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Gear Creep and Perception

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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby MrDvAnt » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:18 am

Taurgalas wrote:Yup. And your mithril double-edged broadsword, too. :twisted:


Sigh...fiiiine!
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Red » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:11 pm

[Edited by Alcarin: While it's alright to express dissatisfaction, please review our forum policies (linked below) and endeavor to keep posts non-inflammatory.]

[Forum Policies Link: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1712 ]
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby toofast » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:16 am

Fulgrim wrote:
High quality armor in the orc sphere that cannot be crafted in game.


Fictitious.

As are other things. Come on people. Some of it happened, and was resolved, sure, but that's not representative on what we "allow" and what is "okay".

Gear creep also isn't as bad as it's being made out to be given nothing is handed out that isn't craftable, and the scarcity issues are being discussed and are going to be approached/resolved soon, alongside that.


This did indeed happen before you were on staff. The stat boosts and ingots and fancy weapons, etc. are all spot on as well. Appreciate the hell outta you guys, but let's not go 1984 or Brave New World up in here. Crack open a history book (even better some logs). No hate Fulgrim, love you.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:11 am

krelm wrote:Just for the record, this is old news that was resolved ages ago, both perpetrated by now-resigned staffers who probably didn't realize what they were doing at the time.


Also, it's long-since been resolved. As a matter of fact both of the infractions were fixed the day they happened.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Droll » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:39 pm

Can we please stop trying to "import" ingots of refined iron and steel? We might as well just delete the bog from the map. Seriously, what's the point of even having resources in the game map if we're just going to turn around have staff load it? There's no point to risk dying if it can just be sent down the river.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:57 pm

Especially with free paydays that you don't have to do anything to obtain and never run out. That doesn't make very much sense.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Matt » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:39 pm

I love, love, LOVE the separation of IC and OOC realms of information. Almost as much as I love chocolate milk.


[Alcarin will also make you say random things if you post IC info to the forums. But the concern originally voiced has been dealt with, rest assured!]
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby radioactivejesus » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:50 pm

Edit by Alcarin to remove IC info. Please see below post for official statement on this matter.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Droll » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:58 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:I believe staff have standardized play across all the clans


[Edit by Alcarin to remove IC details that are no longer pertinent, I promise you, those of you in the know.]

EDIT: My b lol.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby tehkory » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:10 pm

krelm wrote:Especially with free paydays that you don't have to do anything to obtain and never run out. That doesn't make very much sense.

*pokes his head in*
I know, I know, I didn't log in tonight, so I'm yet again posting while not actively playing. /tongue-in-cheek

But this is all the more a concern, now that the Lodge and Ironwood Inn are being tested for vNPC purchasing!
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:43 pm

tehkory wrote:
krelm wrote:Especially with free paydays that you don't have to do anything to obtain and never run out. That doesn't make very much sense.

*pokes his head in*
I know, I know, I didn't log in tonight, so I'm yet again posting while not actively playing. /tongue-in-cheek

But this is all the more a concern, now that the Lodge and Ironwood Inn are being tested for vNPC purchasing!


Free everything for everyone!

ETA:

Except orcs, I guess. They get the shaft for free.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Taurgalas » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:05 am

tehkory wrote:But this is all the more a concern, now that the Lodge and Ironwood Inn are being tested for vNPC purchasing!


Heaven forbid the vnpc are outfitted with the crappy armor people make to practice with so that you can buy the nice stuff which is the only kind a PC will pay for!!! The horror! Leave our vnpc starving and naked!

More seriously, this isn't as arbitrary or as 1. Costless or 2. Clan-rewarding as it may at first sound.

All of the Lodge (and potentially Inn) shops have two parts. The Buyer and the Seller. The Buyer pays out to ANYONE who sells raw resources (logs, pelts, ore, etc.) of the appropriate type. Small payments, but something so that people can operate without a clan if they want. It's also a way for people who are clanned to pick up a little extra. These raw items are paid for by the Lodge/Inn from the profits of the Seller, where finished goods are stocked. Remember that to create the final goods, the lodge has to pick up additional items not supplied to the buyers, not to mention keep the buyers and QM funded for these paydays. This is the job of the foremen, to move the goods, supplies and money. If they pocket it or neglect it, it will become quickly apparent to all (inability to craft, inability to sell raw goods, empty shops) and the foreman can be fired and replaced.

How's that for creepy NPC sales? :)
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:31 am

That still doesn't change the fact that it's mostly free money (sans the cost of the crap to craft whatever it is they're selling-- unless it's raw materials (logs, ore, etc) which can be gathered for free) being provided to these shops. Having a shop that makes sales solely through PCs means the shop has to provide crap that PCs want. Making it so that vNPCs buy stuff means you can stock your shop with any old crap that has a coded value and you get a profit, regardless.

Have a bunch of old worn-out weapons nobody wants? Slap it in the store room and have vNPCs buy it!
Have loads of tatterred, nearly-broken armor? VNPC!
Have 500 bundles of firewood?

Etc.

This, on top of the already free paydays (which has been harped on and on about in other threads) means a whole lot more free money is about to hit circulation.

I wouldn't give a crap or otherwise be posting if there weren't good quality iron (and steel?) ingots that could be bought with said free money.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't give a crap either if orcs could get the same set-up, vis a vis honed iron ingots/steel ingots for sale in their single shop.

Otherwise, we're gonna have to kick PvP into high gear so we can loot all this great stuff off of humans just to keep up with the gear creep.
Last edited by krelm on Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby radioactivejesus » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:38 am

pretty much agree entirely with the above post.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby tehkory » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:42 am

krelm wrote:
I wouldn't give a crap or otherwise be posting if there weren't good quality iron (and steel?) ingots that could be bought with said free money.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't give a crap either if orcs could get the same set-up, vis a vis honed iron ingots/steel ingots for sale in their single shop.

Otherwise, we're just gonna have to kick PvP into high gear just so we can loot all this great stuff off of humans to keep up with the gear creep.

It'd be interesting to see orcs given a craft timer for super labor intensive mining that takes more time and gives less ore, but it's otherwise 'free.' Balancing it hopefully against the human ability to buy ore up.

Krelm it's right on the money for why this is a concern. None of what Taur said has anything to do with creep, even though each point is valid for why we should have vNPC sales.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Patty » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:44 am

radioactivejesus wrote:pretty much agree entirely with the above post.


Krelm hit the nail on the head.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Frigga » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:59 am

We'll make sure to discuss soon balancing the balancing (whether that's adding or removing access appropriately) Orc and Human access to ore/ingots via non PC- crafted manners.

I'll write a proposal tonight or this weekend.

So, thank you have the concern and feedback.

PS - Proper PvP for gear is obviously a viable and IC appropriate option regardless though. ;)
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Droll » Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:54 am

Frigga wrote:PS - Proper PvP for gear is obviously a viable and IC appropriate option regardless though. ;)



Being able to receive free top quality metal and what not without ever leaving the gates discourages PVP. Why would anyone in their right mind risk going to a bog or getting ganked by orcs/tarks for..well, any reason? Having this as an option rewards you for hiding inside. I'm trying not to go into any IC details, just, the way I've seen it said IG, it sounds -exactly- like groups are being rewarded with high quality ingots because they aren't going outside to get resources.

It's very easy I'm wrong, but this thread mostly started because some clans are being able to have staff loaded, top end ingots forged by crafters and paid for with freely given coin, and RPT rewards seemed a bit high. I don't see how more ingots being put IG would help anything, even if they are made available to everyone.


As for vNPC sales..time to triple all prices and get the shinies flowing in. :roll:
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Alcarin » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:01 am

We are continuing to work on the gear creep issue. We are not unaware that there is a growing issue, and we do not intend to let it go unaddressed.

That said, like all things, we need a bit of patience while we hammer out the final details to take live.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby someguy » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:13 am

Most of the work seems like it's designed to turn gear creep into a gear sprint.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby tehkory » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:41 am

someguy wrote:Most of the work seems like it's designed to turn gear creep into a gear sprint.

This is one of the difficulties that comes up when you release the fun, populist designs before or without the unfun, policing parts. There really wasn't a need for new armor, for example. And I imagine we're going to see even tougher mobs, and then need better armor and weapons. Vicious cycle.

Atonement somewhat worked, usually, without atrocious gear creep. When you start adding two forms of income, as well as Atonement's foraging system, and THEN add SoI's craft timer system...you've got three systems for easily managing growth of wealth in both materials and cash. There absolutely has to be greatly increased economic drain to match these three(four? five?) overlapping systems.

ETA:
Foraging. 'Free' production of material. Limited by time/space, may reduce craft timer investment.
Paydays. 'Free' influx of cash over time. Limited by time/rank.
VNPC sales. 'Free' influx of cash over time. Limited by materials(never an issue in SoI that was, nor now)' and a ceiling for sales per week.
PC Sales. Zero sum. Limited by cash in the economy and coinsinks to remove it. Limited by crafting limits and foraging limits.
Crafting. Limited by materials and time. Difficult to rely on, as limits are reduced by stacking and by PC skill. The higher a PC's skill, the lower the actual timer is. Material is usually limitless, except for a few rare bottlenecks.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby mongwen » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Economy's already got too many drains.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby krelm » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:59 pm

As far as vNPC sales and my opinions of it go, I was under the assumption that the code was just shoved back into place from old SoI, where you could make thousands of moneys just by owning a shop and putting crap in it-- I know this from experience. (Anyone remember the Splintered Skull in Minas Morgul? I was probably the richest little goblin shit IG until we went to TE.)

I've been assured that it's not the case, though I suppose time will tell. As far as honed iron and steel ingots being thrown wantonly around goes, I've been told that isn't the case, either. I don't exactly have access to everything the humans do on a daily basis, so most of the information I get is second or third hand information blown out of proportion by my own paranoia.

Regardless! As long as I don't suddenly see a human clan in finely-made honed iron ringmail armor (or what the hell ever), then I'm fine.

TLDR: As long as both spheres can get what the other sphere has with the same amount of work, then there isn't really a problem.
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Alcarin » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:30 pm

Just as a note: Yes, the vnpc shopping mechanic of oSoI is not what we are testing, currently.

We're testing a brand new system made just for this game, that will ideally be much easier to balance and keep in check.

Additionally, no, it does not rain gold, steel, iron, and magic in Utterby. Things have gotten a little far advanced in SOME respects, which just means that we're already discussing how to rein them in again.

So, chillax dudebros. Have a bit of faith in the heartless monsters who guide the course and balance of the game you despise. ;)
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Re: Gear Creep and Perception

Postby Fulgrim » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:04 pm

Well, no one hates my work more than me, so you guys will have to get in line anyway.
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