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[Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:49 am

BashSkull52 wrote:
Songweaver wrote:The base damage of secondary weapons is equal to the base damage of primary weapons. Two secondary weapons are still unbalanced vs low armored opponents. IMO, dual-wielding should be used for dual daggers, or one medium-sized weapon and a small weapon (dagger).



Solution: Dont wear light armor as a melee focused player and you have nothing to worry about.



That's not really an option for every PC, or a solution. :p
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:38 am

I'm glad you thought of that SW. Damages for 'shortswords' and any other off hand weapons can't be equal to a primary med weapon.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:43 am

Matt wrote:I'm glad you thought of that SW. Damages for 'shortswords' and any other off hand weapons can't be equal to a primary med weapon.


Agreed. Off-hand/secondary weapons should be set to small-blade, for sure.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:53 am

Actually that's probably the most unbalanced thing I can think of currently. You can have a PC with bottom avg str running around d-wielding primary damage in either hand. We aren't all Drizzt.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:46 am

I don't think that the off-hand weapon should automatically deal less damage.
Or that it should be restricted to just daggers.

I will however agree that most people are weaker in their off hand, unless truly ambidextrous.
Speaking of, do we even have handedness?

The main issue with dual wielding should be stamina, and defenses.
Yes, they will likely wreck some havoc while they can move.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:04 am

No, the damage output is a massive advantage. If you want to d-wield medium weapons you need to get peak str. That's the code. But someone made items that were 'small' weapons but deal the same damage as a sword. That's just the whole 'standardization' thing. Because I don't think there's a bludgeon equivalent. I'm pretty sure it's only shortswords.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:29 am

Yeah we should def fix that.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:42 am

I will agree that it is an advantage... that is the whole point behind throwing away a shield in favor of another weapon.

As for peak strength...(some humans can lift half a ton) I think that is just people trying to find a way to limit dual wielding (which is desperately needed, but more for practicality reasons).

I mean, lets take a look at what is arguably the most oft-used 'short' sword for dual wielding, historically.

The wakizashi has a blade between 30 and 60 cm (12 and 24 in).
Little more than a dagger really, though the tanto is shorter still.
The japanese are not known for being hulking brutes either.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:54 am

I'm all about dual-wielding. I posted a dual-wielding build that is very effective in this thread.

But, I also am the one who balanced the numbers and fixed the weapons/armor early on in the game, and when I balanced them, I didn't balance them for dual-wielded medium-sized weapons (because I was under the impression that only trolls/etc would be able to do that). And because of all of that, I know that they apply way too much DPS vs low AC targets. Dual medium-sized weapons are capable of nuking the DPS of dual-wielded daggers, two-handed weapons, and wargs.

Dual wielding one medium-sized weapon and one small-blade is balanced.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Melkor » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:28 am

If it seems like too much, then just lower the amount of damage that short swords deal out, no need to reclassify them all as small-blades.

Someone then wanting to use a long blade and a short sword would have to train up three skills just to do so (dual-wield, long-blade, and small-blade). That's a little overboard.

Also, it isn't just short swords, there are polearm and bludgeon equivalents too. Must we now make new skills? Small-bludgeon and Small-polearm?
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:52 am

The easiest fix is most definitely to disallow dual-wielding medium-weapons all-together - at the very least, for anyone who doesn't meet the strength requirement (though I still don't think that Peak Strength humans/orcs should be dual-wielding longswords/etc; it just isn't balanced or realistic).

Weapon damage is standardized, so it's not as simple as just re-adjusting shortswords to deal less damage.

Basically, on the back-end, you set 1) weapon-type and 2) quality, and the standardization system sets all of the damage, weight, etc numbers. Crafting components used further affect those numbers. The standardization method was something that we added for Atonement to reduce the possibility of builder errors, so that it would be impossible to create unbalanced weapons and armor; we did this because of how big of a problem that had become on old SOI.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:16 pm

I'm thinking it should be more a peak dex thing then peak strength.
Dual weapons required hand-eye coordination, or manual dexterity.

Also whatever happened to combat styles separate for skills?
If you require some special style, or RPP skill to effectively dual wield medium weapons, it would prevent people from picking it up just for the easy twink kills.

It should outperform the DPS of any other style.
The issue is preventing it from becoming the goto build.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:42 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_wield

The use of two weapons simultaneously confers no notable advantage to the user as compared to more conventional means such as using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon and a shield. The use of a companion weapon is sometimes employed in European martial arts and fencing.

...

It should be noted that all the above-mentioned examples, involve either one long and one short weapon, or two short weapons.


I know that it feels awesome to dual-wield big weapons, but it's just not practical (realistically) or balanced (damage-wise). It's unwieldy and slow, which is not properly represented in our codebase. Dual-wielding has only ever been effective with a regular weapon + companion weapon (small blade), or two small weapons. There are no references of it in Tolkien, and history has proven again and again that it is not an advantageous style of fighting.

There's also no reason to favor that style's DPS over all others.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:09 pm

Agreed, ideally this would not be possible, to wield two "medium" or "heavy" weapons.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:15 pm

If we're already talking about combat balance... maybe discuss how different stats affect combat? What's unbalanced there?
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:25 pm

We're learning quite a bit of that from the backend fine-tooth-comb analysis that we are doing, but happy to hear what you guys think are overpowered stats and general combat such and such.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby krelm » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:31 pm

Matt wrote:If we're already talking about combat balance... maybe discuss how different stats affect combat? What's unbalanced there?


I don't really think it gets unbalanced stat-wise, until you get over peak levels, like SW mentioned-- and the easiest thing to do there is just make sure people don't get over 18. I know chargen still, occasionally, decides to give people 20+ in one stat, so that should probably be fixed. And also to reiterate something SW mentioned earlier, I think that the 3-4 point randomness should be taken out. As it stands, some PCs roll IG with 89 overall stat points, and some roll in with up to 93.

Also, I've been saying it since the game opened, presence should be removed entirely, or set at a static 10.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:33 pm

I think that Dex is weak, overall; it'd definitely be more useful of a stat if you received a damage bonus to archery similar to what strength attributes to melee damage. It could also be improved by adding an inherent bonus to the speed of aim, reload, and hide, similar to some of the speed bonuses that agility receives.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Songweaver » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:35 pm

krelm wrote:
Matt wrote:If we're already talking about combat balance... maybe discuss how different stats affect combat? What's unbalanced there?


I don't really think it gets unbalanced stat-wise, until you get over peak levels, like SW mentioned-- and the easiest thing to do there is just make sure people don't get over 18. I know chargen still, occasionally, decides to give people 20+ in one stat, so that should probably be fixed. And also to reiterate something SW mentioned earlier, I think that the 3-4 point randomness should be taken out. As it stands, some PCs roll IG with 89 overall stat points, and some roll in with up to 93.

Also, I've been saying it since the game opened, presence should be removed entirely, or set at a static 10.


Also, agreed with everything here.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Melkor » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:27 pm

I guess this is kind of a tangent from the thread, but given that we're talking about dual-wielding:

I would also suggest that the dual-wield skill be split back into the way it used to be (during Atonement Alpha). Dual-wield and a shield skill, perhaps Shield-Use.

Dual-wield is simply too powerful of a skill and it's two uses are fairly unrelated. It's the best offense and the best defense rolled into one.

This would also allow for the prerequisite of sole-wield to be removed from dual-wield. It is odd to have to pick sole-wield and dual-wield just to be able to use two daggers, which being small-blade are supposed to be given for free. So two skill picks just to use a given weapon skill.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby krelm » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:33 pm

What Melkor said, though I don't think that separating the skills again would be all that easy.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Icarus » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:50 pm

Let's focus on reviews of current combat systems.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby AdamBlue » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:51 pm

In my opinion, a swordsman wielding a longsword and a shortsword with high dual-wield should be very good at dealing damage. There shouldn't be nerfs to the weapons whatsoever.

Styles are very hard to raise as it is, as weapons usually take prescedence when you're training. So raising dual-wield enough to be really strong takes a while. You'll start out flailing and flailing, then you'll be decent at it, and eventually you'll end up being a glass cannon. Which I think dual-wielding weapons should make you, a glass cannon. In that same vein, I think shields should be a bit stronger. The weapons as they are currently, when they're very very well made, can give as much deflect as shields can. Do not nerf the swords. Buff the shields, instead, make them stronger so that someone who is good with a shield can set defensive and stand as a wall against all foes.

Also, make 'feint' have a better use. I believe it sacrifices the first hit in two to make the second hit stronger/a crit?

Bash is -very- good.

There should be another skill for sole-wield other than 'ward'. Like, maybe something kind of like what 'deathblow' was. Sacrificing defenses to raise offense for a single high-powered blow. Maybe like, -20 to deflect, +30 to sole-wield for one hit. And it would be fair, as you know how bloody long some big weapons take to swing.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:52 pm

That is part of the current combat system is it not? It's a decent point I think.
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Re: [Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

Postby krelm » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:30 pm

Also, make 'feint' have a better use. I believe it sacrifices the first hit in two to make the second hit stronger/a crit?

Bash is -very- good


Feint, actually, gives your first attack a -1, and your second a +1, just to hit, if I remember the code correctly.

And bash, while good, is also incredibly dangerous to use, even at high levels. If you botch your roll and fall over, that's all she wrote. Especially if you're a tank.

Overall, I'd say that the feint skill is better. You can't fail it, you can't fall over, and you'll be rocking out damage regardless.
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