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Roleplay out Search

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Roleplay out Search

Postby MrT2G » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:00 pm

Don't just spam search. Emote it. Roleplay it.

That is all.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Justanothacivy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:19 pm

imo put a coded delay on it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby radioactivejesus » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:05 pm

currently if you walk into a room where thre's a beginner hide pc, you have a 0% chance of spotting them until they decide to take an action that risks revealing themselves. Because of that, I consider searching a room once to pretty much just be taking a brief, cursory look around. Of course, spam searching 10 times as fast as you can type is another matter...

The stealth system really needs to undergo a big overhaul someday
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby MrT2G » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:11 pm

Search also has about a 90% chance to reveal you despite the level of your Hide skill. This was at least my experience with Master/Legendary hide.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby radioactivejesus » Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:16 pm

MrT2G wrote:Search also has about a 90% chance to reveal you despite the level of your Hide skill. This was at least my experience with Master/Legendary hide.

that's ridiculous. The stealth system is badly in need of some work if a beginner scout has the same chances to avoid detection as a master.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Songweaver » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:52 am

That's not really how it works.

Searching rolls using your INT vs their HIDE skill. Having a higher hide/sneak skill greatly increases your ability to avoid detection. However, even at Heroic/Legendary levels of hide/sneak, you'll still be spotted sometimes (not 90% of the time, though), particularly against people/mobs with high intelligence.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby EltanimRas » Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:28 pm

Justanothacivy wrote:imo put a coded delay on it. :mrgreen:

I second this.

I don't mind if people don't emote -- I can assume they're looking around attentively and/or just happened to notice something by luck. If I don't have a pmote set, I do like it if they wait for me to pose where I am and what I'm doing before they start reacting.

... But it seems senseless to have a failure check on any skill that can just be spammed till it succeeds.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:52 pm

I would rather see it be a proper craft, with skill vs skill checked, but remove the RNG from the scenario.

So long as spamming is required for people to see all that they can, people will spam to ensure just that.

Address the problem not the symptom.

Alternatively, just remove the third person messaging unless a person happens to hiding, then no one else gets spammed.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Nimrod » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:12 pm

I'm considering putting a craft timer on the command. 30 minutes added on to your craft timer every time you use it should deter some folks I would think.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:21 pm

That's a deterrent to the behavior, but it doesn't address why the behavior is prevalent.
But it only deters those people who craft extensively.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Eru » Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:31 pm

I'm not sure that's a solution either. It'll really boost the value of sneak and hide in combat characters if no one is going to be able to search but for every 30 seconds. The only time I have ever run into people searching is when they're out in the wilds and usually they'll toss an emote as they're doing it. I don't think it's such a prevalent problem as what some are making it out to be. 5 seconds or 30 seconds, people are still going to spam it.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Brian » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Eru wrote:I'm not sure that's a solution either. It'll really boost the value of sneak and hide in combat characters if no one is going to be able to search but for every 30 seconds. The only time I have ever run into people searching is when they're out in the wilds and usually they'll toss an emote as they're doing it. I don't think it's such a prevalent problem as what some are making it out to be. 5 seconds or 30 seconds, people are still going to spam it.


The difference would be that if it were every 30 seconds and you are a hidden character in the room it would give you a better window of time to attempt to sneak out of the room instead of hanging out while everyone searches until you are inevitably found.

There's also the fact that if you are out in the wilderness and you are searching routinely with every room that isn't reflected in the pace at which you travel. We have to consider that search is more than a cursory look around; it'd have to be if it's revealing characters who are very deliberately hidden. Upping the search timer would reflect that better in some ways. Not sure it's the ultimate solution, but it is a start.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:26 am

search is not alone here, scan is at fault as well.
Arguably the terms are synonymous to begin with, though one does emphasize vision.
The same issue exists with both commands.
Namely: Results are not consistent.
If a given attempt would always show everything you could conceivable find at your skill level, there would be no need to spam it in the first place.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:26 am

cfelch wrote:The same issue exists with both commands.
Namely: Results are not consistent.
If a given attempt would always show everything you could conceivable find at your skill level, there would be no need to spam it in the first place.

A D20 isn't consistent either, but that doesn't mean your GM's going to let you roll it till you get what you want. Skill levels determine the odds, not [necessarily] the outcome.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Brian » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:20 am

EltanimRas wrote:A D20 isn't consistent either, but that doesn't mean your GM's going to let you roll it till you get what you want. Skill levels determine the odds, not [necessarily] the outcome.


I like this line of thought. The reason that people search (or at least I believe the primary reason) is that they want to uncover the possibility of hidden danger in the room which, if they don't uncover it, could cause some kind of harm to their character. This is comparable in some ways to a saving throw. Mostly, you get one saving throw per instance; if you pass it great, but if you fail you don't get to roll again until you pass, which is exactly what you get to do with search at present.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Dirgs » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:47 am

How about a timer that prevents you from searching in the same room for a set amount of time, similar to how Forage works? Maybe not -that- long. Like... 5RL minutes or so?

The only thing is the problem of twinkish NPCs spamming hide with no emotes...
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:26 pm

A d20 is representative of odds.
But there is no real random factor to apply here.
Knowledge of potential hiding spots is better reflected via skill.
It should purely be a skill vs skill check, where skill is adjusted by stats/environmental factors.

On a separate but related topic, have any strides been made towards instancing search results?
Aka, one persons success not revealing the hidden person/item to everyone.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Justanothacivy » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:54 pm

Brian wrote:
EltanimRas wrote:A D20 isn't consistent either, but that doesn't mean your GM's going to let you roll it till you get what you want. Skill levels determine the odds, not [necessarily] the outcome.


I like this line of thought. The reason that people search (or at least I believe the primary reason) is that they want to uncover the possibility of hidden danger in the room which, if they don't uncover it, could cause some kind of harm to their character. This is comparable in some ways to a saving throw. Mostly, you get one saving throw per instance; if you pass it great, but if you fail you don't get to roll again until you pass, which is exactly what you get to do with search at present.


I'd like to emphasize that a delay on the command would instantly fix the issue of spamming. This is to balance the pvp issue that has sprouted up from folks tracking at set jog and spamming search.

Rebalancing the skill check and the other harder coded issues could be dealt with later once the Alpha worries are over.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:58 pm

cfelch wrote:It should purely be a skill vs skill check, where skill is adjusted by stats/environmental factors.

I don't think we actually have a search skill anymore -- I think the check is supposed to roll vs. intelligence now. Or something.

Technicalities aside, this is an interesting argument. Personally, I'd say there's no hiding place so good (and no search skill so low) not to entail some chance of discovery. A magically invisible hider can still be bumped into by the clumsy fool searching for him. Or suffer an untimely sneeze.

What about the reverse? Can the searcher's skill be so high and the hider's so low that discovery ought to be inevitable? In an enclosed space, yeah, probably. But in an outdoor room that's supposed to represent a square mile of territory? I'm not so sure.

Anyway, in an ideal world, I think I'd vote for something like a 30-60 second delay. Long enough for a hidden player to type a think or a feel, long enough for them to attempt an ambush, long enough for them to take a look at you and your companions before they hurry and sneak off ... but not so long that they can hang out and eavesdrop on large chunks of conversation without any fear of discovery.

A thirty-minute addition to the craft timer seems a bit harsh to me -- I don't imagine most characters who search spending two IC hours at it.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:18 am

I will agree that no one is so good at hiding that they cannot be found.
I also agree that no one is so horrible at searching that they will never find anything.
But these are not mutually exclusive things.
It is fully possible for one individual to be all but unseen by another individual.
In the scenario of the best hider and the worst searcher, in order for the one to find the other... the hider would need to fumble their attempt, while the searcher would need to fumble, and then get a critical success after that (to represent it being accidental).
Assuming these are d100 rolls, that's a one in a million chance.
But the odds of getting such a skewed matchup to begin with is likely worse.
Nothing is impossible, but some things are exceedingly improbable.

What if you could only get one chance for new search results per room per game day, unless the status of hidden objects in the room changes?
Then one instance of the command would represent checking every potential spot your character thinks worth checking.
The rational of spamming is that you are finding more spots worthy of checking, no?
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby tehkory » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:52 pm

*wanders on in*
I ought to play this game again, -some- day. Maybe tomorrow. But definitely not today.

That -said-, I've read this off-and-on, and here's the thing: hiding in the same 'room' for any period of time means someone, if they are actively searching, will find you. That's not a problem. The reason this isn't a problem is because we've got another skill. That skill is -sneak-. If you don't want to be found when someone's looking for you...you sneak away. They won't see where you went unless you fail. They won't even know you were ever -there- unless they fail, short of having watched you hide.

There's no need for code changes(though a delay wouldn't go amiss, but certainly a craft timer on search would be both ineffective -and- ridiculous, depending upon the type of character doing the searching). People with legendary hide/sneak can easily get away with really quite-good odds of success, assuming they aren't wearing skill-reducing armor. They just can't sit there invincible while people search for them, either. The game's code in this scenario worked as-is throughout all of Atonement/Parallel, without this really being an issue. The only reason it seems like an issue is when it's presented as a false dichotomy.

Oh, and if you want to stop someone from hiding once you've found them, watch <person> does that. I think the game's code is more solid than people give it credit for. They just tend not to think of the vast quantity of situations it covers, and/or not actually know how it works.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:57 am

tehkory wrote:That -said-, I've read this off-and-on, and here's the thing: hiding in the same 'room' for any period of time means someone, if they are actively searching, will find you. That's not a problem.

If you know someone is there, and you do nothing but continuously search until you find them, then yes, you will eventually find them. But if you don't know someone is there (or you shouldn't, ICly, and are just over-reacting to, say, a 'someone' craft echo), searching continuously until you find them isn't a rational thing to do. And in either case, such continuous searching should take time (although do I agree that a delay is far preferable to a craft timer, for a variety of reasons).

tehkory wrote:The reason this isn't a problem is because we've got another skill. That skill is -sneak-.

That skill is typing 'sneak' faster than the other person can type 'search', without any thinks, feels, or other dilly-dallying. :?

tehkory wrote:Oh, and if you want to stop someone from hiding once you've found them, watch <person> does that. I think the game's code is more solid than people give it credit for. They just tend not to think of the vast quantity of situations it covers, and/or not actually know how it works.

I don't suppose you want to write the helpfile for the watch command, Kory? I'll put it in with a "this helpfile brought to you by the letters k, o, r, and y" tag if you do. Or, you know, some more serious and less Sesame-Street equivalent. ;)

[Edit, side note: I think in my ideal game, stalking and spying on a patrol out in the wilds is risky but doable, all simulationist arguments aside. And the listen code on 'talk' reflects the idea of the stalker's having to keep a reasonable distance pretty well.]
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby Brian » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:47 am

tehkory wrote:
That -said-, I've read this off-and-on, and here's the thing: hiding in the same 'room' for any period of time means someone, if they are actively searching, will find you. That's not a problem. The reason this isn't a problem is because we've got another skill. That skill is -sneak-. If you don't want to be found when someone's looking for you...you sneak away. They won't see where you went unless you fail. They won't even know you were ever -there- unless they fail, short of having watched you hide.


I think that the thrust of this is that people are OOCly informed when someone is hiding in the room when they're out in the wilds because if you sneak into a room with someone hidden in it and you fail your sneak check you will lose the hidden flag in the prompt, which instantly turns into searching until you find whatever broke your hide. However, your character would not know that they were hidden, nor would they know that they were observed unless they saw someone plainly observing them.

I think that might be the real culprit here. I don't know if there are many people who go around searching in every room that they enter; I can say though that I bet that 99% of the time that you're patrolling and some members of your group are hidden and they lose their hide status going into a room that it will trigger a flurry of searching. But how does your character know they aren't hidden anymore? It's using OOC prompts from the code and translating it to IC actions.

ETA: I was thinking about this more and I believe the easiest thing might be to change the messages received when sneaking. First up would be removing the hidden tag from the prompt when you're hidden, like we had in old SoI. The second would be removing the notification message upon failing a sneak check into a room. Currently, if you sneak into a room and fail you get the "You are observed." message or whatever it is. If both of those things were removed I think you'd see a lot less search spamming because there would be no magic indicator that lets you know there is something hidden in the room, which is as it should be.
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:48 am

Brian wrote:I think that the thrust of this is that people are OOCly informed when someone is hiding in the room when they're out in the wilds because if you sneak into a room with someone hidden in it and you fail your sneak check you will lose the hidden flag in the prompt, which instantly turns into searching until you find whatever broke your hide. However, your character would not know that they were hidden, nor would they know that they were observed unless they saw someone plainly observing them.

Yeah, how OOC or IC 'someone' craft echoes are may be debatable, but this scenario (which is presumably far more common) is definitely OOC.

[Edit: I'd also agree that if people stop spam-searching (whether because we make the change Brian suggests or for any other reason), then a coded delay becomes instantly much less valuable.]
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Re: Roleplay out Search

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:59 am

Brian wrote:The second would be removing the notification message upon failing a sneak check into a room. Currently, if you sneak into a room and fail you get the "You are observed." message or whatever it is.


Personally, I like the chance of noticing if people are noticing you, but I don't want to assume I would notice.

A good observer wouldn't let on that they saw what they saw.

If hidden status was instanced, it wouldn't matter if...

you failed your skillcheck. You would still be hidden (albeit poorly).
someone found you. You would still be hidden, they just know where.
someone saw you sneak, you would still be hidden to others.

The only time I recall ever spamming search was due to a code bug that i hope is gone.
The one where hidden objects would forget who hid them.
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