Moderator: Elder Staff
by Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:50 am
by ThinkTwice » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:00 pm
by radioactivejesus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:05 pm
by Melkor » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:17 pm
radioactivejesus wrote:RPP races should not be allowed to become the unstoppable superheroes that they were in the old SOI. I'm strongly against RPP races getting gear that is superior to that of the lesser races. However, I wouldn't be against them getting higher end gear that suits their race. For example, if a dwarf warrior entered the game, they should enter with an exceptional quality hauberk, gauntlets and leggings of refined iron. It's still craftable by any armourer, so people can match the dwarves equipment given enough time, but it's still very high end.
Similarly for elves, a suit of exceptional quality forest-green dyed oiled leather would be cool, but entering with gear several AC points higher than what can be crafted is a bit unbalancing
by radioactivejesus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:53 pm
by ThinkTwice » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:05 pm
by tehkory » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:07 pm
Concept One: As an RPI, is the imperative first and foremost to create the full diversity of characters and races in a manner true to canon, to the point where some races (or roles) will be grossly overpowered against other players? In that case, should PVP no longer be considered a core concept of that game, on the case of fairness?
Concept Two: Or, as an RPI is still a game at its core, with standardized systems, is the imperative first and foremost to make certain that all playable races and characters are relatively balanced, so that any player has the ability to climb to similar levels of functionality as all other players, regardless of RPP?
What is 'gamebreakingly strong' very much depends on the game, Brian. Whether these special roles/races are 'gamebreakingly strong' depends on the skills and stats. It's not the 'lore' description of Mirkwood Elves that matters, it's their coded power.
for me, not having them portrayed with a certain level of capability would be immersion breaking.
Gimli managed over twenty kills at Helm's Deep against strong Isengard Uruk-Hai. Even if PC dwarves are only half as strong as Gimli and PC uruks somehow twice as strong as canon Uruks, that's still killing 5 before going down (presumably in a series of 1 v 1s, not in a single 5 v 1 epic tankfest). I don't see how to get around that, except to realize that the game isn't merely a mechanical system that we players use to measure e-peens at each other, such that it would be 'unfair' if more effort doesn't equal better results.
Firstly, gear is flavor. We like to add it in with new races. Both dwarves and elves will no doubt have some. High rpphumams will as well, no doubt. That said, it is not designed to be ABSOLUTELY better than what can be crafted IG. I can speak with authority that the elven gear, for example, will be balanced to be worse than specific craftable stuff.
by Grommit » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:53 pm
ThinkTwice wrote:That's one of the major themes of Tolkien's world, though; the races are not equal. The other races are just better than Men at certain things, specifically crafting and fighting. Watching a human warrior defeat an Elf warrior or a Dwarf warrior in single combat should be immersion breaking.
I understand that this is a playability (as people hate being lesser) vs realism (as this is what the canon says) issue, but realism should win out here.
tehkory wrote:Outnumbered over 10-to-1, the Elves, Dwarves, and Men won a solid victory at the Battle of Five Armies. Mostly because of around a hundred great eagles and a shapeshifter. This doesn't mean one elf should kill ten or even five or even four or three goblins. Tolkien wasn't written for the perspective of an enemy. Keep that in mind; we've got two spheres to care for, and players' happiness on either side. It's not just about 'e-peen,' it's about balancing a game so that it's sustainable. It's not about 'getting rid' of Tolkien. How much an Elf or Dwarf feels like Tolkien isn't solely about their coded power. It's not even MOSTLY about their coded power. It's about how people PLAY them.
by tehkory » Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:46 pm
by Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:34 pm
tehkory wrote:The game is on the far right of both 'proper balance of lore' and 'proper balance of game.' Right now we're at(with my minimal understanding of the special races/items/roles) what is 'very unbalanced game' and 'moderately unbalanced lore.' These races just -don't- match Tolkien, however they're played, and they don't match a good game. Maybe they will at some point in the future.
by WorkerDrone » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:45 pm
Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!
by Melkor » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:06 pm
tehkory wrote:People who haven't played a PC in YEARS also have difficulty judging this, which is why I've not really ever liked the 'Admins are banned from playing the game' policy SoI took up. If that's been removed sometime and somewhere, though, awesome. People that haven't often played as a 0RPP PC and built up from the bottom recently also have difficult judging the 'coded balance' of the game.
by tehkory » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:10 pm
Brian wrote:tehkory wrote:The game is on the far right of both 'proper balance of lore' and 'proper balance of game.' Right now we're at(with my minimal understanding of the special races/items/roles) what is 'very unbalanced game' and 'moderately unbalanced lore.' These races just -don't- match Tolkien, however they're played, and they don't match a good game. Maybe they will at some point in the future.
I'm curious to know what has happened or what's going on that the game seems "very unbalanced" to you and the lore seems "moderately unbalanced"? What is out of balance in the game for those of us who aren't aware? Could you also expand upon what you believe the proper balance of the lore is in your view? Without these points of reference it's difficult to put your statements into context.
by WorkerDrone » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:13 pm
tehkory wrote:And a fair amount of it might be changed with what Icarus/Grommit are doing.
Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!
by Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:28 pm
tehkory wrote:I think I posted enough of a reference to current IC events, sorry. Any more and I'd expect Nimrod to ask me to remove it/ Picking the exact thing that's out-of-balance? Could be boosts, or it could be armor, or it could be skills(it's one of the former, from what I could guess). Could be one and all.
...but it's impossible to be sure without Staff posting EXACTLY what they're willing to give for RPP, races, roles, and armor. And a fair amount of it might be changed with what Icarus/Grommit are doing.
by Grommit » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:06 pm
by tehkory » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:20 pm
And I know enough about the code to make it actually 5-10% in outcome, not in some naive variable that unfortunately has a much greater sway.
Requiring the elf-gear to be identical to a human-made version with no small boosts at all would be too far on the non-lore side of things for my tastes.
Brian wrote:Ok, if you can't get into any more detail on specifics, what do you think the balance should be, especially as to how you think the lore elements like dwarves and elves and dunedain should fit into what we have here? It's all just hypotheticals after all but I'm curious to see where the pbase stands.
by WorkerDrone » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:28 pm
Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!
by krelm » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:44 pm
by radioactivejesus » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:55 pm
Grommit wrote: Icarus and I are working on tools to make it so that this won't happen.
by Grommit » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:08 pm
by shezzarine » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:10 pm
by Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:12 pm
radioactivejesus wrote:Grommit wrote: Icarus and I are working on tools to make it so that this won't happen.
I'm really glad to hear this. Seeing impossibly overpowered equipment like this leads to a lot of anger and feelings of staff favouritism, and really has the potential to ruin the game for some people. I know a lot of us are already cynical about such matters due to the massive coded advantages some high RPP characters saw during the old SOI, but I believe staff when they say this was just a massive screwup, rather than intentionally turning someone into a god, and that it's not going to happen again with Grommit's new changes.
by Brian » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:17 pm
by WorkerDrone » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:25 pm
krelm wrote:Sure, Tolkien says that elves are superwtfbbqsauceawesome and one of them can kill a bajillion orcs by himself, but sit back and ask yourself-- what if you were playing that orc? Why would you even log in again if some elf rocked into a room and one-shot you?
Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!