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Craft Timer

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Craft Timer

Postby Nimrod » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:38 pm

I'd like to get some feedback from you all on the way we're handling craft timers.

Do you like the timer bank?

What are the things you like/dislike about it?
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Brian » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:50 pm

What is a timer bank??
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby tehkory » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:54 pm

Brian wrote:What is a timer bank??

Craft timers don't stop you from crafting until you hit 24+hours of timers. The 'timer bank' is more like a 'timer sink,' really. You can toss out 24 hours worth of crafts in 5 minutes.

ETA:

It's a nice thought. Does that mean it's a nice idea? I'm not so certain. It was meant to prevent dragging people away from RP, so they can 'get it all done at once' and then get back to RPing, hopefully. Not sure that, in my experience, it didn't make the community even more focused on crafting/code than it was in the first place. Answering that probably requires a birds-eye view, and a lot of experience in this community/watching it from above. I'm not sure how many individuals are left that have both of those.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby cfelch » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:28 pm

My biggest gripe is that the times are in general too long, the player is being charged full RL cost if not more per action, even though game time is sped up dramatically.

Perhaps if the output of any given craft was stepped up a bit to represent having done it several times.
Not only would that better justify the time sink, it would also reduce spamming of any one craft.

Because for many crafts, unless the actual time it takes to display the messaging on the screen is grossly less than what a given action would take in RL (after time conversion), I don't understand why they incur a debt to the craft timer bank at all.

Also... we need some fodder crafts with no timer/restrictions for ease of branching sake. This is more or less virgin wilderness, organic resources are plentiful.

Oh speaking of organic resources, can plants be made a separate item category in the room display like people and furniture? Would help some growing areas.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Frigga » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:18 pm

Perhaps if the output of any given craft was stepped up a bit to represent having done it several times.
Not only would that better justify the time sink, it would also reduce spamming of any one craft.


If you mean require more inputted material but output more so as not to have to run so many craft instances, that's an idea.

Sometimes that's represented by separate crafts like the "roast several-meats" craft.

Because for many crafts, unless the actual time it takes to display the messaging on the screen is grossly less than what a given action would take in RL (after time conversion), I don't understand why they incur a debt to the craft timer bank at all.


I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here.

But, I'll take a stab. Yes - the timing between craft stages is indeed not representative of the time actually involved in different steps either in RL or in an IG sense. It is "sped up" for ease of playability and because long-timered crafts wherein one risk's people going DC/reboots in the middle is a bit of a nightmare.

Thus a craft to bake a loaf of bread, for example, might in grand total take only a minute or two to run (IE how long it takes the messages to display on your screen, with variance due to latency). However, the timer applied is longer as that represents how long it would have taken your character to produce the item in question.

In the end, it's a playability issue not to have the craft actually take as long.

Also... we need some fodder crafts with no timer/restrictions for ease of branching sake. This is more or less virgin wilderness, organic resources are plentiful.


At this point, there's relatively little to branch so there's really no need to speed up branching to a great degree. And resources being plentiful isn't the only thing that a timer debt represents. Groceries are plentiful at the local supermarket, but it still takes me time to drive there, select them, pay for them, and then drive them home.

There are however crafts with rather low times in some areas.

(Boil bland-greens for example, has only a 5 minute timer.)

However, not all craftsets (like say ... armorcrafting) are prone to such low-timered activities. One does not indeed want people mass-producing armor in the same one might spam-out steak. The steak will rot as a balance to the ease of it's production, the hauberk will last forever.

However, I'll keep that idea in mind when working on more crafts.

Oh speaking of organic resources, can plants be made a separate item category in the room display like people and furniture? Would help some growing areas.


That might be tricky because people and furniture are all single types of things. (Furniture is all technically a "Container" with the flag "Table") Plants (like trees or bushes) can codewise be several different item types, depending on what they are used for. And some times objects of that item type aren't plants at all.

So that's likely to be a bit of a hassle, but I'll let Nimrod yon code guru give the official answer on that one.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Nimrod » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:25 pm

Frigga wrote:
Oh speaking of organic resources, can plants be made a separate item category in the room display like people and furniture? Would help some growing areas.


That might be tricky because people and furniture are all single types of things. (Furniture is all technically a "Container" with the flag "Table") Plants (like trees or bushes) can codewise be several different item types, depending on what they are used for. And some times objects of that item type aren't plants at all.

So that's likely to be a bit of a hassle, but I'll let Nimrod yon code guru give the official answer on that one.


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Re: Craft Timer

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:25 am

Frigga wrote:
Because for many crafts, unless the actual time it takes to display the messaging on the screen is grossly less than what a given action would take in RL (after time conversion), I don't understand why they incur a debt to the craft timer bank at all.


I'm a bit confused as to what you mean here.

But, I'll take a stab. Yes - the timing between craft stages is indeed not representative of the time actually involved in different steps either in RL or in an IG sense. It is "sped up" for ease of playability and because long-timered crafts wherein one risk's people going DC/reboots in the middle is a bit of a nightmare.

Thus a craft to bake a loaf of bread, for example, might in grand total take only a minute or two to run (IE how long it takes the messages to display on your screen, with variance due to latency). However, the timer applied is longer as that represents how long it would have taken your character to produce the item in question.

In the end, it's a playability issue not to have the craft actually take as long.


I'm more talking about the various scouting/gathering tasks with 30-60 min timers.
I don't think it would take that long to do (for a single plant, as currently represented) once you got to the proper area it is known to grow. And that's before you apply the time conversion.

Essentially, we are being overbilled in some craftsets.

There is also a flaw in your bread example. Most of the time in baking is spent just waiting, or rather, doing other tasks, so the actual time cost on the person is less than the total cook time. The prep time is all that needs to be considered, and that i would presume is covered in the various dough and fire crafts.

Frigga wrote:And resources being plentiful isn't the only thing that a timer debt represents. Groceries are plentiful at the local supermarket, but it still takes me time to drive there, select them, pay for them, and then drive them home.

No craft will start you at home get you the item and return with no additional commands.
Travel time is already accounted for with the movement commands, no need to double dip and count it in the craft timer debt as well.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Nimrod » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:57 am

My question about craft timers was a general query about the time bank. We're not going to debate the merits of every craft timer and how we determined what that time should be. No, it's not perfect, but it's consistent and fair.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby cfelch » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:24 am

Sorry if my criticism hurt your feelings.
Honestly I'm just glad to see crafts again at all.
Time was my only complaint from what I have seen so far.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby teepu » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:30 am

IMO - the bank was neat idea, whoever had it, and far as I have seen it, it is serving well. The bank, the idea and the duration, is fairly suitable to all my needs; the need to twink, :twisted: the occasional bout of RP I might have, time to interact around etc.

Off-topic-
Having played crafters exclusively from the start, I agree that the timers in general indeed are long, especially for lower skills, and some of the armoring and weapon making crafts are BIG drag on morale of aspiring armorers and weaponcrafters.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:03 am

Well. I like the bank in general.

If I'm a giant min-maxing twink, then I still want to interrupt my RP to craft at regular intervals, even with the bank. Branch timers aren't banked, but they are (at least approximately) predictable.

But if I'm just trying to be a reasonably productive employee and still have the freedom to RP long scenes, the bank is great.

***

On the derail, I think most of the timers I've seen that involve actually making things are pretty reasonable. (5 OOC minutes for 'boil bland greens' is 20 IC minutes, for example.) I think the 1 OOC hour forage timers are a bit on the long side. Does it really take 8 IC hours to find a tree in an already-marked grove (4 IC hours) and pick some edible leaves from it (another 4 IC hours)?
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Frigga » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:15 am

I'm more talking about the various scouting/gathering tasks with 30-60 min timers. I don't think it would take that long to do (for a single plant, as currently represented) once you got to the proper area it is known to grow. And that's before you apply the time conversion.


On the derail, I think most of the timers I've seen that involve actually making things are pretty reasonable. (5 OOC minutes for 'boil bland greens' is 20 IC minutes, for example.) I think the 1 OOC hour forage timers are a bit on the long side. Does it really take 8 IC hours to find a tree in an already-marked grove (4 IC hours) and pick some edible leaves from it (another 4 IC hours)?


There will be forthcoming changes to the set-up of some of those foraging crafts that might alleviate some of that concern. Nuts will be the first to be updated. ;)
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby EltanimRas » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:01 pm

Frigga wrote:There will be forthcoming changes to the set-up of some of those foraging crafts that might alleviate some of that concern. Nuts will be the first to be updated.

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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Frigga » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:16 pm

As hinted, the former "scout nuts-tree" and "gather tree-nuts" craft have been updated to indeed be - gather ripe-acorns and gather ripe-hazelnuts.

These now indeed produce nuts that are edible without further processing (the roasting crafts will be updated accordingly) and yes, crafts for gathering walnuts and beechnuts are forthcoming as well. Nuts that you shouldn't be chowing raw though are rather obvious now in the taste string.

So can eat them raw and should eat them raw might be different. While there's currently no coded ill effect Bad Things might happen to those who often ignore that fair warning. ;)

You'll also notice that these new nut gathering crafts produce - a tree stripped of simples upon successful completion of the craft that can be chopped down with a new woodcraft - chop stripped-tree and produce a log. It is now thus of benefit to bring someone(s) who know Woodcraft and Forage to get full advantage of trees/craft timers.

Eventually, other tree food crafts will be updated the same way, in the meantime, enjoy.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Brian » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:29 pm

If you leave the stripped tree will it be productive again next season? Or, in the productive months, will it become laden with it's fruit/nuts again to reflect the fact that a single tree would produce a lot of nuts?
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby cfelch » Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:03 am

A full tree's worth of produce is quite a bit.... a few bushel baskets at least, depending on the size and age of the tree.
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Re: Craft Timer

Postby Justanothacivy » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:33 pm

Time Bank = Good idea

I don't feel the need to interupt and dash off to craft. I believe it allows players to focus their character in the "down time" when perhaps they may be unable to complete certain tasks that require multiple players.

Playability wise its a god sent for casual crafters who may only log in briefly due to RL.

For players with ample time it's great to be able to accomplish several hours worth of crafts and go be busy elsewhere when they want to be.

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