Armoury

[Emilio]

I'm just opening this thread to discuss about arms and armour in Laketown.

For now, I'm just posting some images.

(Note: Amost all of the pictures are cut off in halves. Click right on them and open in a new window to see in full.)

[Icristhus]

Deceptive Title: Much is this isn't armor.

[Emilio]

Did you expect me to describe everything about arms and armour in Laketown without the input of anyone else? The images show exactly what I expect to see in Laketown.

What about you? What do you want to see?

[toofast]

*posts a video of all the scenes in Laketown in The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug*

[Brian]

If you've ever played The Last Days mod for Mount and Blade, the arms and armour there are excellent. They're basically exactly what I would want to see.

[Emilio]

Do you have any screenshots?

[Icristhus]

Oh, I was kidding. I like everything you posted. But a lot of it wasn't what I'd expect to see in an armoury.

[Emilio]

Sorry, but, I chose the name because it was cooler than say "Closet" or "Chest".

[Letters]

Sorry, but, I chose the name because it was cooler than say "Closet" or "Chest".

Real warriors use bins.

I like the focus on cloth, leather, axes and spears.

[Emilio]

Real warriors use swords, spears, axes, shields and armor, and, they're all kept in an armoury.

[Nimrod]

I like the focus on cloth, leather, axes and spears.

This.

Here's a cheesebun for sharing your profound wisdom.

[Emilio]

Bows and arrows
Bows were used both for hunting and in battle. They were made from yew, ash or elm trees. The draw force of a 10th-century bow may have reached some 90 pounds force (400 N) or more, resulting in an effective range of at least 200 m depending on the weight of the arrow. A yew bow found at Viking Hedeby, which probably was a full-fledged war bow, had a draw force of well over 100 pounds. Replica bows using the original dimensions have been measured to between 100 and 130 pounds draw weight. A unit of length used in the Viking age called a bow shot corresponded to what was later measured as 227,5 m, or 800 feet. Illustrations from the time show bows being pulled back to the chest, rather than to the corner of the mouth or under the chin, as is common today.
Arrowheads were typically made from iron and produced in various shapes and dimensions, according to place of origin. Most arrowheads were fixed onto the arrow shaft by a shouldered tang that was fitted into the end of a shaft of wood. Some heads were also made of wood, bone or antler. Evidence for eagle feather flights has been found with the feathers being bound and glued on. The end of the shaft was flared with shallow self nocks, although some arrows possessed bronze cast nocks. The historical record also indicates that Vikings may have used barbed arrows, but the archaeological evidence for such technology is limited.
The earliest find of these relics were found in Denmark, seemingly belonging to the leading-warrior class, as per the graves in which they were found.
Spear
The spear was the most common weapon to the peasant class of Scandinavia and also throwing spears may have been used by the warrior class. They consisted of metal heads with a blade and a hollow shaft, mounted on wooden shafts of two to three metres in length, and were typically made from ash wood. The spear heads could measure between twenty and sixty centimetres with a tendency towards longer heads in the later Viking age.[2] Spear heads with wings are called krókspjót (hooked spear) in the sagas. Some larger-headed spears were called höggspjót (hewing spear) and could also be used for cutting. The barbed throwing spears were often less decorated than the ostentatious thrusting spears, as the throwing spears were often lost in battle.[4]
The spear was used both as a throwing weapon and as a thrusting weapon, although there was some specialization in design. Lighter, narrower spearheads were made for throwing; heavier broader ones, for stabbing.[2] Most evidence indicates that they were used in one hand. Limited evidence from a saga[citation needed] indicates that they may have been used with two hands, but not in battle. The head was held in place with a pin, which saga characters occasionally pull out to prevent a foe from re-using the weapon.
Compared to a sword, the spear can be made with inferior steel and far less metal overall. This made the weapon cheaper and probably within the capability of a common blacksmith to produce. Despite this, the spear held great cultural significance to the Viking warrior, as the primary weapon of Odin, the king of the Norse gods and the god of warfare, was the spear Gungnir.[5] The Eyrbyggja Saga alludes that a customary start to a battle included throwing a spear right over the enemy army to claim it for Odin.[6][7] Possibly due to its cultural significance, pattern-welded blades are common in spear heads, and the sockets were often decorated with silver inlaid patterns.[2]
Knife
Two distinct classes of knives were in use by Vikings. The more common one was a rather plain, single edge knife of normal construction, called a knifr. These are found in most graves, being the only weapon allowed for all, even slaves. Smaller versions served as the everyday utility tool, while longer versions were likely meant for hunting or combat or both. Weapon knives sometimes had ornamental inlays on the blade.[8] The construction was similar to traditional Scandinavian knives. The tang ran through a more or less cylindrical handle, the blade was straight with the edge sweeping upward at the tip to meet the back of the blade in a point.[8] The knife apparently played an important role for all Scandinavians. This is evidenced by the large number of knives found in burial sites of not only men, but also of women and children.[9]

The other type was the seax. The type associated with Vikings is the so-called broken-back style seax. It was usually a bit heavier than the regular knife and would serve as a machete- or falchion-like arm. A wealthier man might own a larger seax, some being effectively swords. With the single edge and heavy blade, this somewhat crude weapon would be relatively simple to use and produce, compared to the regular sword. A rather long tang is fitted to many examples, indicating they may have had a longer handle for two-handed use. The smaller knife-like seaxes were likely within the fabrication ability of a common blacksmith.
The Seax was in widespread use among the Migration period Germanic tribes, and is even eponymous of the Saxons. It appears in Scandinavia from the 4th century, and shows a pattern of distribution from the lower Elbe (Elbe Germans) to Anglo-Saxon England. While their popularity on the continent declines with the end of the Migration period, though they remained in the British Isles where it was taken up by the Vikings. The large, sword-like seaxes are primarily found in connection with Viking settlements in England and Ireland, but appear not very common in Scandinavia.[3]
Sword
The Viking sword was the primary weapon of the Viking and was for single-handed use to be combined with a shield, with a double edged blade length of typically around 90 cm. Its shape was still very much based on the swords of the Dark Ages and on the Roman spatha with a tight grip, long deep fuller and no pronounced cross-guard. This was in keeping with the rest of Europe as, at that time, this design of sword was the most widespread.[10] The double-edged blade design hints toward combat based on thrusting as opposed to hacking.[2]
Swords were very costly to make, and a sign of high status. Like Roman spathae they were worn in leather-bound wooden scabbards suspended from a strap across the right shoulder. Early blades were pattern-welded, a technique in which strips of wrought iron and mild steel were twisted and forged together, with the addition of a hardened edge. Later blades of homogeneous steel, imported probably from the Rhineland, bore inlaid makers' marks and inscriptions, such as INGELRII or ULFBERHT. Viking craftsmen often added their own elaborately decorated hilts, and many swords were given names, such as Leg-biter and Gold-hilt.[11] Swords with pattern-welded cores gave greater strength and flexibility.[2] The sword grip was usually made of an organic material such as wood, horn, or antler (which does not often survive for archeological uncovering) and may well have been wound around with textile.[12]
Owning a sword was a matter of high warrior honour. Persons of status might own ornately decorated swords with silver accents and inlays. Most Viking warriors would own a sword as one raid was usually enough to afford a good blade. Most freemen would own a sword with goðar, jarls and sometimes richer freemen owning much more ornately decorated swords. The poor farmers would use an axe or spear instead but after a couple of raids they would then have enough to buy a sword. One sword mentioned in the Laxdæla saga was valued at half a crown, which would correspond to the value of 16 milk-cows. Constructing such weapons was a highly specialized endeavour and many sword-blades were imported from foreign lands such as the Rhineland. Swords could take up to a month to forge and were of such high value that they were passed on from generation to generation. Often, the older the sword, the more valuable it became.[13]
A distinct class of early single edged swords is known from Eastern Norway at the time. These had grips similar to the double edged swords, and blades of comparable length. The blades varied from long and slim, like the more common two edged swords, to somewhat heavy, giving the weapon a more cleaver-like balance.[14] Confusingly the same finds are sometimes classified as "sabres" or "seaxes" in English literature.[15]
As mentioned above, a sword was so valued in Norse society that good blades were prized by successive generations of warriors. There is even some evidence from Viking burials for the deliberate and possibly ritual "killing" of swords, which involved the blade being bent so that it was unusable. Because Vikings were often buried with their weapons, the "killing" of swords may have served two functions. A ritualistic function in retiring a weapon with a warrior, and a practical function in deterring any grave robbers from disturbing the burial in order to get one of these costly weapons.[7][12] Indeed, archeological finds of the bent and brittle pieces of metal sword remains testify to the regular burial of Vikings with weapons, as well as the habitual "killing" of swords.[16]
Axe
Perhaps the most common hand weapon among Vikings in modern fiction was the axe. Swords were more expensive to make, and mostly wealthy warriors could afford a sword. The prevalence of axes in archaeological sites can likely be attributed to its role as not just a weapon, but also a common tool. This is supported by the large number of grave sites of female Scandinavians containing axes.[17] Several types of larger axes specialized for use in battle evolved, with larger heads and longer shafts. The larger forms were as long as a man and made to be used with both hands, called the Daneaxe. Some axe heads were inlaid with silver designs. In the later Viking era, there were axe heads with crescent shaped edges measuring up to 45 cm, called breiðöx (broad axe). The limitations of the weapon are limited reach and a slow recovery time after striking a blow. The double-bitted axes depicted in modern "Viking" art are likely pure fantasy.
Vikings most commonly carried sturdy axes that could be thrown or swung with head-splitting force.[18] The Mammen Axe is a famous example of such battle-axes, ideally suited for throwing and melee combat.[19]
An axe head was mostly wrought iron, with a steel cutting edge. This made the weapon less expensive than a sword, and was a standard item produced by blacksmiths, historically.
Like most other Scandinavian weaponry, axes were often given names. According to Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda, axes were often named after she-trolls.[20]

[Icarus]

Some may note that there is very little "armor" in those pictures, and a lot of cloth.

Iron will be a rarity. Your suit of chainmail will be worth as much as a small farm. Most folks (all folks) will be running around in thick padded armor or leather buffcoats.

This is a feature.

[Emilio]

Vikings were raiders and bandits. They always attack by surprise and avoid pitched battles. They valued speed and agility over heavy protective armor. Their axes were more to chop off arms and legs as well as splitting heads. Bearded axes were used to pull down their opponents' shields. They fought with wild savagery.

[Octavius]

Vikings were raiders and bandits. They always attack by surprise and avoid pitched battles. They valued speed and agility over heavy protective armor. Their axes were more to chop off arms and legs as well as splitting heads. Bearded axes were used to pull down their opponents' shields. They fought with wild savagery.

Be careful of this, though. This is not "Viking: the RPG" and they will not be setting out in longships to raid continental Europe.

The Northmen of Tolkien are usually described in documentaries as Saxons, or "Saxons with horses" - Tolkien was a scholar of Old English and was thought to have romanticized that period heavily in creating this region. (The ancestors of Rohan, specifically.)

Saxons and Vikings are not synonymous, and while we're looking for good inspiration here (like the awesome pictures you pulled above!) we do want to keep to canon where we can.

[Throttle]

Be careful not to make equipment too boring. Some form of metal-based armor should be realistically obtainable, like ringmail. I think a lot of players will feel underwhelmed if their warriors have to spend their lives in leather armor -- it's still a fantasy setting. It also needs to be somewhat balanced so that you don't get this huge gap between the haves and the have-nots. If it takes too long or too much effort to get decent armor, a bunch of problems crop up. There also needs to be some distinction between light and heavy armor or else every character in the game will take hide/sneak and just stealth around everywhere, which is obnoxious but inevitable if leather armor is the only thing most people can get.

[Letters]

Be careful not to make equipment too boring. Some form of metal-based armor should be realistically obtainable, like ringmail. I think a lot of players will feel underwhelmed if their warriors have to spend their lives in leather armor -- it's still a fantasy setting. It also needs to be somewhat balanced so that you don't get this huge gap between the haves and the have-nots. If it takes too long or too much effort to get decent armor, a bunch of problems crop up. There also needs to be some distinction between light and heavy armor or else every character in the game will take hide/sneak and just stealth around everywhere, which is obnoxious but inevitable if leather armor is the only thing most people can get.

"Light" armour has been done something of an injustice by previous RPIs, I feel. The stuff shouldn't necessarily have the protective value of butter, nor should it be so easy to move in. A scout should be dressed in cloth if they want to move lightly. Properly treated leather can be tough enough to turn a blow, if hard to move in. Boiled leather might be common around Esgaroth. Did I see a picture of lamellar above? I can envisage lamellar coats constructed from boiled leather and gambesons being favourites amongst soldiers. Regarding gambesons, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson

"There are two distinctive designs of gambeson; those designed to be worn beneath another armour, and those designed to be worn as independent armour. The latter tend to be thicker and higher in the collar, and faced with more resilient materials, such as leather, or heavy canvas. This variant is usually referred to as padded jack and made of several (some say around 18,[4] some even 30[5]) layers of cotton, linen or wool. These jacks were known to stop even heavy arrows[5] and their design of multiple layers bears a striking resemblance to modern day body armor, which substituted at first silk, ballistic nylon and later Kevlar as fabric."

[Emilio]

Oh, I thought they were Vikings on horses!

Not that many images of saxons, but:



This is actually the ornament on a drinking horn:

Bamberg: Old Town hall:

King's burial helmet:


Bard with lyre:


Death of a viking:

Viking Anglo Saxon:

Ancient Celtic shields and trophies:

[Throttle]

OPINION ON HOW I'D DO THE ARMOR SYSTEM:

One of the best things about ARPI's armor system was that quality generally only affected weight and durability, not the actual AC. I think this is important for gameplay and a key part of preventing the moneygrind treadmill. The ability to outfit your character in "competent" armor without a huge grind or investment of wealth was instrumental to game balance and to limiting the amount of powergaming that goes on. It's also important for clans so that they can give their recruits cheap, crappy armor that doesn't bankrupt the clan if the guy never logs on again but also doesn't get them killed because the armor doesn't protect them.

The tiers of armor should denote the types, not the power of the armor. Weapons were the opposite, being simply better versions of the same type of weapon as you went up in tiers, but that's alright because a weapon isn't actually the important factor in a character's combat viability. Armor and defensive skills are what really makes a warrior. I would arrange armor types like this:

BASIC ARMORCRAFTING (ARPI's poor-armorcrafting)
plain leather
ringmail
half-helms
small shields

HEAVY ARMORCRAFTING (ARPI's ordinary-)
chainmail
full helmets
large shields

ADVANCED ARMORCRAFTING (good-)
steel versions of the above
masterwork versions of the above

As such, the game would have three main classes of armor: leather, ringmail and chainmail. Leather would be the only thing that can be reliably used to sneak in, ringmail would be the normal armor worn by people who are somewhat serious about a career as an armsman, and chainmail would be used mostly by soldiers and particularly succesful independent groups.

You can then make a leather armor out of low-quality hide and get a piece of armor with the same protective properties as something made out of superbly tanned stag-leather or whatever the hell is best, but the latter will be a little lighter and a lot more durable.

Ringmail would be kind of a middle ground, good enough to serve as infantry armor but also common enough that a shitty, worn-down ringmail jerkin can be obtained in the pre-game shop. A full suit of ringmail would take some work but would be something that can be provided to most members of a combat-oriented clan or indie company.

I would actually recommend making ringmail almost as protective as chainmail but a lot less durable so that obtaining chainmail is not some huge upgrade in power but more of a status symbol and a final step towards badassery. The game doesn't need a huge equipment gap between ordinary characters and long-lived veterans (or powergamers).

The third tier of armor was never really enabled on ARPI/PRPI, and I don't think there should be new classifications of armor here. I'd designate this craftset entirely to making steel armor, as well as fancy-looking masterwork pieces of the ordinary leather/iron armors with little to no difference in weight/durability. Coded "progression" basically stops at iron chainmail save for the greater durability of steel armor. I can't stress enough how important it is that the ceiling for coded power of armor is fairly low. It's really going to be crucial for the game.

As for platemail, I'd frankly be content with it being ruled a thing that doesn't exist in this time and place. It tends to be gamebreaking, and it also clashes horribly with the way MUD combat works in terms of realism as well-made plate would actually make you nigh-invulnerable to most forms of weapons, which would obviously be completely broken.

For metals, I'd keep it fairly simple:
Slag iron - recycled iron as well as that obtained from bog ore; pretty common
Standard iron - self-explanatory; not exactly common but obtainable on par with titon on A/PRPI
Steel - self-explanatory; very rare and expensive, truly the exception




How various types of PCs would probably go about obtaining armor:

An independent hunter can start the game with low-quality leather and this will serve reasonably well for getting started. Since this won't last forever (estimated lifespan of a couple of weeks before it begins falling apart), a set of standard leather armor would be the long-term goal and can be obtained by hunting enough bucks - say eight or so - to get a set made and pay the armorcrafter in additional hides. If they know a crafter who will make it for free, it might only take six dead bucks worth of hide to get. Since bucks are kind of rare and take skill to hunt, they might opt instead to hunt fifteen wild pigs or something. Once this set of armor is obtained, there's no pressing need to further upgrade and the hunter might not do so until much later when they're at the peak of their career, if ever.

An independent armsman can start the game with a very worn ringmail jerkin and a dented spangenhelm, as well as a small wooden shield. This is serviceable enough that they won't die in a hard wind, but the armor is probably going to sustain significant damage even after one or two lengthy fights. Their first goal will be to get a sturdier ringmail tunic as well as a shield that's reinforced with iron so it doesn't break after four blows. They'll probably obtain this through some combination of inheriting pieces from dead friends, saving up the little money they get from odd jobs, and digging up a bit of bog ore when they can find the opportunity to head into the wild with others. If they live long enough and get a reputation for excelling as a private guard or competent militia reservesman, they might eventually earn a full set of serviceable ringmail and a large, durable shield as well as a full helmet which provides the luxury of partial cover for the eyes (and -30 to archery).

An independent company can do all of its own hunting and gathering ore, and might even have its own armorer as well. Even if they don't have the crafter, they'll be able to gather enough materials to have standard leather and ringmail made for their members. Outfitting everyone in chainmail is probably not an option, but it could be a distant goal for the group's leader.

A soldier should expect to be provided with the equipment they need for their duty. If still a recruit, this might be the most worn-down, lice-infested, foul-smelling ringmail jerkin in the armory, but it'll do the job. Upon being promoted to private, they'll be issued a decent suit of ringmail (or leather if they're a scout) and a half-helm, plus a proper reinforced shield. This'll be the standard issue gear of their career until they make corporal and finally get to don a chainmail and full-helm and hang with the big boys.

[Octavius]

Thanks, Throttle. That's an exceptionally well-pieced plan.

We need to keep in mind Icarus's post above, though.

Some may note that there is very little "armor" in those pictures, and a lot of cloth.

Iron will be a rarity. Your suit of chainmail will be worth as much as a small farm. Most folks (all folks) will be running around in thick padded armor or leather buffcoats.

This is a feature.

Icarus is pretty firm on the rarity of good metal being a feature, and Icarus is he-who-shall-be-obeyed on these matters as far as us builders are concerned.

Brainstorming needs to take Icarus' guidelines as parameters in order to be considered. If a suit of chainmail will be worth as much as a small farm, then it isn't reasonable that any company owner would ever have the goal of equipping his whole force. If we put chainmail in our minds as what Platemail was on old SOI, I think we're in a better place. I'd also suggest that "starting ringmail" wouldn't work under the same logic.

Can we expand out the lower levels of armor? What are the variations of leather armor? What are the variations of leather-with-a-little-metal? (I see those in the pics above)

Similarly, for brainstorming only, if we have a hard rule that good-iron-materials will be rare and difficult to get, it implies we have some brainstorming space in terms of "what about bad iron materials?" I don't know if proposals in this area will be accepted, but it is something to think on there. I personally do like the idea of something like bog-iron, or slag-iron, which can be much more brittle than other iron (easy to damage, break, and wear out) and perhaps with a weight change. It gives a lesser-tier that can be achievable for a mid-range character without unbalancing things.

TLDR: So, brainstorm up more levels on the low-end of your scale. Metal is going to be rarer than that.

[Emilio]

While your post was very informative, I don't recommend you steal the equipment off dead "friends" in front of me. You may end up seeing everything spinning uncontrollably and when it stops, your eyes will open widely as you stare at your headless body.

[Throttle]

So, brainstorm up more levels on the low-end of your scale.

I don't really understand what you mean by levels of armor. You are still using the variable system, right? I'm looking at a system similar to ARPI's where there's only really one object for each type of armor and then the variables determine the properties (basically just weight and durability). You can add variables for appearance if you want, but it's still just going to be 'a $armorstyle, $leathertype leather hauberk' or whatever. Do you want examples of variables?

Metal is going to be rarer than that.

Rarer than what? Quality iron can be rare but poor iron will have to be relatively accessible, otherwise it completely fucks with anyone who has a metal-based craftset or a skill for a type of weapon that can only be made of metal. The shitty iron also has to be serviceable enough to suffice for playability purposes, so no breaking after three hits. Is extreme scarcity of iron really something that's documented in some way? I hope Icarus permits for slag iron to be common enough not to hinder playability.

If you want more than three grades of metal, you can split the crappy iron into actual re-smelted scrap and then bog iron which is historically fairly decent -- it literally fuelled the viking age. It'd be feasible to say that the deposits along the River Running are of particularly impure ore, of course. The scrap can be truly awful and not really serviceable for weapons and armor (quality modifier of like 20%) so that you limit armor creep, whereas it'll suffice for non-combat purposes like lanterns and hinges and whatnot. Bog iron would be good for low-quality but usable armaments and also serves as the "other thing" that people go out looking for besides animals, as the setting can't have ARPI's extensive scavenging itemization.

[Emilio]

Okay. I guess we'll be using wooden nails, hinges and torches. Everything would be tied down with ropes, clothing strips and leather straps. This would mean using hay on roofs. No locks, keys, stirrups, buckets(even the wood ones) nor eating utensils(except the wood ones). All cooking would have to be done in clay pots or roast.

What else? This is the same as being a tribe of wild savages. Let's gather flint, stones and bones to make weapons and armor.

(Note: A paradise for thieves)

[Brian]

Personally I love the direction of the limited metal. My favourite armor would actually be no armor at all, in the day to day. If we look at the Fellowship, or Thorin's Company they only wore armor when they knew there was going to be a pitched battle, ie: Helm's Deep and the Battle of Five Armies. They put on armor when they knew it was going to go down, and when they didn't have a lot of walking to do. The rest of the time, it was no armor. Thorin's company walked through Mirkwood Forest without planning to wear armor, the Fellowship presumably planned to walk all the way to Gondor (and possibly Mordor depending on the direction they would have taken if Gandalf hadn't died!) without armor. Given these things, I don't think this is a bad model for us to follow here!

I like a lot of what Throttle said in his post as well, in terms of armor design. I like the idea of their really not being a great deal of disparity in protectiveness of the different armor types. I like that new players could have nearly as much protection as the wizened veterans. There could be many different types of armor, with relatively similar armor classes, but that were specialized against different impact sources (this seemed to be how it was on Atonement). For instance, you have your padded jacks that are better against blunt trauma, but worse against slashing, hardened leather that is better against piercing, and studded leather that was better against slashing, but all of them have a relatively equal armor class. Also note that those are just examples, I'm not sure what would realistically be better against what, or if that's just a design conceit we could have.

Whether or not there is lots of metal armor in the game doesn't really matter ultimately, as it will be applied across the entirety. If a kind of leather is the best anyone can expect, that becomes this game's plate/chain/whatever. It's just aesthetics at that point, and I don't think it will kill anybody.

Points that I'd like to see.

- wooden shields, period. Shields are not made of metal, save perhaps a boss and those are generally on smaller ones

- love Throttle's relatively equal protectiveness but different weights and durability concept. You could even have this within a particular "class" of armor. So for instance, in the cloth category, perhaps you can have a vest or a hauberk for your upper body. The vest has no sleeves (so doesn't cover the arm slots) the hauberk does. They're equally protective on the areas they cover, but the hauberk covers the arms, but also weighs more because it does. Figuring out the relative weight difference vs. added protection would be the balancing act.

- Speaking of which, no "sleeves" like we had in SoI 2! The idea of fastening sleeves onto your maille vest was always silly. The hauberks were either built with the sleeves, or didn't have them. Thankfully, in the ARPI code you can have a single item cover multiple locations, so hauberks can be described as having arms, and also protect them. Yay!

- also love the idea of stuff getting beat down on a fairly regular basis. I like the sounds of chips flying out of shields, hunks carved out of leather, and ragged rips in cloth. It will also keep crafters in things to do, and helps to cycle things through the economy.

[Throttle]

The difficulty with having a wide range of different armor types is that you need so many crafts. Variables can determine an item's weight and durability but not a whole lot else, so they're great for distinguishing between materials and of course appearance, but not so much for separate types with different stats. Each item that needs something like different limb coverage or a material that shouldn't be available to others (so that you can't make a linen chainmail or something) would need its own individual craft. You can reduce it a bit without sleeves, which I agree with, but it'd still be a whole extra set of crafts for each classification of armor.