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Hunger and Food

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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:03 am

Frigga wrote:A 4 oz fillet of cod isn't as filling as you might imagine. If we want to make the fillet bigger (and thus more filling) we can simply have less fillets per fish.

Rivean wrote:My PC recently bought some fish from Arni, which cost 4 bits and weighed 3 pounds. I used the plain-fish-fillet craft on it, and successfully cooked some fish fillet.


Part of that is a building error, the grilled fish fillet is somehow set to weight 6 times as much as the raw fillet that went into it. :oops:

Yeah, there's a big difference between a four ounce fillet and a three pound one. (The latter's twelve times as large -- 1600ish calories, as opposed to 130ish.)

Frigga wrote:Also, Arni's not the best way to consider coded price, he charges jacked up prices to people buying back from him to counter the glut people sell to him.

That's ... not how supply and demand work? If there's a glut of meat on the market, he should be selling cheap, and paying peanuts. I understand that on a meta-game level we're trying to keep things fun the players of hunting PCs, but still. How are indie hunters doing for income with the current prices?

Frigga wrote:Also, perhaps we should look into some ability to examine an item and get a vague inkling of how filling it would be. Which would then leave people the choice of buying something for price, taste, or food stuffing properties.

That'd be fun, but so long as weights are accurate, we should be able to estimate fairly well by extrapolating from our rl knowledge.

Emilio wrote:Thank you, Rivean. I'll come back in a few months.

Probably weeks, if you're really worried about it. But the game's hardly unplayable meanwhile -- it just takes a little working around. It's not the most immersive thing ever, but it can definitely be glossed over.

Fulgrim wrote:No "actual" work is performed to earn this salary, or rather, the work isn't codedly tied to the amount you get paid on a regular basis.

More to the point, they're not tied to the amount of non-virtual time spent in game, which most expenses are.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Rivean » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:23 am

Fulgrim wrote:Increasing the amount of coin flowing onto the grid without having a cause-and-effect attached to it will ultimately become detrimental to the economy's health.


Not necessarily, not if the purpose of increasing the amount of cash is to lower the value of the currency so that we can deal in lower denominations than the present value of one copper. From what I understand, part of the problem is that realistically, many things would be priced under a copper but we can't do that because there's no lower unit of currency.

If expenditures AND incomes are raised by the same amount, then there will be no change in real prices, while still allowing us lower units of currency to work with for low priced items.

ETA: Although we DO need a change in the real prices of many things, most pertinently to this discussion, the prices of food.

Frigga wrote:A 4 oz fillet of cod isn't as filling as you might imagine. If we want to make the fillet bigger (and thus more filling) we can simply have less fillets per fish.


This might be true, but a decent meal can certainly be made out of one, and even if the fillet is eaten without any additional ingredients, a 4 oz fillet should be more filling than it presently is. Right now, assuming what my PC ate was a 4 oz fillet, it has no noticeable affect on hunger levels - in other words, you can eat a 4 oz fillet without feeling as if you've eaten anything at all. Now that's plainly out of whack.

Frigga wrote:Also, Arni's not the best way to consider coded price, he charges jacked up prices to people buying back from him to counter the glut people sell to him.


As EltanimRas said, that's really not how economies and businesses are supposed to work. A surplus in supply inevitably leads to a drop in price. The aim of the firm (Arni) is not to buy as many products as possible from suppliers. The aim of the firm is to sell goods and services and make a profit. Arni should most definitely be buying for peanuts and selling for slightly more.

Please burn your resident economist in a vat of oil and hire me instead. I'm volunteering my services for nothing more than the occasional cheesebun.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:59 am

From what I understand, part of the problem is that realistically, many things would be priced under a copper but we can't do that because there's no lower unit of currency.


Well, you handle that the way we always have, I'd imagine - by buying/selling these items in batches.

I even poked at the code earlier to see about updating the whole "That's not even worth my time!" thing to comment on how the item is worth less than 1 cp, so sell more.

Right now, assuming what my PC ate was a 4 oz fillet, it has no noticeable affect on hunger levels - in other words, you can eat a 4 oz fillet without feeling as if you've eaten anything at all. Now that's plainly out of whack.


That's beholden to the current breakdown in hunger levels and how they divide. Peeking at the code earlier we have ten levels from "almost starved to death" to "absolutely stuffed" so with how that divides out the fish fillet might indeed exist between two of those levels so you wouldn't neccessarily see a change in your coded level. However, if you'd eaten the fish fillet with a side-dish of some sort I'm guessing your would have.

Which if the concern is people getting more of an inkling on things, we could add more level names (maybe 5?). So you'd see changes more often to give a better feeling what you were eating was actually helping. Ultimately, the levels are simply a reflection for the benefit of the player, code simply pays attention to numeric values.

Of course, even then, obviously we'll still have items that wouldn't neccessarily raise you an entire level when eaten individually.

The aim of the firm (Arni) is not to buy as many products as possible from suppliers. The aim of the firm is to sell goods and services and make a profit. Arni should most definitely be buying for peanuts and selling for slightly more.


Arni has dutifully served an expanded purpose while other systems were/are being put in place. No doubt he'll be scaling back on his ravenous desire for raw meat in due time.

Please burn your resident economist in a vat of oil and hire me instead. I'm volunteering my services for nothing more than the occasional cheesebun.


Most of these prices were set by me before said resident economist was in his current capacity. Again, I did it, so direct ire towards the appropriate source. ;)

However, if you are serious in the desire to assist in some capacity and provide ideas, PM me and lay out what you are interested in.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Droll » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:19 am

However, if you'd eaten the fish fillet with a side-dish of some sort I'm guessing your would have.


Try eating the 'higher tier' foods like brewis and hash if anyone is having trouble eating fish. They fill you up faster than a few frozen tilapia fillets.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Frigga » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:57 am

Don't forget the ribs. ;)
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Bri » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:06 am

Something that has come to my attention is the amount of food you get back from cutting up a length of offal that weighs less than a pound. You get 12 pounds of meat from it. Granted, I am very grateful that we now have a craft to cut up these small bits of extras, but I think the output is too much. Maybe one or two half pound pieces would be more appropriate. I'd side with just one because of how small it is.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
chop meat-extras
You take up a sharp, pitted-bog-iron butcher knife and chop a raw collection of offal into meat hunks.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
eval offal
It is a raw collection of offal

You would guess that this item weighs less than a pound.

<****** / ^^^^^^ / ||||||>
You set aside 12 pound-weight hunk of raw organ meats, finishing your work.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby sagachi » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:16 pm

Olthadir wrote:If that is the case, why is the Ironwood Inn larders filled with cooked food?

I can personally attest to the back room being filled with cooked food, and in addition to that two additional shelves being filled with food that has not been placed in the storeroom to reduce the massive list what would come up when inquiring about things to purchase.

I don't want to cook anything because it seems like no one is interested in buying anything cooked.



It's not that, it's why pay for food at the inn, when I can join the lodge or the guard, get paid, and eat for free? But making the food cost at either of those would cripple what little economy there is because coin -in-flow is small and coin outflow is large. Person usually makes 2 silver per rl week. That's one or two meals. And you will usually eat closer to 14 times a week if you are an active pc.

Solution? Increase pay rates, make food harder to come by ie: smaller portions off animals? And tweak the hunger ratios? 50 sips of water= excessive, especially compared to I can eat 4 hash and be stuffed
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Songweaver » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:30 pm

Do what real taverns do:

Hire entertainers or people to promote the Inn, get folks in, and get them to buy food/drink. What can the Inn offer them that their clans can't? The Inn should be offering them a social experience unique and entertaining and worth putting down some money on. Regular Inn-ran RPTs and events would be key to that.

Also, think about gambling. If the Inn begins to promote regular gambling events, consider giving out free food and drink (since you have so much) to those putting down money, but design the gambling in such a way that the Inn is going to ultimately profit off of them. This is exactly what casinos do.

Considers "specials" and sales.

In short, run the Inn like a real business and don't expect the game's economy to funnel people towards you, and I think you could find some real fun there.

Also, vNPC sales would probably help.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby sagachi » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:58 pm

Oh definitely. I have been an advocate for the vNPC economy for some time. A game cannot run off a small playerbase making up the entire economy. PCs are not the -only- people who live in the town. As such, what are all the other hundreds of vNPC populants doing? With room descriptions hosting vNPCs as being active, especially in the tavern, there should be a considerable patronage actually buying things. I think once the nNPCs start buying crap and pumping coin back ingame, things will balance out. But vNPCs are hard to manage. Thus why I offered the pay raise and food quantity reduction ideas.
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Re: Hunger and Food

Postby Hawkwind » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:37 pm

Songweaver wrote:Do what real taverns do:

Hire entertainers or people to promote the Inn, get folks in, and get them to buy food/drink. What can the Inn offer them that their clans can't? The Inn should be offering them a social experience unique and entertaining and worth putting down some money on. Regular Inn-ran RPTs and events would be key to that.

Also, think about gambling. If the Inn begins to promote regular gambling events, consider giving out free food and drink (since you have so much) to those putting down money, but design the gambling in such a way that the Inn is going to ultimately profit off of them. This is exactly what casinos do.

Considers "specials" and sales.

In short, run the Inn like a real business and don't expect the game's economy to funnel people towards you, and I think you could find some real fun there.

Also, vNPC sales would probably help.



This, a gagillion times. Though not the vnpc sales.
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