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Embarrassing

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Embarrassing

Postby Nimrod » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:39 pm

So some orcs seem to think it's their responsibility to knock the stuffing out of newbies every chance they get for no other reason than they can. I'm not saying this is the bulk of orcs, but one bad apple spoils the barrel.

This game is not a place for you to play your games of domination over other players just because you've been playing longer and have better stats. If I see this continuing, I will personally roll out a troll and smash your character dead.

Just because someone is not giving you the respect you think you deserve does not give you the right to draw sharps and beat the other person down to one star, or kill them. Spatting is an old orcish tradition that some seem to have forgotten the rules of. It's simple. The first person to draw a weapon or resort to coded combat is the loser. It's that simple.

Just because you CAN, does not mean you SHOULD.

Self regulate, people. Some new players are being driven off because of a few bad apples.

I feel like a damned gobshite having to post this, because I know there's a lot of you working hard and doing a great job. To you good folk that play by the rules, I apologize. To those few that are screwing it up for everyone else, shape up or ship out.

I'll be watching.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby AdamBlue » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:57 pm

I don't play anymore because of various reasons, but from my time during the orcs, there are a few people that deserve to get their asses absolutely snarfagling thrashed when they act like shits.
Literally nothing you say or do, even threatening 'troll smashing' will stop asshats from getting curbstomped if they act like asshats.

And Bosses and Underbosses have as much right as they want to assert control over their undersorts as much as they want, and there are many situations where 'orc mc-orcdude' who is a better combat character can act smug and shitty but a recruit acts like an ass to 'crafty mccraftorc' who is a corporal. By principle alone, if the corporal wants the recruit's ass beat, then the recruit should be getting his ass beat by three other recruits to win the favor of the corporal. If they abuse it, then the recruits will naturally respond by NOT doing as they ask, and it doesn't need to be moderated on an OOC level. In fact, all of this does not need to be moderated on an OOC level.

However.
If you're spatting with someone, don't be a huge baby. Pull out the snarfagling thesaurus. Pull out the orcish handbook of insults. The whole point of spatting is to get the other person mad or for both of you devolve into camaraderie and laugh it off together.

The whole point of the orc spehre ATM is that it isn't a bunch of competing tribes that hate eachother, it's a single goddamn tribe of orcs fighting humans and spiders and other wacky shit, so they should be able to not act like compete cunts to eachother 24/7.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Dirgs » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:21 am

Nimrod wrote: Spatting is an old orcish tradition that some seem to have forgotten the rules of. It's simple. The first person to draw a weapon or resort to coded combat is the loser. It's that simple


This. People keep forgetting the importance of spatting, and the cultural background behind it. If an orc beats other orc over an insult, he is showing weakness - because he allows mere words to hurt him. This should include higher ranking officers, or actually matter double in their case. A well-respected orcish leader would first accept the spat challenge, and yes, after showing his dominance in a spat, he might beat the living crap out of the offender to set en example, but only after showing his dominance in the spat... because drawing immediately makes him look like a complete wuss, and how could he then be a respected leader?
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Patty » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:24 am

Nimrod wrote:Just because someone is not giving you the respect you think you deserve does not give you the right to draw sharps and beat the other person down to one star, or kill them. Spatting is an old orcish tradition that some seem to have forgotten the rules of. It's simple. The first person to draw a weapon or resort to coded combat is the loser. It's that simple.


Maybe we've forgotten it because we've never seen it actually practiced in game or done by staff. Its a tradition, is it a law? I rolled in around September and I saw nearly every pc in a position of power beat or torture multiple new characters and even new players to the game.

I actually recruited a friend to play and he ended up naked in the pit for shooting his mouth off. Guess what, he shouldn't have talked trash to an underboss. Let's just get rid of ranks. What is the point of a position of authority if there is nothing you can do with it? "Hey Grunt, do this!" "No." "You better or I'll spat at you! I know you saw on the forum where I can't hit you "

Also, if beating a player to one star is unacceptable why would making an npc kill another player be any better? If you want to punish people for an ooc reason, do it in an ooc way. If you want to control how the players act, make it an npc led clan again. If not, let us do as you suggested an self regulate.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Songweaver » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:59 am

People resort to inter-clan PKing most often when there is a lack of other, more interesting activities to engage in.

That said, I mostly agree with Patty here. I don't know what spurred this thread, but it seems like the right response should be OOC warnings/OOC punishments, rather than threat of death by an IC force. The idea of IC plots/actions from the staff in retaliation to OOC issues makes me very, very uncomfortable.

I also don't think that a no-killing rule for orcs should be black & white. Someone with authority in-game (a clan leader, or a clan tribunal) should distinguish when beating up a recruit was (or was not) reasonable. This sort of set-up would also create a new role/roles within orcish society that might stir up some roleplay.

There's not a good way to tell when a character is a true newbie. If the orc sphere's too brutal for a newbie to appreciate (of course, you'd hope that common sense would suggest that playing an orc might be brutal), then shouldn't we discourage new players from rolling orcs for their first character? Or at least warn them in character generation that rolling an orc means a tough, violent life?

The more we regulate PKing (particularly in the orc sphere) in an OOC way, the more we are sliding away from what makes an RPI an RPI.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Icarus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:58 am

I think the issue is that, due to how our code works, repeatedly taking people down to low stars increased the risk of fractures significantly. You fracture someone, they are pretty out of things for awhile, and from an OOC perspective that's just kind of lame.

Now that said, how to deal with a newbie orc that doesn't know the pecking order, and two characters who, ICly, would not back down?
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Patty » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:02 am

I took this person in question to 3 stars and initiated the stop to combat. If they continue to provoke my char, what am I supposed to do? I might also add I received echoes encouraging me to go further with it once I took them to 1 star. Talk about confusing.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:46 am

staff should also keep in mind that Zabalk, the sawtooth orc in the main hall is Sergeant-rank, and can always be used to mediate conflicts amongst newer players, or encourage "spatting". He's one of the warbands main authority figures
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Justanothacivy » Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:52 pm

Was this aimed at me?
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:21 pm

Justanothacivy wrote:Was this aimed at me?

it wasn't.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby ThinkTwice » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:20 am

I'm not an orc player, but am very confused by this.

I thought one of the entire premises of playing an orc was that if you talked shit, you might get hit? Isn't that like ... their whole schpeel? Lacking in morality and ethics, encouraged by barbarism, ambition, the strong rule and stuff?

I'd always kind of assumed this was one of the things that made the orc sphere attractive. Utterby has/had a character in-game whose sole purpose is just to interpret its own laws, they're so complicated. I'd always assumed the orcs just kind of did it with their fists.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Matt » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:32 pm

There's a difference though in responding in rp violence and remove crossbow aim crossbow fire. If it comes to code it does but from my experience people are much quicker to just be shitty.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Onasaki » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:33 pm

My only problem with this, being as I'm one of the people who has beaten down a newbie or two for talking back to me.

Is that, people come into the game, and EXPECT to be KING. They shout at you, cry, piss you off, and try to spam-kill you, because they want your shit, because they want to be the king of the mountain when they're shitty little newblood slaves who have no right talking back to anyone but another newblood slave.

When people get like that, and don't stop no matter how much to tell them that's not how things are. You beat them down, because that's the only way to prove your strength to a newblood who thinks he's top shit.

That's the problem with the Orc Sphere. People come in and expect to be handed everything on a silver platter, and don't care about the people who have been there for IC years, who have put blood, sweat, tears, more blood, and a limb or two into getting their position.

It's also the problem I have with RPP roles, because while it's a good reward for a long-lived player, it completely throws off the IC hierarchy, and destroys RP.

Pepole should NEVER come ANYWHERE like Vadok Mal and expect to be top dog in less then a day. That's the ONE thing I hate THE MOST about some newbies, and WHY it leads to kicking the shit out of them, in the first place.

It doesn't matter if it's spatting or not, because 9 times out of 10, it's not spatting. It's a newbie trying to be the badass they think they deserve to be, without having any consideration for the way things work.

That is literally the problem, and why it leads to this sort of thing. We also, like someone said, have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do, 90% of the time. Except attack humans, who spam-kill with no regard for RP. With the other 10%, either being weekly Bog runs, or hunting humans, except when those humans are lead by an OP elf who's armor is so insane that not even our best combatant could bypass in coded combat, and died because of it.

So you want us to NOT beat the snarfagle out of newbies who have no regard for any sense of authority? Do something about it.Give us caravans to raid, give us plots that don't even have deal with Utterby. Give us ORC THINGS to DO.

/Endrant

Seriously, we as orcs get the shit end of everything, almost all the time. And I might be yelled at for speaking up, but that's the truth.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Knight26 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:09 pm

Difficult subject but it has always been the case in the Ork sphere.

I used to beat snagas if they didn't listen or if they played up on me, but not until near death - just enough so they'd know who's boss.

It's so difficult to build hierarchy in the Orkish sphere because it's so easy to mutiny the current leader and kill them off. Every Ork walks into the sphere with a background of wanting to be the biggest and the best, and that's a flaw with the race is that terrible ego they come with. Part of their nature I guess.

There can't be a slight difference between the Warlord and his Sergeant or between the Sergeant and his snaga. There needs to be a SUBSTANTIAL difference - equipment or race, skills or notorious heroism. If the difference is too small or the reputation is too little, everyone will scrap for top-dog.

:P

Sometimes I wanna come back to this game and play my old 5RPP Uruk-Hai.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Knight26 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:12 pm

And for those who say “you need to be a leader, you need to lead them and they will respect you”. That’s bullcrap, haha. All everyone wanna does is take your spot.

:lol:
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby MrT2G » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:34 pm

IMO part of the problem is a sphere whose structure and hierarchy is based around code-based skills and gifted privileges. Unfortunately, leadership ability isn't a prerequisite for coded superiority in the form of higher skills or better equipment. However, these things are what determines who are the leaders.

It requires strong leaders to set examples of how to wield power once they have it, particular in system that revolves around individuals. This how the organization's culture is established and propagates itself to future and lower members.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby WorkerDrone » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:46 pm

Unless they're truly a newbie with no clue how things work around here, there's not a thing wrong going on here. Sure, be a bit more lenient/even-handed when it comes to their treatment. They don't know better. But...

Jesus, I've seen less whining about things of actual consequence, but intentionally starting any sort of conflict, or even unintentionally, in a sphere starved of it?

I would say "get a grip", but...no, yeah, get a grip.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby tehkory » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:45 pm

MrT2G wrote:IMO part of the problem is a sphere whose structure and hierarchy is based around code-based skills and gifted privileges. Unfortunately, leadership ability isn't a prerequisite for coded superiority in the form of higher skills or better equipment. However, these things are what determines who are the leaders.

It requires strong leaders to set examples of how to wield power once they have it, particular in system that revolves around individuals. This how the organization's culture is established and propagates itself to future and lower members.

Having corrupt assholes whose only good skill is the ability to wield a sword isn't necessarily a problem; it only rarely is, in fact. It's a conflict, and that's what drives RPIs. I've played a few myself(however poorly), from time to time, and in my experience, even -good- leaders need to rely on the threat of and direct use of force to remain alive, in control, and respected, from time to time. This is something even fundamentally good men have had to rely on(in dark games/moments), much less unrepentant, irredeemable entities like orcs.

A culture of draw-first-you-loose/spatting rules helps, but if newbies are coming in, throwing their weight around, and getting smashed down, then maybe a little warning about what orcs are like is necessary when someone apps in as one.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby cfelch » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:40 pm

The problem as I hear is, is the speed of escalation.
Conflict is all well and good, but make it last.
If it is over in an hour, who really gets to enjoy it?
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Siradril » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:50 am

I have just noticed this thread on the forums. I would say that I am the person responsible or perhaps one of the people responsible for it. I was a completely new orc player, didn't have the slightest clue how to write a description for one let alone know their roleplay, hierachy or anything along those lines.

I was given a general idea of what the roleplay will be like, what to expect. I cannot tell about others but I can tell you about what I have personally experienced. Which I will not list down one by one.

Starters:

*My character was no king, had no intention of becoming a king ICly or OOCly. Not in his background either. Who in their right mind would expect to storm in and takeover a sphere within day? Your assumption is heavily wrong.

*My character was arrogant. He always spoke back, but never acted like Chuck Norris. He did roleplay his wounds.

A brief idea of what I experienced:
5 times dropped out of consciousness in 3 RL days. Had more than 1 day 10 hours or so playing time during that.

Spatting? I didn't know such a thing existed. Although that is apparently what my character did. He got beaten for talking trash and then after being beaten down he kept he talking back.

Now I realize it's awfully stupid to roll an Orc who will keep talking back even after being beaten down. However to me what appears to be a bigger issue is that all of you players losing the grasp of what we are doing here. Which is playing a game. A game where not only you play at but also others.

When I first got beaten down I was excited, it made sense. However when each orc save for 3 I have roleplayed with opted to beat my character down it took its toll. Now this is what I call shitty roleplay.

From what I've read and seen the reason to beat another orc is to establish your domination over them. Where comes the biggest issue honestly. My character DID submit. He followed orders and there isn't a single person who beat me there besides one guy who had no rank, that can claim he did not follow orders.

So that is the first thing which annoyed me and gave me a bad taste. Because people weren't beating you down for domination. They were beating me down just to get their daily ego fix or whatever it was. And while doing this they are disregarding the fact that I am also not a NPC.

When someone shows up or you show up and roleplay with someone who quickly codedly beats you down to 1 star and knocks you out. Then takes off after 30 minutes, where as you remain there for 10 more hours. It is quite irritating.

Moving on. I have not seen a SINGLE player in the sphere who had beaten my character, try to go into an emote combat. We still have the roll function. I know my character is 1 day old so obviously I will not just pull a superman out of him and emote beating you down since well lets face it. If you are an underboss you ought to be the way waaaay waaaaay better fighter.

All in all I had the worst possible taste left in my mouth from my experience in the Orc Sphere. I also saw some good roleplayers. Mind you the Warlord did not hit my character even once. The problem here is that you are all losing grasp of the fact that this is a game we all play to have fun. My character's fault of creation was talking back and being "proud"? Which from what I was told, orcs were expected to be mean, talking shit bunch of creatures.

Edit: I've just wanted to say that, at one point this sphere is banded against Humans. And what I've continously read was that new orcs were meant to be beaten down until they train and get better. Could someone tell me how I am expected to train in combat or remotely get better if I am continously beaten down to 1 star?

After my first day I realized that my character could've easily been killed. On my second day after the third beating down out of consciousness I was just hoping they'd kill me because beating my character down to 1 star with 3 fractured bones was hardly better than not dying. On my third day after the fifth beating which happened in a spar where I typed stop and the person attacking me did not do so. I typed it again. They did not stop, I fled and came back and snapped at them simply losing it. They simply tell me there is no rule to stop sparring. (During that spar the person fighting opted to use actual weapons. They took me down to 4 stars after a single blow but for the sake of training I opted to keep going. After a long way down at 3 stars was when I asked to stop.)

Also about my character's background, he was not a purchased slave. He joined the warband willingly. (Should answer some more questions)

Edit 2: Changed the bit about Spatting to better explain what he did.
Last edited by Siradril on Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Knight26 » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:01 am

Siradril wrote:I have just noticed this thread on the forums. I would say that I am the person responsible or perhaps one of the people responsible for it. I was a completely new orc player, didn't have the slightest clue how to write a description for one let alone know their roleplay, hierachy or anything along those lines.

I was given a general idea of what the roleplay will be like, what to expect. I cannot tell about others but I can tell you about what I have personally experienced. Which I will not list down one by one.

Starters:

*My character was no king, had no intention of becoming a king ICly or OOCly. Not in his background either. Who in their right mind would expect to storm in and takeover a sphere within day? Your assumption is heavily wrong.

*My character was arrogant. He always spoke back, but never acted like Chuck Norris. He did roleplay his wounds.

A brief idea of what I experienced:
5 times dropped out of consciousness in 3 RL days. Had more than 1 day 10 hours or so playing time during that.

Spatting? I didn't know such a thing existed. Although that is apparently what my character did. He got beaten and then he talked back.

Now I realize it's awfully stupid to roll an Orc who will keep talking back even after being beaten down. However to me what appears to be a bigger issue is that all of you players losing the grasp of what we are doing here. Which is playing a game. A game where not only you play at but also others.

When I first got beaten down I was excited, it made sense. However when each orc save for 3 I have roleplayed with opted to beat my character down it took its toll. Now this is what I call shitty roleplay.

From what I've read and seen the reason to beat another orc is to establish your domination over them. Where comes the biggest issue honestly. My character DID submit. He followed orders and there isn't a single person who beat me there besides one guy who had no rank, that can claim he did not follow orders.

So that is the first thing which annoyed me and gave me a bad taste. Because people weren't beating you down for domination. They were beating me down just to get their daily ego fix or whatever it was. And while doing this they are disregarding the fact that I am also not a NPC.

When someone shows up or you show up and roleplay with someone who quickly codedly beats you down to 1 star and knocks you out. Then takes off after 30 minutes, where as you remain there for 10 more hours. It is quite irritating.

Moving on. I have not seen a SINGLE player in the sphere who had beaten my character, try to go into an emote combat. We still have the roll function. I know my character is 1 day old so obviously I will not just pull a superman out of him and emote beating you down since well lets face it. If you are an underboss you ought to be the way waaaay waaaaay better fighter.

All in all I had the worst possible taste left in my mouth from my experience in the Orc Sphere. I also saw some good roleplayers. Mind you the Warlord did not hit my character even once. The problem here is that you are all losing grasp of the fact that this is a game we all play to have fun. My character's fault of creation was talking back and being "proud"? Which from what I was told, orcs were expected to be mean, talking shit bunch of creatures.

Edit: I've just wanted to say that, at one point this sphere is banded against Humans. And what I've continously read was that new orcs were meant to be beaten down until they train and get better. Could someone tell me how I am expected to train in combat or remotely get better if I am continously beaten down to 1 star?



Whoever you are you're not new to SoI so stop pretending.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Siradril » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:04 am

Knight26 wrote:
Whoever you are you're not new to SoI so stop pretending.


I am not new to SoI, where do I claim to be new to SoI? I claimed I never roleplayed an Orc. Which I have not. It was my first Orc. Furthermore whether I had an Orc before or not would change little. The argument(s) still stand(s).
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Brian » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:23 am

Knight26 wrote:
Whoever you are you're not new to SoI so stop pretending.


Why would you cherry pick the one thing out of several legitimate concerns that sets you off instead of addressing the many points brought up by Siradil, aside from the fact that the one thing you picked out to throw back isn't relevant as you can play SoI without playing an orc and still have no idea what to expect when you do?

It sounds like a new player (not to the game but to being an orc) came into a situation trying to do their best and more or less had their character made almost unplayable due to IC wounds. If this was my newbie experience to being an orc it's a good bet that I wouldn't be thrilled about it. There's a few questions that come up for me from it.

First, is Siradil's experience standard for what a newbie orc should expect? Siradil said frankly that his character was insubordinate at times, but also that ultimately when greater strength was shown the character submitted. That sounds about right to me but it'd be good to know for new players if any insubordination is going to likely result in being beaten to the point where your character is going to take many RL hours or days to recover. God help you if you were beaten to one star with fractures and couldn't sync up with a healer.

Second, is the orc sphere only viable for play by people who are OK with the kind of things outlined by Siradil? Certainly it's a legitimate option but I can see it severely restricting retention of people trying out orcs for their first time and ultimately keeping orc player numbers lower.
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby Frigga » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:58 am

And in short, that's the concern.

People want us to start advertising and reaching out to new players, but the rather blasé attitude about retaining them is a bit of a concern. Advertising can get people here, but the community will determine if stay or go.

Orc RP has always been more harsh than human RP, but there seemed to be in the past more desire to not take that harshness immediately to code. Conflict =/= code.

And ultimately, it's difficult for other players let alone staff to determine the motivation behind someone's actions, but deciding why newbies act like ... newbies brings no resolve.

Playing an Orc was always a 0 RPP new player option, but with heavy suggestions about warnings and not being for new players, it feels like this is no longer desired.

Is it?
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Re: Embarrassing

Postby bjg2k1us » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:02 am

So, beating down insolent new orcs because they attack you, actually disobey orders, steal, or otherwise DO things that are not tolerated... yeah, that makes total sense. But some of you are admitting to beating down new orcs 'because they talk back', and it sounds like that's missing the entire damn point of spatting. They came in, said something snarky or disrespectful, and instead of one-upping them and putting them in their place by coming up with something better, you just whip out a weapon and start swinging? It seems like there's a huge disconnect between what the documentation and expectation is, and what's actually happening. My (extremely) brief orc didn't have much of a rebellious streak, but I know if I'd been codedly attacked for simply making a snarky remark, I'd be pretty annoyed OOCly, given my understanding of the sphere rolling in.

That said, PCs that 'never know when to shut up' are far, far more annoying to have to deal with as a leader than anyone who plays them thinks; so if you are playing someone too stupid to know that he's going to be beaten within an inch of his life for doing something, and you keep doing it despite knowing full well what will happen to him, don't complain about the consequences. I mean, yeah, everyone wants to be Wolverine or Deadpool and keep on snarking even when they're missing an arm and most of their face, but feel free to mix in just a little of that most basic of all biological instincts: self-preservation.

I mean, Tolkien's orcs are generally portrayed as COWARDS at heart, right? They generally need someone bigger and stronger whipping them on if they're going to pose much of a threat to the rest of the world, so why are so many of them 'eh talks shit and doesn't afraid of anything' types? Maybe the documentation should reflect that, and the expectations adjusted accordingly. Maybe new orcs that don't have that orcish instinct are just defective and need to be purged? :P
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bjg2k1us
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