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sharpen wicked-blade

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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:09 pm

so the tl;dr of this all from what I can tell is that players want the weaponcrafting system to be the same as atonement, with a large selection of different aesthetic options. It would be awesome to get variable hilts, hafts, armour types and weapon heads again since the current set of weapons and armour that can be produced feel bland and soulless, with everyone equipped from 1-3 different options. The variable system isn't being used anywhere close to it's full potential, but I feel like that may be intentional, as we're only in alpha right now. Currently the weapon system is bland, but it also works just fine. The recent change that went in to alter the material requirements for different types of weapons was also a huge improvement, and I'm very happy about that.
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
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This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:16 pm

I am all for only have x base weapons templates.
All with relatively uniform modifiers based on material, quality, and skill.
That part is all handled by the code and is more or less irrelevant to the RP.

I am really at a loss as to why some adjectives are being segregated along racial lines.

It's a description for flavor.
But just telling me that it is jagged means nothing without further context. If there is not a reason for it.
Is it jagged from disrepair and spreading rust?
Or is it from having a serrated or flame-tongue edge?
Or is it more that it has a pronged crosspiece to catch other weapons?

I don't see how any of the above examples are innately human or orcish.
I think people forget just how gruesome humans can be, even in civilized areas.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:32 pm

cfelch wrote:I am all for only have x base weapons templates.
All with relatively uniform modifiers based on material, quality, and skill.
That part is all handled by the code and is more or less irrelevant to the RP.

I am really at a loss as to why some adjectives are being segregated along racial lines.

It's a description for flavor.
But just telling me that it is jagged means nothing without further context. If there is not a reason for it.
Is it jagged from disrepair and spreading rust?
Or is it from having a serrated or flame-tongue edge?
Or is it more that it has a pronged crosspiece to catch other weapons?

I don't see how any of the above examples are innately human or orcish.
I think people forget just how gruesome humans can be, even in civilized areas.



It's not even about that. Traditionally orcish weapons have always had a specific craft-set, that made them unique to human weapons.

But you forget, the one, key fact here: This is not a historic fantasy MUD. This is a LOTR MUD, so the idea that humans are gruesome doesn't entirely hold weight here.

Honestly, even if they're not separated between racial lines, as long as we get some goddamned variation, I'd be happy.

Need I remind, in every LOTR movie, and book, humans use straight-edge weapons, almost all the time. Elves used curvy elegant weapons. Orcs used rough looking weapons. Dwarves used axes, and hammers, and occasionally swords.

Taking away the uniqueness of each race, and craft set, makes us just another fantasy MUD. We are Shadows of Isildur, an LOTR themed RPI MUD.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Brian » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:23 pm

Onasaki wrote:
Need I remind, in every LOTR movie, and book, humans use straight-edge weapons, almost all the time. Elves used curvy elegant weapons. Orcs used rough looking weapons. Dwarves used axes, and hammers, and occasionally swords.

Taking away the uniqueness of each race, and craft set, makes us just another fantasy MUD. We are Shadows of Isildur, an LOTR themed RPI MUD.


It's actually only in the movies that this is so, Onasaki. There is no precedent in the books for Elves using curved weapons, that was a choice of the movie team, and one that I don't actually particularly like. There is also no precedent for plate armors, another thing that was used extensively in the movies from the uruk-hai to the soldiers of Gondor.

I know there have been lots of discussions about armors and weapons, but I believe the idea was settled on that this was a MUD based on Tolkien's books, not the films. I know I pushed hard in those discussions for -not- having plate armors. I'm not sure what the final decision was there. People seem to be inconsolable without their full plate armor set in a fantasy setting, and if that's where it goes, I can live with it, even if it's not my preference.

I definitely don't think that elves should be using naginatas (which is what their spears looked like to me in the films more than anything) or odd katana/shamshir hybrid weapons like their infantry swords appear to be. I think that keeping a theme to the items of the races is important, and I believe that is the design intention if you look at the items. It's also important to remember that Men learned basically everything about various crafts from the Elves; anything they make will have its roots in the Elven style, though it would certainly have branched and evolved since.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:01 am

Brian wrote:
Onasaki wrote:
Need I remind, in every LOTR movie, and book, humans use straight-edge weapons, almost all the time. Elves used curvy elegant weapons. Orcs used rough looking weapons. Dwarves used axes, and hammers, and occasionally swords.

Taking away the uniqueness of each race, and craft set, makes us just another fantasy MUD. We are Shadows of Isildur, an LOTR themed RPI MUD.


It's actually only in the movies that this is so, Onasaki. There is no precedent in the books for Elves using curved weapons, that was a choice of the movie team, and one that I don't actually particularly like. There is also no precedent for plate armors, another thing that was used extensively in the movies from the uruk-hai to the soldiers of Gondor.

I know there have been lots of discussions about armors and weapons, but I believe the idea was settled on that this was a MUD based on Tolkien's books, not the films. I know I pushed hard in those discussions for -not- having plate armors. I'm not sure what the final decision was there. People seem to be inconsolable without their full plate armor set in a fantasy setting, and if that's where it goes, I can live with it, even if it's not my preference.

I definitely don't think that elves should be using naginatas (which is what their spears looked like to me in the films more than anything) or odd katana/shamshir hybrid weapons like their infantry swords appear to be. I think that keeping a theme to the items of the races is important, and I believe that is the design intention if you look at the items. It's also important to remember that Men learned basically everything about various crafts from the Elves; anything they make will have its roots in the Elven style, though it would certainly have branched and evolved since.


Very good point. I didn't consider that. But yeah, I think the racial weapons should still be a thing. Even if it's not exactly like it used to be, maybe have one or two orc-only weapons, with one or two human-only weapons. Etc. Whatever they come up with, as long as there's variation.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Rivean » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:05 am

I think variation is a good thing but 'This is the way it was in the movies' or even 'This is the way it was in the books' is NOT a valid IC explanation for why your human/orc smith can't make a straight or jagged-edged blade.

Consequently, I'd suggest that all variation result from realistic IC differences rather than blatant racial divides that are difficult to justify IC - it's one thing to say that most orcs prefer ugly, jagged weapons. It's another thing to say that orc smiths cannot make a straight sword if for whatever reason they wanted to.

So if you want absolute differences in what's available to the two sides, I'd base those differences in logistical limitations - one could envison, for example, that orcish blades have a different hue/texture then the metal on human weapons because they both have access to different sorts of ore.

One could also envision a scenario where there's a difference in the material and construct of the pommel/hilt because Orcish hands are structurally different from human hands in some way as to make a different sort/size of grip more comfortable.

But I vote no on the 'You can't make this because you're an orc.'

ETA: I can also envision a scenario where certain sorts of weapons are 'traditional' and the knowledge of how to make them well is limited to a certain race. So if it's traditional to have Uruk Hai warriors bearing jagged, wavy-edged swords, great - but Orcish smiths should still be perfectly capable of making pretty much any standard sword as well.

Also, it is possible that there are certain techniques (metal folding? The Japanese sword making techniques were legendary once upon a time, and very few sword-makers from outside of Japan knew the techniques) that are closely guarded secrets, but I imagine that that sort of thing would be:

a) More of an elvish thing than a Mannish thing.

b) Would not be something that would fundamentally change the basic dimensions of the weapon itself. Making a better weapon usually involves improving the construction, flexibility, strength, and the ability to retain an edge. Shape and size would remain more or less constant - you can make a bad longsword, or you can make a longsword you can shave with, but their dimensions would still resemble one another.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby tehkory » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:23 pm

Rivean wrote:I think variation is a good thing but 'This is the way it was in the movies' or even 'This is the way it was in the books' is NOT a valid IC explanation for why your human/orc smith can't make a straight or jagged-edged blade.

Consequently, I'd suggest that all variation result from realistic IC differences rather than blatant racial divides that are difficult to justify IC - it's one thing to say that most orcs prefer ugly, jagged weapons. It's another thing to say that orc smiths cannot make a straight sword if for whatever reason they wanted to.

So if you want absolute differences in what's available to the two sides, I'd base those differences in logistical limitations - one could envison, for example, that orcish blades have a different hue/texture then the metal on human weapons because they both have access to different sorts of ore.

One could also envision a scenario where there's a difference in the material and construct of the pommel/hilt because Orcish hands are structurally different from human hands in some way as to make a different sort/size of grip more comfortable.

But I vote no on the 'You can't make this because you're an orc.'

ETA: I can also envision a scenario where certain sorts of weapons are 'traditional' and the knowledge of how to make them well is limited to a certain race. So if it's traditional to have Uruk Hai warriors bearing jagged, wavy-edged swords, great - but Orcish smiths should still be perfectly capable of making pretty much any standard sword as well.

Also, it is possible that there are certain techniques (metal folding? The Japanese sword making techniques were legendary once upon a time, and very few sword-makers from outside of Japan knew the techniques) that are closely guarded secrets, but I imagine that that sort of thing would be:

a) More of an elvish thing than a Mannish thing.

b) Would not be something that would fundamentally change the basic dimensions of the weapon itself. Making a better weapon usually involves improving the construction, flexibility, strength, and the ability to retain an edge. Shape and size would remain more or less constant - you can make a bad longsword, or you can make a longsword you can shave with, but their dimensions would still resemble one another.


Hi. OP here, or I'd stay out since I'm not actually playing and so shouldn't really matter.

Not to respond to your earnest points so simply, but:

Isn't this the equivalent of playing Ancient World RPI, and expecting a Samnite smith to make chainmail just because the Gauls can? Or expecting to be able to produce a katana as a Carthaginian? The falx is the weapon of the Thracians, and the Corinthian helm remains a Greecian design.

Cultures produce weapons. They tend to produce weapon styles. It's not going to help the game's fledgling culture if anybody can produce anything. The only thing that helps is some guy's concept that may not necessarily fit with the actual concept of the men of Dale, or Dwarves, or Goblins, and of course our well-known desire to branch anything and everything ala Ash Ketchum.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Brian » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:25 pm

tehkory wrote:Cultures produce weapons. They tend to produce weapon styles. It's not going to help the game's fledgling culture if anybody can produce anything. The only thing that helps is some guy's concept that may not necessarily fit with the actual concept of the men of Dale, or Dwarves, or Goblins, and of course our well-known desire to branch anything and everything ala Ash Ketchum.


Excellent point here. I know from asking some of the design team that the cultures of Middle-Earth in this game are actually being modeled around actual cultures of history; not copying completely, but definitely having a design aesthetic strongly influenced by them. If you look at our Laketowners/Northmen I think you'll see it in the clothing, shields, weapons, etc. I doubt the orcs have a real world cultural equivalent, however :P
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:28 pm

cfelch wrote:That's why i was suggesting a cultural bias in crafting.

set culture <type>

Something like that would allow you to toggle between the various output forms.


So the crafting would only make the most base form of an item.
Culture would affect the potential nouns used (and maybe some minor bonuses).
Then Artistry would be required if you every intend to make more that purely functional looking items.

Then open up describe to everyone.
Allow it to fully change the sdesc/ldesc of an item (not just add to it).
Then police those who even bother to use it to ensure that descriptions are within guidelines.
Perhaps limit how many items you can have 'under review' at any one time so that staff don't get overworked with QC.

Under these conditions we could more actively manipulate the world around us. Not just get variety in weapons.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:06 pm

cfelch wrote:
cfelch wrote:That's why i was suggesting a cultural bias in crafting.

set culture <type>

Something like that would allow you to toggle between the various output forms.


So the crafting would only make the most base form of an item.
Culture would affect the potential nouns used (and maybe some minor bonuses).
Then Artistry would be required if you every intend to make more that purely functional looking items.

Then open up describe to everyone.
Allow it to fully change the sdesc/ldesc of an item (not just add to it).
Then police those who even bother to use it to ensure that descriptions are within guidelines.
Perhaps limit how many items you can have 'under review' at any one time so that staff don't get overworked with QC.

Under these conditions we could more actively manipulate the world around us. Not just get variety in weapons.


That system would make it require more admin approval then needed, and build up the already large workload that admins have on a daily basis. It's easier just to have certain weapons separated between racial lines.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:07 pm

You're right, it would cause more work for staff.
But maybe it could be handled by the same lessor minions that deal with typo reports?
(P.S. Thanks for all the prompt work, minions!)

And after the big flood on its initial release, i wouldn't expect players to be doing more of these then a 1-2 per RL week at most, and most of that at creation.
I have been finding more typos/bugs then that so far... but then staff used to yell at me for my ability to find stuff as well.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Onasaki » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:04 am

cfelch wrote:You're right, it would cause more work for staff.
But maybe it could be handled by the same lessor minions that deal with typo reports?
(P.S. Thanks for all the prompt work, minions!)

And after the big flood on its initial release, i wouldn't expect players to be doing more of these then a 1-2 per RL week at most, and most of that at creation.
I have been finding more typos/bugs then that so far... but then staff used to yell at me for my ability to find stuff as well.


You're not understanding, or you're refusing to understand specifically, because the system isn't to your particular taste.

It doesn't matter who covers the 'review' be it Nimrod, or one of the builders. It creates more of a workload for the admins, when they have more things that need to be done, then reviewing this dude's sword to make sure it's not encrusted with diamonds and rubies.

The system would not work. At all. The people who fix typos are probably builders who are making other areas, and do typo-fixing in their free time. The bug-fixers are probably the upper brass of the admins. Neither of which have time to read through 40,000 customizations for random weapons. That's why the crafting system is how it is. That's why we have variables, and adjectives.

You're asking for a system that would not work with how this MUD works.

It's FAR easier to add crafts, and split those crafts between racial lines.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Matt » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:29 am

Could just duplicate the existing crafts and plug in new items with orcy sdescs. Or just a couple different options in general.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Justanothacivy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:35 am

Matt wrote:Could just duplicate the existing crafts and plug in new items with orcy sdescs. Or just a couple different options in general.


Yup. No need to modify the item. A mace is a mace. A spiked mace is a mace. A flanged mace is a mace. It'll look nice and retain current balance. :mrgreen:
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:17 pm

Onasaki wrote:It doesn't matter who covers the 'review' be it Nimrod, or one of the builders. It creates more of a workload for the admins, when they have more things that need to be done, then reviewing this dude's sword to make sure it's not encrusted with diamonds and rubies.

Personally, I'd let players restring anything and everything without review, then ban whoever who abuses it.

Maybe we don't have the pbase for that right now, though. :P
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:18 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
Onasaki wrote:It doesn't matter who covers the 'review' be it Nimrod, or one of the builders. It creates more of a workload for the admins, when they have more things that need to be done, then reviewing this dude's sword to make sure it's not encrusted with diamonds and rubies.

Personally, I'd let players restring anything and everything without review, then ban whoever who abuses it.

Maybe we don't have the pbase for that right now, though. :P


That is my preferance as well, but i thought that would meet with even more resistance.

But this is alpha, supposedly these are the trusted few, right?
Well... trust us then.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Brian » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:45 pm

cfelch wrote:
EltanimRas wrote:
Onasaki wrote:It doesn't matter who covers the 'review' be it Nimrod, or one of the builders. It creates more of a workload for the admins, when they have more things that need to be done, then reviewing this dude's sword to make sure it's not encrusted with diamonds and rubies.

Personally, I'd let players restring anything and everything without review, then ban whoever who abuses it.

Maybe we don't have the pbase for that right now, though. :P


That is my preferance as well, but i thought that would meet with even more resistance.

But this is alpha, supposedly these are the trusted few, right?
Well... trust us then.


Sadly, I am very much convinced that players, (including myself!) by and large should not be trusted. We are twinks. Every one of us (especially me). Give us an inch and we'll take every yard we can get out of it, and probably a bit more if nobody is looking. Sure there wouldn't be any coded benefits to people being able to restring their items (thank god!) but it is a rare, rare, Aladdin like diamond in the rough who makes his/her PC a failure, or bad at something!
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:03 pm

Brian wrote:Sadly, I am very much convinced that players, (including myself!) by and large should not be trusted. We are twinks. Every one of us (especially me). Give us an inch and we'll take every yard we can get out of it, and probably a bit more if nobody is looking. Sure there wouldn't be any coded benefits to people being able to restring their items (thank god!) but it is a rare, rare, Aladdin like diamond in the rough who makes his/her PC a failure, or bad at something!


I have to agree with that, but there is also a valid reason for that precept.
PCs are those characters who would play the roles in the movies (by and large).

The stars always seem a little larger than life.
Sure, they might have a rather hum-drum occupation.
But they are an exemplary example of that profession.

They are they ones who get to speak with the important people (staff animated NPCs).
Whose lives are represented as anything but the bottom of the rut of subsistence survival.
They may live in the most menial conditions, but they are rising above... for good or ill.

But we are getting off topic again.
Let the playerbase police itself.
Twinks that we are, we won't let anyone else openly abuse it when we wouldn't be allowed either, on threat of the precious new toy being taken away.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:51 am

cfelch wrote:I have to agree with that, but there is also a valid reason for that precept.
PCs are those characters who would play the roles in the movies (by and large).

The stars always seem a little larger than life.
Sure, they might have a rather hum-drum occupation.
But they are an exemplary example of that profession.

They are they ones who get to speak with the important people (staff animated NPCs).
Whose lives are represented as anything but the bottom of the rut of subsistence survival.
They may live in the most menial conditions, but they are rising above... for good or ill.

Posted in the orc-sphere forums :D
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:56 am

Says the fellow with the highly influential evil-doer avatar.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:20 am

Brian wrote:Sure there wouldn't be any coded benefits to people being able to restring their items (thank god!) but it is a rare, rare, Aladdin like diamond in the rough who makes his/her PC a failure, or bad at something!

You know, it's not happening (because coding), but I think a lot of potential problems might be averted simply by showing the original sdesc of a restrung object on examine and/or evaluate.

That said, the idea unfortunately doesn't mesh terribly well with SoI-style craft branching -- a lot of what your skill and branch grinding gets you is variation in item description, and readily accessible restrings would devalue that.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby cfelch » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:26 pm

EltanimRas wrote:That said, the idea unfortunately doesn't mesh terribly well with SoI-style craft branching -- a lot of what your skill and branch grinding gets you is variation in item description, and readily accessible restrings would devalue that.

I can see how this both is and isn't an issue.
Those who currently have many variations will feel their crafting time/branching opportunities have been wasted.
Not sure how to help with that one... however.
Consolidating many things down into few crafts, allows the coders to instead work on more variety in base products, either to collect or to create, which in the end would explode variation exponentially as people are allowed to restring.

Just for clarification, you would still have to use the variables as they already exits in a given item.
Color(s), material(s), quality all remain (synonyms allowed!?).
But they wouldn't necessarily have to use all the variables if that feature is not prominent.

I would love to see a list of the variables listed in a command as well. If not EVAL, then a command like it.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:59 pm

cfelch wrote:Says the fellow with the highly influential evil-doer avatar.

touche
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Frigga » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:13 pm

But I'm getting off topic with that tiny bit. So back to weapons, weapons should be MORE varient then just damage types, how much damage they do to certain armor. And whether or not they give a deflect bonus.


Sure. And at the same time, they should be more variant in ways that matter and less-so in ways that don't matter that much. I tend to agree with Ironhelix's thoughts on the matter of how to address the issue.

I want those orcs to be diverse. I want them to pick weapons that fit the character on a conceptual level. Not because this honed iron longsword master-craft quality murder-kills things.


You don't need a complete over-haul of combat code to accomplish that. This was one of the cultural aspects written into yon old Angrenost Beta the diversification of weaponry based on cultural aspects. Maybe we need some more of that.
You use X weapon because it's what you were raised using. Some sample backgrounds, encouraging people more in the RPI attitude to get into choices to flesh out a PC, not just min-max.

But to do that, as a collective and as leaders in the community folks need to not push mix-maxing as the norm. You can't support diverse PCs with diverse and unique RP-based weapon usage while every time a new person joins the game they are given the best "murder-kill" weapon and told nothing else will do.

The variable system isn't being used anywhere close to it's full potential, but I feel like that may be intentional, as we're only in alpha right now.


There are items utilizing a great number of variables, but not neccessarily the best ones in the right way.

Very good point. I didn't consider that. But yeah, I think the racial weapons should still be a thing. Even if it's not exactly like it used to be, maybe have one or two orc-only weapons, with one or two human-only weapons. Etc. Whatever they come up with, as long as there's variation.


My idea at present is that there would be a few weapons that are unique to each culture. And yes, as Brian notes, we are working this time around (well, I'm working at least, it's my area of oversight :lol: ) to make IC cultures equivalent to RL cultures and utilize what information we have available from canon. Generally, these specialized cultural items would be your higher tier crafting items that your OMG I'm a Master Crafter would create.

Have an idea about such a thing you imagine for orcs, post it here. I'd love to look into it.

Otherwise, at lower levels, you'd have default items like basic spears, mace, etc, etc. With yes, crafts to create different aspects that could swap in and out. And some of those aspects would be culturally based.

But this is alpha, supposedly these are the trusted few, right?
Well... trust us then.


This isn't like the Angrenost run where we hand picked those who could and do apply to play in this Alpha so ... ;)

Color(s), material(s), quality all remain (synonyms allowed!?).
But they wouldn't necessarily have to use all the variables if that feature is not prominent.


No, they wouldn't, which is kind of the issue you have now on some items, they utilize a great number (say 10) variables to highlight features that aren't that important but ignore things as a result. Weapons need changes, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

To note, a variable must be included in the full description if you want it to be able to augment price on the final object and quality.

I would love to see a list of the variables listed in a command as well. If not EVAL, then a command like it.


Well, some variables you can get an idea of by peeking at crafts wherein you'll see the name of variables.

You can then use tags variable name to get a list of the randomized entries on that list. Non-randomized listings won't show because they might contain super secret stuff. ;)

Example: tags fishtype

Variables for list $fishtype:
+----+-----------------------------+
| ID | Short Description |
+----+-----------------------------+
| 2 | chubb |
| 3 | trout |
| 4 | pike |
| 5 | perch |
+----+-----------------------------+


Enjoy this knowledge.
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Frigga
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Re: sharpen wicked-blade

Postby Hawkwind » Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:45 am

Mmm, trout. I miss it.
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