can they have PCs, they aren't players. The only way for them to glean any understanding is through the feedback of players both enthralled and disaffected. They put specialized labor and many hours into the game. Their own lustful vision to create should ALWAYS come first. But without feedback, nothing will change.

Alcarin: I don't see how EltanimRas's post broke the forum rules. Explain, please?

Rivean's post: This isn't the game we were sold on. He's right there. I've said that and asked for a statement on direction often enough, though.

ETA: My *. By all accounts, you played this beautifully, and t probably enjoyed it, so...so-so example. Point still stands.
Last edited by tehkory on Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:19 pm

Gentlemen, my intention was not to start an argument - it was the exact opposite, in fact. To end arguments.

I'm not complaining, I'm not grumbling, I do not feel entitled. Presently, I do not feel like playing. I have simply outlined why, for me, this is not working right now. It may be working for you, it may be fantastic, and if so I hope it stays that way.

There's absolutely no cause for rancor here. To those of you who, like me, are less than happy with the state of affairs, for whatever reason, I advise you to do as I have done and simply say what's bothering you, and step away till whatever is your issue has been fixed. The sense of constant frustration comes when you DO feel entitled - because you play, because you put hours of your time into the game, because you've been a part of the community.

But when you step away, it's very simple. The admins are free to make any game they wish to make, you are welcome to play it if you like.

Quitting SOI was the best thing I could have done for my relationship with the game and its staff :P
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Alcarin » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:26 pm

Alcarin: I don't see how EltanimRas's post broke the forum rules. Explain, please?


As I was not the person who locked that thread, I could offer only conjecture, which I will not waste anyone's time on (my own especially).

However, I will cite this portion of the forum policy for any concerns that may arise about moderator actions:
Official Forum Policies wrote:If you wish to file a formal complaint against a moderator for an abuse of their discretion, please send an email containing the details to the staff. Be thorough, calm and civil; they will investigate your report soon as possible.
Alcarin
 

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby tehkory » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:50 pm

Alcarin wrote:
Alcarin: I don't see how EltanimRas's post broke the forum rules. Explain, please?


As I was not the person who locked that thread, I could offer only conjecture, which I will not waste anyone's time on (my own especially).

However, I will cite this portion of the forum policy for any concerns that may arise about moderator actions:
Official Forum Policies wrote:If you wish to file a formal complaint against a moderator for an abuse of their discretion, please send an email containing the details to the staff. Be thorough, calm and civil; they will investigate your report soon as possible.

This is what we call an escalation. The other topics being locked down were escalation. As you expressed, you know this from work(or was that another admin?). It's generally undesirable, especially as a first resort.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Alcarin » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:10 pm

This is what we call an escalation. The other topics being locked down were escalation. As you expressed, you know this from work(or was that another admin?). It's generally undesirable, especially as a first resort.


Escalations are desirable when the first level of support is unable to answer the question.

Considering Fulgrim and I are the same 'level' and he has made a moderation call, I won't overturn it or become involved.

Elder staff, however, can do so and might or might not choose to do so.

Thus, in this situation, an escalation is the best recourse. You can't have two managers butt heads and countermand one another. If you disagree with one's decision, you need to either discuss it with that person, or that person's superior, not one of their peers.


Do I think that escalation to Elder Staff should always be your first recourse? No. The first recourse should be reaching out to the person whose call you disagree with and attempting to address the issue with them.

If that fails, escalation is preferable over going to that person's peers.
Alcarin
 

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby tehkory » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:47 pm

Alcarin wrote:
This is what we call an escalation. The other topics being locked down were escalation. As you expressed, you know this from work(or was that another admin?). It's generally undesirable, especially as a first resort.


Escalations are desirable when the first level of support is unable to answer the question.

Considering Fulgrim and I are the same 'level' and he has made a moderation call, I won't overturn it or become involved.

Elder staff, however, can do so and might or might not choose to do so.

Thus, in this situation, an escalation is the best recourse. You can't have two managers butt heads and countermand one another. If you disagree with one's decision, you need to either discuss it with that person, or that person's superior, not one of their peers.


Do I think that escalation to Elder Staff should always be your first recourse? No. The first recourse should be reaching out to the person whose call you disagree with and attempting to address the issue with them.

If that fails, escalation is preferable over going to that person's peers.


I guess I'm honestly confused over why you're posting if that's your viewpoint. This is Fulgrim's concern. I can't put you in the position(unintentionally, I assure you) of asking you that all on my lonesome. That said...

I don't think we're not peers in creating this game. I don't see any reason to lock these threads, and I don't see any reason this can't be discussed. But Rivean left to end arguments, and here I am furthering one. Shame on me for that. I'll stop.
tehkory
Master Ent
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:21 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Taurgalas » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:17 pm

I will weigh in just to say our intent in revisiting and reinstating moderation of the forums isn't to halt the inflow of creative, constructive or heartfelt player opinions. I know many view this as censorship and pulling the curtain to obscure imm activity, but this is not the rationale to our decision. This is to help to halt the flow of constant, not constructive negativity that turns off many players and highlights all the bad and none of the good.

None of us think we are perfect. We are volunteers and generally hardworking. Which doesn't negate that some of our players are patient, constructive and helpful. We get a lot of complaints, but we know the game is still a shell and we want to do it right. This means making a lot of mistakes, but owning up to them as well.

Unfortunately, the negativity on the forums has, more than once, turned off and turned away players. It has turned off staff and caused us to miss valid points and suggestions amidst the vitriol. But there is good to the forums and use to them. We didn't want to get rid of them, but we're tired of all the bad.

So the policies were our (potentially mistaken) choice and we're going with it for now. If you want to hate, whine, or argue to argue, PM us; IM us; send in a ticket. Email us. Petition us. It's not that we're not listening, but our forums are our outside face. We want to put our best foot forward to potential players, so please, help us to slow the hurt and hate and anger?

Not that I think Rivean has done that. The rest of the thread felt the right place to put this. He has his reasons, of which this latest choice is a part. You will be missed, but as I always have and always will, I wish you well.
[Petition:***] Why is there a pretty pink pony with doe eyes and a party-balloon cutie mark in the group?

*** orc player name edited out for his/her own protection.
User avatar
Taurgalas
Master Ent
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:07 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Fulgrim » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:49 pm

I didn't think it would prove productive to have players chime in on the exact details of our moderation of the boards. I thought it would excite conversation that would only cause disappointment. We will be needing autonomy to do as we must while watching discussion going on, and I thought being open, fair and honest (and forthwith) with player concerns was a good alternative to an open debate.

Because expectations have been construed as "broken" or twisted in such a way that players feel like they are being abused based on a moderating decision that I made just keep things linear, unbroken, respectful and forthwith given my near immediate and largely outlined response to the poster who's thread was locked, you're seriously grasping at straws if you mean to get to me through emotional appeals alone.

The fact of the matter is, if you know me personally--and know how easy it is to get into contact with me, my reasons for doing anything heavyhanded are likely less malicious or unsound/illogical than I'm being given credit for. I don't know, maybe you could just ask next time?
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
User avatar
Fulgrim
Roleplay Admin
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Oblivion » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:04 pm

Yea... Honestly it seemed like... The question was posed, an answer was given to the quest in the staff announcements... and the original question thread was locked to end discussion since all pertinent information had been given in the aforementioned staff announcement addendum... Not necessarily a 'We don't want to hear your question, locked.'
Oblivion
Dwarf Recruit
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:51 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:26 pm

Oblivion wrote:Yea... Honestly it seemed like... The question was posed, an answer was given to the quest in the staff announcements... and the original question thread was locked to end discussion since all pertinent information had been given in the aforementioned staff announcement addendum... Not necessarily a 'We don't want to hear your question, locked.'


Sorry, I'm in a bit of a grumpy mood from elsewhere - but you've missed my point entirely. My point was not 'Discussion has been squashed', even though it has. My point was this:

a) You announce a moderation policy, which may or may not have been poorly thought out.

b) Your VERY FIRST instance of implementation of said policy happens to be for absolutely no discernible reason AS PER the outlines given in the policy itself.

c) My estimation of your ability to handle this thing according to any standard (including the one published) consequently drops to zero.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:28 pm

Fulgrim wrote:I didn't think it would prove productive to have players chime in on the exact details of our moderation of the boards. I thought it would excite conversation that would only cause disappointment.


Again, if this is the case, you might want to consider adding into your policy that you will not only be moderating for ACTUAL infractions, but also those infractions that haven't yet happened, ie, preemptive moderation.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:33 pm

Fulgrim wrote:The fact of the matter is, if you know me personally--and know how easy it is to get into contact with me, my reasons for doing anything heavyhanded are likely less malicious or unsound/illogical than I'm being given credit for. I don't know, maybe you could just ask next time?


No, I do not know you personally, nor should I, or any other player of this game, be expected to know you personally in order to correctly assess your actions as an administrator.

As to 'ask next time' please see my response to Oblivion. This is not a matter of your being suspected of foul play - you are not. This is a matter of there being a vast difference between policy stated and policy implemented, and consequently, a matter of how effective staff is perceived to be in the formation and implementation of policy. It's not really an 'ask me what my intentions were' sort of question. Your intentions are not being questioned.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Fulgrim » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:46 pm

Rivean wrote:No, I do not know you personally, nor should I, or any other player of this game, be expected to know you personally in order to correctly assess your actions as an administrator.


Okay, that seems reasonable so far. I as a person am open to discussion with other players matters they'd like to keep private, I don't see anything wrong with having easily reachable channels of communication. If you have a problem with that, I'll just respect your opinion not to use those avenues.

Rivean wrote:As to 'ask next time' please see my response to Oblivion. This is not a matter of your being suspected of foul play - you are not.


I didn't think I was.

Rivean wrote:This is a matter of there being a vast difference between policy stated and policy implemented, and consequently, a matter of how effective staff is perceived to be in the formation and implementation of policy.


Now I don't know what your intentions were with this language, but consequently, due to what I am reading and how my mind is processing it, this is where you lost me.

The closing of the thread was stated to be because I didn't think players giving feedback on how they -think- forum policy should be would be productive, because again, I felt like it would excite discussion that would only lead to disappointment.

Because what I'm reading here seems to say "you guys can't possibly come up with an effective policy on your own, and that's why you need players to help you form one with their own thoughtful feedback and opinions", and even if that wasn't the intention, that's definitely what I'm going to fight.

We're perfectly capable of administrating this game, thank you very much.

Farewell.
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
User avatar
Fulgrim
Roleplay Admin
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Rivean » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:53 pm

Fulgrim wrote:Because what I'm reading here seems to say "you guys can't possibly come up with an effective policy on your own, and that's why you need players to help you form one with their own thoughtful feedback and opinions", and even if that wasn't the intention, that's definitely what I'm going to fight.


No, that was not what I said nor what I meant. However, since you've raised the point, my opinion on this is that feedback is more likely to bring you to whatever is the most optimal policy. As I said earlier, you need only to look back over the past couple of months to see exactly how many times staff have reversed a decision based on feedback from players. This should tell you that at least in some instances, feedback has proved to be necessary. I don't even know why we're arguing about this, if we are, at all.

What I meant however, was that when you post a moderation policy, and then moderate in a way that is explicitly not covered by said policy, I lose confidence in your ability to put up policies I can rely on AND your ability to restrict yourself to the contents of your own policies.

And if this is the way you handle your very first implementation of your own policy, I'm left with very little optimism for the future.
User avatar
Rivean
Honored Elf
 
Posts: 390
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Farewell For Now

Postby Fulgrim » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:55 pm

We aren't arguing, and feedback and suggestions are taken into account, but they aren't necessarily always welcomed on every range of topic and account.

We've decided not to open the floor for discussion regarding forum policy. If that doesn't seem right, you're free to contact Elder Staff with your grievances. That would involve going over my head and that of General Staff, yes.
(Morgoth):
I had a part in everything.
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed.
I left ruin behind me when I returned.
But I also carried ruin with me.
She, the mistress of her own lust.
User avatar
Fulgrim
Roleplay Admin
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:34 pm

Next

Return to General Discussion

Connect

FacebookTwitter

Login

Who is online

Amazing people browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Login