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Losing interest

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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:05 am

Basically, I could make another pithy set of remarks, but I do that often enough that you can just assume there's one right here. Please take a moment to chuckle or frown, respectively.

Now then, I basically align myself with Oblivion on this "discussion", in that I don't think changes are necessary, and what changes could be construed as "helpful", and the operative term of the word there is used very loosely, might end up having consequences that do more harm than good, depending on how they get implemented.

The problem with this discussion is mostly biases, and the idea of admins reading into these discussions always make me a bit leery because typically no one is speaking absolutely objectively, which is where you want to come from when it deals with coded changes that govern what we can and can't do--unless you're okay with being biased or in favor of one group of players (for even quote unquote positive behavior) but punish another group as a consequence.

There's nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

Oh wait. Yes, there is, because on MUDs there's a concept called a "slippery slope", and the slippery slope argument is totally eye-rolling, but there's a complete and utter inability for players and staff to curb a problem, intercede in events unfolding or retract statements due to a combination of foresight or lack thereof, pride and prejudice.

So every time someone goes "let's just try this, we've tried it X way or Y way but I think Z way is good just because we haven't thrown the oar overboard yet!"

...I'm getting to the point, don't worry...

I cut in with how it's a bad idea, why it should be obvious that it is a bad idea, and how doing something because it's a different bad idea makes zero sense.

Well--that is to say, if you get back to me with a good idea, I could care less how people are benefited by the changes. Go wild. Until it pisses someone off, anyway.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Melkor » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:08 am

I think you're misunderstanding the point. If orcs have a penalty during daylight and infravision added, they go out in the night time. Then when humans stick to the day time like they have been, there aren't so many occurrences of the two opposing factions running into each other and certainly never any instances of gate-camping.

edit: Workerdrone posted while I was reading Siradril's post and typing this. I was responding to Siradril.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:14 am

Personally I don't have a problem with that arrangement, that doesn't mean it isn't an idiotic idea, in all but one aspect.

In exposed terrain, such as the kind outside the gates of Utterby directly, where sunlight can be found, it works exactly as intended with no hangups or problems to be seen. That's an instance of code, for once, Working As Intended. All rights reserved.

That code doing the same thing in the darkened canopies of Mirkwood, regardless of the hour at present, is where it starts getting stupid. And I mean really stupid. I mean horrendously, goddamned moronic.

So...oh okay, this is where I'm supposed to actually contribute to the discussion. But well, it's already been said, so I'll just parrot it. Give the Mirkwood rooms dark flags, and get the bit of code that adds daylight penalties to only apply the maluses to orcs when actually directly exposed to sunlight...as related to the room flags themselves.

Totally possible, it wouldn't be functionally different from how it worked in the old game, with the exception that Mirkwood is just a darker forest than Ithilien overall.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Siradril » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:20 am

Melkor wrote:I think you're misunderstanding the point. If orcs have a penalty during daylight and infravision added, they go out in the night time. Then when humans stick to the day time like they have been, there aren't so many occurrences of the two opposing factions running into each other and certainly never any instances of gate-camping.


No I understand you and what'd happen completely. But it doesn't make sense for Humans to travel at night time. So basically we'll either have Orcs no longer going out at daytime and thus have the inter-sphere interaction drop all the way to zero. Or they will go out at daytime to risk the penalties and then they'll feel it isn't fair for them to have such a disadvantage.

I personally frown upon gate camping on both spheres. You can't imagine Aragorn and Gimli going two rooms outside of Mordor's gates and hiding to pick up on a lone orc coming out. Just as you'd not expect Saruman or some other person to go out to a protected human town and pick on lone individuals. I personally don't think that this is proper PvP nor anywhere near realistic.

So instead of giving penalty to one side and reducing the interactivity, we can either take other measures that are not this firm or just change our ways. The first step of solving a problem is to realize there is a problem. As long as people keep defending their sphere or wrong behaviors, we will not get to have the best experience out of this game.

Ps: Just saw WorkerDrone's final post. If the dark or darker rooms can be made, then I'd wager it'd solve the problem. However it is just somewhat silly to see how far we are willing to go without someone stepping up and saying how silly this argument is.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:22 am

edited by Icarus: This argument is a special butterfly and I respect other players expressing other opinions that I may personally disagree with. Respect, it's what you do.

ETA:

This argument is fallacious and the former edit doesn't express adequately how patently silly and uninsightful it is.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Bri » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:40 am

Okay, so now that I'm 3 hrs past my bed time and finally finished mostly reading the posts on this thread I would like to put in my two cents worth.

This will be coming from an uninvolved individual, non-combatant perspective. I just hope I don't forget any of the idea's I've had while reading through everything. Considering how late it is, I will not be directly quoting anyone, simply going by memory.

1. Orc vision at night. Honestly, I do believe it is Cannon that Orcs can see much better than humans do at night. So the whole, they can't follow a warg through the woods at night argument is moot. Possibly slower? Yes, but I do recall a post stating they were sneaking. Guess what you do when you sneak. You move slower. Moot point.

2. Glowing eyes? I do not believe it was meant as in flashlights they could point and light the ground with. To me, glowing eyes would likely be more like a wild cats who's eyes refract light or even have a slight green hue to them as night time vision goggles do.

3. I am willing to bet that rp wise, there was some left to be desired by any on either side of the equation. There are always good players and players that could improve (or players that freak out and don't think) on either side.

For this one I have been on both sides of the fence. In SOI 1 I played a pc who was held up by someone with a sword in the anorien. I did shoot a couple emotes back and forth with the pc, but never a roll to see if I did escape them, warranting me running home to tell daddy who proceeded to chase said PC through the Anorien and Osgiliath.

On the flip side, I have also played a deaf PC who once went directly into the thick of where we were being boarded by people killing bugs. My PC walked slowly through a room of people that knew her as the announcements were going off on the radio about them being boarded and where all non coms were supposed to go. Instead, my pc walks right by the shaft the first bug pops out of after having gotten thrown about in the hallway by the ship docking or something. She would have been dead had some brave soul not popped out and given her the chance to escape. Then still she did not go to the room the other non coms were in. She hid, alone. And not behind a locked door.

So, another argument of you will always save your PC's skin, not truth. A lot of times people will, but some will go where the RP takes them. For me, that's usually to safety, but not quite always.

4. There was also a lot of talk about the infra vision and the daytime penalties for the orcs and the desire to have them back. Honestly, I agree with bringing these back, but also making some alterations as well. Such as the darkest parts of Mirkwood and some of the rooms in the bog where you have to go to get ore should remain perma dark or left lit with a description (and code in place) that explains why an orc would not have the daytime penalties in that area. With this in place it does a few things. One, for us crafters that see stepping outside the gate as a death sentence, even if we are guarded, it will allow us to feel at least somewhat more comfortable taking an armed escort outside the gates to forage for things we cannot find in the city without stepping immediately into the thick of the war zone. Gathering from the very edges of the forest should be safe enough for a resident of Utterby. Two, this also leaves the ability for the guard and the orcs to run into eachother. When the guards patrol the forests a little deeper in than the citizens go, they very well may still run into the orcs or when the guard go into the bog looking for ore. Three, though, putting this in place, there should also be something in place to make the immediate area around the orc gates generally safe as well. I am not sure what they should be, but I believe they should be there. Maybe clan specific, repopping wildlife that will not harm a Darkside resident, but will tear a human, elf, dwarf to shreds the instant they see them. Then set them to only wander the same amount of space from the orc base as we get for Utterby. Possibly cave boars/bears protecting their dens. Or even territorial mountain lions.

5. This thread boils down to a lot of people on both sides feeling like they were wronged. It always happens when someone loses a PC they have put a lot of time into and become attached to. This thread has also brought up a lot of valid points and arguments. One of the biggest take aways we can get from this is to always be trying to improve our standard of rp. Whether you are in the middle of the mirk and the opposite sphere walks in on you or you step into a room with two pc's present, give people a chance to emote and show you what the room looks like before you emote. Give them a minute or two before assuming they are idling. I know I have made hefty poses that took several minutes even to compose. One of my long standing values was to try to teach people to immerse themselves more and interact more deeply with the environment by showing them how I can do it. Laughably, I have caught myself being in what I call 'emote wars' where you try to get the longest emote out to describe what you are doing. While funny and amusing, they can get out of hand quickly. I have been known to outshine myself when I am trying to essentially show off to a less classy rper in order to elicit a like response.

I'm yawning my head off over here, so I need to get to bed. That is about all I can think of for now though. I guess I should call that my 5 cents worth. lol
Last edited by Bri on Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:43 am

Okay, correction. Bri contributed an insightful post.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Mithrandur » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:47 am

Siradril wrote:
You can't imagine Aragorn and Gimli going two rooms outside of Mordor's gates and hiding to pick up on a lone orc coming out.


Ahem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe66vWg6Rk4

Just sort of thought I'd throw that out there...
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:49 am

Actually I think that what got lost in the shuffle here is that originally (at least it seemed like it to me?) it wasn't anybody saying that anybody is a bad roleplayer or anything. It was Gobbo, who was involved, stating a question about a way that environments could perhaps have been taken into account better. Is that a weird thing to suggest? If we see things IG and think "You know, I think there's a way to improve on this," should we not bring it up here in hopes of trying to improve the standard of the game? I haven't actually seen anyone that is super upset about the actual -events- that occurred or asking for them to be changed, I've seen what seem to me to be legitimate questions about whether the process leading to those events was played out in as high quality and realistic a fashion as it could be.

Should we be asking those questions or is it too much to suggest that things could be done better? Sadly I'm taken to believe that it may be and I agree with Frigga and Icarus. It has always been the case that the only thing that will truly discourage behaviour is coded solutions. Anything else is placing your trust in other players and as Songweaver noted elegantly earlier in the thread, players are twinks :p

I think what it boils down to, and what it always boils down to, is that you can suggest a certain standard of play but the only way to enforce it is with code. If you chose to acknowledge the environment and circumstances even when it puts you at a disadvantage then you're probably going to get RPP, have other players love and want to play with you, etc. but you're also liable to be killed. If you want to be that player (who in my mind is a cut above the rest) you're voluntarily taking on the risk that comes along with it. It's a thing to make peace with. You may want to improve things, but other people likely won't get on board and that's just how it is, unfortunately.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:12 am

I'm trying to avoid getting to sucked in to this discussion. However:

In regards to orc nightvision the current solution is hands down the best. Beginning to fiddle about and make some rooms light and some dark and some semi-dark opens up to a whole host of new issues. And these issues wouldn't even be abusing the code. It would be using the code the way it's intended and it would result in more of these kinds of threads being created. So no, leave it as it is.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Melkor » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:41 am

Bri wrote:4. There was also a lot of talk about the infra vision and the daytime penalties for the orcs and the desire to have them back. Honestly, I agree with bringing these back, but also making some alterations as well. Such as the darkest parts of Mirkwood and some of the rooms in the bog where you have to go to get ore should remain perma dark or left lit with a description (and code in place) that explains why an orc would not have the daytime penalties in that area. With this in place it does a few things. One, for us crafters that see stepping outside the gate as a death sentence, even if we are guarded, it will allow us to feel at least somewhat more comfortable taking an armed escort outside the gates to forage for things we cannot find in the city without stepping immediately into the thick of the war zone. Gathering from the very edges of the forest should be safe enough for a resident of Utterby. Two, this also leaves the ability for the guard and the orcs to run into eachother. When the guards patrol the forests a little deeper in than the citizens go, they very well may still run into the orcs or when the guard go into the bog looking for ore. Three, though, putting this in place, there should also be something in place to make the immediate area around the orc gates generally safe as well. I am not sure what they should be, but I believe they should be there. Maybe clan specific, repopping wildlife that will not harm a Darkside resident, but will tear a human, elf, dwarf to shreds the instant they see them. Then set them to only wander the same amount of space from the orc base as we get for Utterby. Possibly cave boars/bears protecting their dens. Or even territorial mountain lions.


Very nice and insightful post, I agree. However, I have to point out that this defeats the purpose. If done this way, then orc are able to go out at both day and night traveling through darker parts of the forest to reach the bog or wherever they wish to go while humans can only go out during the day. That wouldn't be fair either.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:44 am

Also unsure about where all the stuff about it not being safe enough to go out the utterby/videos Mal gates came from? It shouldn't be for either side, it's the Mirkwood! This was about improving roleplay (or what some people think would be improving while others think it's fine) but has snowballed into a laundry list of issues :P
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:51 am

Brian wrote:Also unsure about where all the stuff about it not being safe enough to go out the utterby/videos Mal gates came from? It shouldn't be for either side, it's the Mirkwood! This was about improving roleplay (or what some people think would be improving while others think it's fine) but has snowballed into a laundry list of issues :P


Actually the original post is about the death of PCs and the lack of security. OP wanted the orcs to kill less. But, as you say, it has snowballed and there are now multiple debates going on.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Songweaver » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:46 am

Icarus wrote:I think myself and Frigga are quickly approaching the point where we don't trust players, and want to code restrictions to twinkish behavior. ROE is the devil, and RPP is a good stick, but coded restrictions are the only thing that stops the worst of the worst.

How does Arm deal with it?


Without trying to offer any solutions or suggestions at this time:

ARM doesn't tend to have long conversations on this topic, because its players have come to accept that PVP and character turnover is a big part of their game, and everyone there accepts twinkery more openly than here; part of this could be attributed to honesty. Most players who cry 'twink' on these forums are just as guilty of it themselves. In short, ARM's staff doesn't police PVP very heavily.

ARM also has a lot of combat-oriented players, and Utterby does not have many of those any more. ARM also has a more threatening PVE environment, which is probably part of that.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Doublepalli » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:09 am

By glowing eyes, bri said it best. When I think glowing eyes, I think what bri explained pretty much. The suggestions of keeping some rooms dark, lit rooms in the bog etc etc would be awesome, and I personally feel it wouldn't be unfair to humans anyways. Orcs/wargs versus humans, elves, dwarves. (Who still get fancy armor and weapons, being the last two). If the mirkwood got represented better with it's lighting, orcs got daytime penalties and elves got night vision, imo orcs would feel like true creatures of darkness.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:37 am

Songweaver wrote:
Icarus wrote:I think myself and Frigga are quickly approaching the point where we don't trust players, and want to code restrictions to twinkish behavior. ROE is the devil, and RPP is a good stick, but coded restrictions are the only thing that stops the worst of the worst.

How does Arm deal with it?


Without trying to offer any solutions or suggestions at this time:

ARM doesn't tend to have long conversations on this topic, because its players have come to accept that PVP and character turnover is a big part of their game, and everyone there accepts twinkery more openly than here; part of this could be attributed to honesty. Most players who cry 'twink' on these forums are just as guilty of it themselves. In short, ARM's staff doesn't police PVP very heavily.

ARM also has a lot of combat-oriented players, and Utterby does not have many of those any more. ARM also has a more threatening PVE environment, which is probably part of that.


All of this. ARM just doesn't care. They recognize that in PvP code takes precedence over RP, as that's the only way to do it. However, ARMs PvE environment has become significantly less dangerous over the last few years. I've even been told that they now have a lot of wildlife that is no longer aggro.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Brian » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:08 am

Jarlhen wrote:All of this. ARM just doesn't care. They recognize that in PvP code takes precedence over RP, as that's the only way to do it.


I feel there's a lot to consider in this statement. I think that Jarlhen may be right, that really, in PvP it is only about the code ultimately. Perhaps we're being naive as to what should be expected out of PvP? Is there any basis to crying foul over "poorly roleplayed" PvP when those cries seem to happen again and again and again? Is it time to acknowledge PvP for what it is instead of what we wish it to be and leave it at that?
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:21 am

Brian wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:All of this. ARM just doesn't care. They recognize that in PvP code takes precedence over RP, as that's the only way to do it.


I feel there's a lot to consider in this statement. I think that Jarlhen may be right, that really, in PvP it is only about the code ultimately. Perhaps we're being naive as to what should be expected out of PvP? Is there any basis to crying foul over "poorly roleplayed" PvP when those cries seem to happen again and again and again? Is it time to acknowledge PvP for what it is instead of what we wish it to be and leave it at that?


Yeah man, you've been here since before text was invented. You know how many times these debates have cropped up over the years. I'd say roundabout 30%+ of every encounter in old SoI resulted in some kind of forum thread, whine to admin, whine to other players, something which looks like this. It's hardly a new discussion.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:40 pm

Brian wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:All of this. ARM just doesn't care. They recognize that in PvP code takes precedence over RP, as that's the only way to do it.


I feel there's a lot to consider in this statement. I think that Jarlhen may be right, that really, in PvP it is only about the code ultimately. Perhaps we're being naive as to what should be expected out of PvP? Is there any basis to crying foul over "poorly roleplayed" PvP when those cries seem to happen again and again and again? Is it time to acknowledge PvP for what it is instead of what we wish it to be and leave it at that?

considering that this was one of the very few pvp engagements where both sides actually stopped to roleplay rather than jumping straight to code and using every advantage at their disposal to come out on top, and there is still a 4 page topic of people calling eachother twinks and demanding that everyone's RPP is set to 0, I'm tempted to agree that the community in general isn't mature enough to mix roleplay with PVP.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Melkor » Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:08 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Brian wrote:
Jarlhen wrote:All of this. ARM just doesn't care. They recognize that in PvP code takes precedence over RP, as that's the only way to do it.


I feel there's a lot to consider in this statement. I think that Jarlhen may be right, that really, in PvP it is only about the code ultimately. Perhaps we're being naive as to what should be expected out of PvP? Is there any basis to crying foul over "poorly roleplayed" PvP when those cries seem to happen again and again and again? Is it time to acknowledge PvP for what it is instead of what we wish it to be and leave it at that?

considering that this was one of the very few pvp engagements where both sides actually stopped to roleplay rather than jumping straight to code and using every advantage at their disposal to come out on top, and there is still a 4 page topic of people calling eachother twinks and demanding that everyone's RPP is set to 0, I'm tempted to agree that the community in general isn't mature enough to mix roleplay with PVP.


Gotta say, this man's speaking some truth. And imo, it's further evidence that we need a lot less pvp. If we can't have pvp focused heavily around rp, I'd rather not have it at all.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:22 pm

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ETA:

No, okay.

Everything is fine how it is. If anything had to be said, if anything had to be contributed to this discussion, let there be no confusion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game, there's something up with the lack of maturity being displayed by the people involved instead. Whoever brought up the whole "lack of maturity" issue had it spot on, but there's really nothing we can do about that. That's a community thing.

That's not even a community thing, that's a firmly personal issue, and it's not like you can intervene on the behalf of every player who hasn't matured past starting these trite old threads.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Frigga » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:20 pm

Or you know ... doing some of the things discussed in them.

I'm not sure one can place all of the onus on one bringing up an issue so many people feel so strongly about, one way or the other. That's inferring that mentioning a problem is a worse crime than the crime itself.

If the conversation has run full coarse, it can die a death or get locked, but let's not let it totally devolve.
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Re: Losing interest

Postby bjg2k1us » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:38 pm

So.

There are three real issues with PvP in a game like this:

1) Different types of players, with different expectations. Some people are always going to go to code sooner than others want them to, and there's no real way to regulate that; at least, no way that will make everyone happy. So in the end, someone is almost always going to walk away from a PvP encounter with a bad taste in their mouth, not necessarily because anything was done 'wrong', but because it wasn't what they were hoping it would be.

2) The code (combat + movement) doesn't lend itself to realistic outdoor encounters. You get in a room with someone - a room a mile wide perhaps - and they're fair game. Positioning and tactics are entirely up to interpretation, which generally winds up a lot like five-year-olds playing cowboys and indians: "I got you!" "Nuh-uh, you missed!" "I was up on a ridge, you can't just type hit like that!" "Yuh-huh!" And then... what does it mean to 'flee'? Did you get away, or are you a legitimate target when the pursuer follows you into the next room and types 'hit X' immediately? The code says you are, and the main determining factor in who lives and dies is how fast you can type without making an error.

3) The setting. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Orcs versus humans is just not a good concept to build a roleplay-intensive game around, because the only real roleplay you're going to get is about 5 minutes of everyone going "ARRR KILL THEM" and making their best battle pose before they go to code. Frankly, you could have all just gone to code off the bat, and very little would have been lost. There's no nuance, no options, no interesting encounters to be had between the two spheres in this game. It's all kill or be killed, with the rare option of being captured. Which... yeah, ask any SOI captive how much fun that is.


How can these problems be solved? I'd posit that #1 can't be solved at all - the best you could do is discourage all but one narrow, like-minded set of players to participate, and that isn't really an improvement. SOI needs as many players with as much diversity as it can get. #2 is far, far more work than this game and the staff are up for, to be brutally honest. A complete rewrite of combat and movement code to accurately take into account in-room positioning, fatigue, while simultaneously ensuring combat victory goes to the superior CHARACTER rather than the more experienced PLAYER? I just don't see that happening any time soon, and if that makes me a sour pessimist, then so be it.

#3? That could be addressed in any number of ways. If the sphere options in this game were such that encountering a member of another faction was a more complex situation than "OMG THE BADGUYS/GOODGUYS, ATTACK!", we might have more interactions that were... trade and political opportunities? Cultural exchanges and misunderstandings? Subterfuge and intrigue? Maybe there'd actually be interactions that never even had to go to code in the first place, and maybe the natural reaction of players when encountering something different would be more 'oh, this is interesting, let's see where this goes' and less 'ok, how do I win this?'

TL:DR: Orcs versus humans is actually bad for the game, and the sooner SOI gets away from it, the better. Let the hate flow. 8-)
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Re: Losing interest

Postby WorkerDrone » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:43 pm

I'd posit that humans vs orcs is bad for the game, and the sooner SoI gets away from it, the better.

Functionally the same result, kind of...only with the human sphere consolidated into the orc one.

(If it wasn't obvious, I am being sarcastic.)
I hope you die right now, will you drink my chemical?

Brian wrote:See, the thing that I admire about WorkerDrone is that he's an optimist!

:lol:
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Re: Losing interest

Postby Oblivion » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:32 pm

It comes down to simply accepting that in the world of player vs player combat, the code does equal rp.

All the meaningful 'emotes' come after the engagements where the players have time to reflect on the outcomes. Either through mourning the loss of their dead, to celebrating their victories to sacrificing captives.

I can say straight off the bat, that if this game devolves into a one race/sphere setting, I'd be gone before the 'Consolidation' could take place where admins kill off all of the offending race.

I don't want to play a 'shitty life simulator' where my biggest goal in life is to advance from digging in dirt with a stick as a child, to hauling coal and firewood as an apprentice, to sitting through real life years worth of 'lessons' from an oft absent 'Master' to eventually owning my own shop. All the while staring at the same set of bland characters all around me doing the same exact thing for different professions, all interspersed with the random gem characters who 'get all the plotz'.
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