Moderator: Elder Staff
by Jarlhen » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:09 am
[From Shammat] The Dark Lord demands more mashed potatoes.
by Ceredir » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:24 am
by Mithrandur » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:10 am
biral wrote:Mitrandur;
That said, I'm all for nerfing concussion and winding
people in combat as they're really sort of overpowered
in that regard. Fractures I would keep in as they happen
rarely enough, and really all it does is make a slow-
healing injury rather than bleed the life out of someone
in the middle of combat.
Basically, you're jumping on the nerf bludgeon train because winding and concussion are overpowered. You realize concussions are hard to achieve in normal combat without spamming 'strike head' which just gives long-edge users more time to lay bleeders on the bludgeon user and even then the bludgeon user may not hit enemy on the head because its a small part of the body figure wise.
Now, touching on the winding section. Have you ever been shot at wearing kevlar? I haven't, but I've seen videos, what happens to these people who wear even the best kevlar grade out there? They're winded and most of them couldn't do a thing for a little if they wanted to, all because it converts potential fatal hole bleeder wound into blunt trauma, now, take a sledgehammer and wear riot gear which serves to protect against projectiles and debris and small bludgeon instruments like night-sticks, get hit by that sledgehammer, what happens? You're winded. That's because the sledgehammer is massive compared to night-stick, even with a mace you -will- wind that riot cop. Noone is going to go for little makeshift weapons when they have the best available to them.
Now to touch on that bleeding part, you're basically ok with the way swords can bleed you down stars of health in combat and drop con stat?
If bludgeons are nerfed, why don't we just remove everyones bludgeons in game they've spent coin on and time on and thought to get them decorated etc. And then just give everyone swords to wave around and pretend its Star Wars.
Do your research on bludgeons in real life before asking for them to be nerfed. Oh, and while were at it let's nerf Elf's Crist too?
by Mithrandur » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:30 am
He appears close to death.
REDACTED has a minor gash on the thorax, a minor gash on the face, a moderate contusion on the skull, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate slice on the skull, and a moderate gash on the thorax.
by biral » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:50 am
by Mithrandur » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:55 am
biral wrote:Stop whining. Anyways, realism is not always important. Nothing about this game is real. If you want realism all the time over flavor and whatnot then leave this game and use that collection you got, it should be a blast.
by Songweaver » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:53 am
by tehkory » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:09 am
Songweaver wrote:Refer to my post on the previous page. :p
Concussing is not the problem with bludgeons. Concussions are not imbalanced, nor are they common (compared to bleeding wounds). The only thing that needs to be fixed is the armor-type-AC chart, because when it was created, it was not created with the goal being to make each of the weapon-types chart values add up to a sum 0. I posted a sample "fixed" chart back on the first page of this thread.
Other than that, melee weapons and armor are far more balanced in this game than they have been, previously (in other RPIs).
ETA (in regards to swords)
There is a relatively easy way to add a script to weapons to allow the wielder to change their "grip-type", and therefor change their damage noun. I did this with the weapon/combat revamp that I did for Atonement Gamma/Omega. For instance, you could apply a script triggered by typing "suppenate grip" on a sword to change that sword from slashing to piercing damage. Typing "pronate grip" could allow you to switch back to slashing damage. That's a simple 5 line script that you could basically apply to all sword objects with maybe 30 minutes of work.
Doing this for swords, at the least (because you could also do it for longknives), would actually be a relatively good reason for causing them to have their prerequisite.
Now to touch on that bleeding part, you're basically ok with the way swords can bleed you down stars of health in combat and drop con stat?
by Songweaver » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:20 am
by radioactivejesus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:43 am
Mithrandur wrote:Further, to sort of prove a point, a pc that had a run in with pvp combat.He appears close to death.
REDACTED has a minor gash on the thorax, a minor gash on the face, a moderate contusion on the skull, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate slice on the skull, and a moderate gash on the thorax.
So, please tell me again how head strikes in combat are so uncommon and unlikely that they almost never happen. By all means.
by radioactivejesus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:52 am
by radioactivejesus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:58 am
MrT2G wrote:Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).
by tehkory » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:02 pm
I did fix the frost damage issue late in Atonement with that script. It was a simple bug.
Somatics can, theoretically, be treated if builders create medicinal tools designed to help reduce somatic effect strength and duration.
As far as I know, the only medicinal tools on SOI3 that exist are moon-flowers (minor boost to treat roll, minor wound regeneration rate), and the simple healing kits (no boost to treat roll, no boost to wound regeneration rate).
Neither of those tools are aimed at treating broken bones or concussions, and SOI3 lacks other somatic effects.
radioactivejesus wrote:If concussion and winding get removed to nerf bludgeon, then they would have no real special effects, and to keep things balanced swords and spears would need to lose their bleed effects. What we'd end up with is a bunch of incredibly bland weapons that work exactly the same aside from where they sit on the AC-modifier chart
I think what Songweaver means is that bleeding will reduce your max health for some time. If you've ever seen anyone get shot with a few arrows, they'll have a 'he looks slightly pale' 'he looks extremely pale' etc. message from the blood-loss, which takes several days to go away.
//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Mail
//5 - Scale
//6 - Plate
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords
by Frigga » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:39 pm
by radioactivejesus » Wed Apr 15, 2015 4:51 pm
Frigga wrote:I'm staying away from comments on combat or weapon code (I've expressed before that's not my field), but ... I will comment there are indeed, more than two healing items in game. There are indeed casts, multiple types of bandages, ointments, etc.
However, currently they are largely textile based, so if you are Orc side you might not realize. Need to ponder some more rustic things Orcs can use too.
Also, if weapons get multiple damage types, I'll want critters to bite and slash.
by MrT2G » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:20 pm
radioactivejesus wrote:MrT2G wrote:Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).
short-blade users also get this benefit. Daggers are are pierce/stab, and longknives are slash.
by Songweaver » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:28 pm
tehkory wrote:
Note: Positive numbers suggest better effectiveness against that armor-type, while negative numbers suggest less effectiveness against that armor-type.
- Code: Select all
//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Mail
//5 - Scale
//6 - Plate
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords
Note how axes(chop) is categorically worse than swords(slash) against leather/cloth/hardened leather, and bludgeon is even worse off. With the armor/charts/weapons in-game, bludgeon's just worse than long-blade.
Maybe it'll be overpowered later, but...for right now, unless I'm reading these numbers wrong, than given the same attack speed/damage, how exactly is using an axe -or- a bludgeon better than a sword against 9/10ths of the armor people are wearing(the superior armor, might-I-add), leathers?
Let's talk numbers here, people.
:I'd suggest making a few changes and simplifying, with the goal to be something like below (where each major damnoun has equal strengths and weaknesses). Note that I'm ignoring scale/plate -- I don't think that you need these (just better quality mail/metal to represent the better types of metal armor), and they will certainly break the game as-is.
//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Metal Armor
//1 2 3 4
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // stab -- small-blades, knives, daggers
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // pierce -- polearms, arrows
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // chop -- axes
{0, 0, 1, -1}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // slash -- swords
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // lash -- whips
{ 0, -1, -2, 3}, // burn - blowtorches, flamethrowers, etc.
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // regular arrows
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // broadhead arrows - +2 armour to all, +4 bleed
{ 0, 0, 0, 0} // bodkin arrows - -2 armour to all
Bolded is mine. This wording's always been very confusing to me. Does your opponent get +2AC vs broadhead arrows, in addition to the armor chart? If so, I'd make broadhead be four 0s across the board.
Also note that this change might demand upping the inherent AC of oquality+ metal/mail armor by a single point.
by Eru » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:49 pm
by Ceredir » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:56 pm
MrT2G wrote:In my experience, all short-blades pierce.
by Songweaver » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:47 am
by Droll » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:28 pm
by Real » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:21 pm
by Jarlhen » Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:34 pm
[From Shammat] The Dark Lord demands more mashed potatoes.
by biral » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:18 pm
by Mithrandur » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:38 pm
radioactivejesus wrote:MrT2G wrote:Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).
short-blade users also get this benefit. Daggers are are pierce/stab, and longknives are slash.
Multiple damage types are something I'd like to see on all the weapon skills. Swords could get narrow-bladed thrusting weapons that deal stab damage and falchions that deal chop damage. Spear users could also get halberds that deal chop damage, though I'm not sure if the halberd is a canon weapon for SOI.