[Feedback Request] Current Armor & Weapons

[Jarlhen]

I don't know if it's possible to have two damage types. But if it is swords should have slash/pierce. The versatility of swords when it comes to hurting people should be one of their big strengths.

[Ceredir]

Codedly, that is already addressed by the 'slashing' damage type. Only weapons capable of both cutting and stabbing are slashing damage type.

The only thing would be that you don't get flashy 'stab' messages/wound descriptions, but that really is just a roleplay thing.

[Mithrandur]

Mitrandur;

That said, I'm all for nerfing concussion and winding
people in combat as they're really sort of overpowered
in that regard. Fractures I would keep in as they happen
rarely enough, and really all it does is make a slow-
healing injury rather than bleed the life out of someone
in the middle of combat.

Basically, you're jumping on the nerf bludgeon train because winding and concussion are overpowered. You realize concussions are hard to achieve in normal combat without spamming 'strike head' which just gives long-edge users more time to lay bleeders on the bludgeon user and even then the bludgeon user may not hit enemy on the head because its a small part of the body figure wise.

Now, touching on the winding section. Have you ever been shot at wearing kevlar? I haven't, but I've seen videos, what happens to these people who wear even the best kevlar grade out there? They're winded and most of them couldn't do a thing for a little if they wanted to, all because it converts potential fatal hole bleeder wound into blunt trauma, now, take a sledgehammer and wear riot gear which serves to protect against projectiles and debris and small bludgeon instruments like night-sticks, get hit by that sledgehammer, what happens? You're winded. That's because the sledgehammer is massive compared to night-stick, even with a mace you -will- wind that riot cop. Noone is going to go for little makeshift weapons when they have the best available to them.

Now to touch on that bleeding part, you're basically ok with the way swords can bleed you down stars of health in combat and drop con stat?

If bludgeons are nerfed, why don't we just remove everyones bludgeons in game they've spent coin on and time on and thought to get them decorated etc. And then just give everyone swords to wave around and pretend its Star Wars.

Do your research on bludgeons in real life before asking for them to be nerfed. Oh, and while were at it let's nerf Elf's Crist too?

Nice strawman argument there.

First of all, I didn't say 'nerf bludgeon' I said, 'remove concussion and winding'. This goes for training weapons as well, as well as blunt trauma from troll fists save for fractures.

Second, if these effects are -so- rare and uncommon, and not affecting combat in any way... then why is everyone so up in arms about the thought of removing them? Unless they -are- in fact fairly common and have a huge impact on combat. All this aside, lets actually look at WHY I feel they need to be removed.

To go with your comparison, a sledgehammer and a mace are two massively different entities. How do I know? I happen to collect weapons. Like a lot of them. Some combat ready, some fantasy weapons but either way I know very well the weight of what a typical axe, sword, or mace is in hand ( http://imgur.com/a/FIbCX ). As such, I would -like- to think I have a little bit more hands on experience to what these things are capable of than most. As well as the damage they would do through armor. Yes, if you get hit with a 12+ pound giant hunk of metal at the end of a stick full swing, you're going to get winded. Maces, like -actual- maces, are not that large by -any- means, nor are you in most cases swinging them with both hands like a baseball bat.

That said, are you wanting to equate a mace swing to that of a bullet? Seriously? First of all, what grain weight or caliber bullet are we talking here? Are we talking 9mm, or are we talking .50's? A handgun to go shooting with on the weekend or an anti-tank round? What muzzle velocity is the bullet traveling at? At a target what distance away? If you're going to use an analogy, be more specific. That said, lets science this up a bit.

As an example, take a 230 grain .45 ACP hollow point bullet traveling at 830 ft/s at the time of impact. Assume it comes to a dead stop in about 0.001 seconds (probably a reasonable assumption given the velocity and the width of a human).

So: F = 230 grain * 830 ft/s / 0.001 s times a conversion factor (given by google) of 4.44 x 10^(-6) yields a force of about 850 pounds of force.

This is roughly equivalent to what some heavy-weight boxers can produce in the ring against -unarmored- opponents.

The difference is how quickly the force dissipates behind each. With a bullet, the force dissipates almost instantly, with a punch (or a mace swing) The force has much more momentum behind it.

Also keep in mind, people in Middle Earth are much more hardy than your typical joe couch-potato. Soldiers even more so. In the heat of combat, they're going to be on edge and prepared for incoming blows. Look at professional boxers. They take quite a few body blows, and typically unless a rib is broken (fracture) tend to still be in the fight.

Now, lets take that same boxer, strap on some fairly sturdy leather armor on him. Then we have someone take a 2 lb hammer and hit him in the gut with it (one handed) Is it going to bruise? Yeah. Is he going to be gasping his brains out, and be completely out of breath? Probably not.

[Mithrandur]

Further, to sort of prove a point, a pc that had a run in with pvp combat.

He appears close to death.

REDACTED has a minor gash on the thorax, a minor gash on the face, a moderate contusion on the skull, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate slice on the skull, and a moderate gash on the thorax.

So, please tell me again how head strikes in combat are so uncommon and unlikely that they almost never happen. By all means.

[biral]

Stop whining. Anyways, realism is not always important. Nothing about this game is real. If you want realism all the time over flavor and whatnot then leave this game and use that collection you got, it should be a blast.

[Mithrandur]

Stop whining. Anyways, realism is not always important. Nothing about this game is real. If you want realism all the time over flavor and whatnot then leave this game and use that collection you got, it should be a blast.

If you don't want realism, then don't try to argue for realism then backtrack when it turns out the other person knows more than you.

That said, I'm not whining. I'm making a suggestion to make weapons more balanced and on par with each other rather than giving one advantages that others do not.

[Songweaver]

Refer to my post on the previous page. :p

Concussing is not the problem with bludgeons. Concussions are not imbalanced, nor are they common (compared to bleeding wounds). The only thing that needs to be fixed is the armor-type-AC chart, because when it was created, it was not created with the goal being to make each of the weapon-types chart values add up to a sum 0. I posted a sample "fixed" chart back on the first page of this thread.

Other than that, melee weapons and armor are far more balanced in this game than they have been, previously (in other RPIs).


ETA (in regards to swords)

There is a relatively easy way to add a script to weapons to allow the wielder to change their "grip-type", and therefor change their damage noun. I did this with the weapon/combat revamp that I did for Atonement Gamma/Omega. For instance, you could apply a script triggered by typing "suppenate grip" on a sword to change that sword from slashing to piercing damage. Typing "pronate grip" could allow you to switch back to slashing damage. That's a simple 5 line script that you could basically apply to all sword objects with maybe 30 minutes of work.

Doing this for swords, at the least (because you could also do it for longknives), would actually be a relatively good reason for causing them to have their prerequisite.

That said, the absolute most broken thing about SOI's combat system is its allowance for characters to dual-wield medium-sized weapons. The weapons, and the engine, were not designed to account for this adequately, and as I've stated previously on this thread, it leads to extremely broken DPS, particularly against lower quality armored opponents.

Additionally, it's just not realistic at all. Nobody has ever created an effective combat style centered around dual-wielding, except for dual-wielded daggers and dual-wielding a sword + offhand parrying dagger. Never in history (either ours or Tolkien's) has anyone run around using two longswords, two maces, two axes, or two spears to any level of measurable success.

[tehkory]

Refer to my post on the previous page. :p

Concussing is not the problem with bludgeons. Concussions are not imbalanced, nor are they common (compared to bleeding wounds). The only thing that needs to be fixed is the armor-type-AC chart, because when it was created, it was not created with the goal being to make each of the weapon-types chart values add up to a sum 0. I posted a sample "fixed" chart back on the first page of this thread.

Other than that, melee weapons and armor are far more balanced in this game than they have been, previously (in other RPIs).


ETA (in regards to swords)

There is a relatively easy way to add a script to weapons to allow the wielder to change their "grip-type", and therefor change their damage noun. I did this with the weapon/combat revamp that I did for Atonement Gamma/Omega. For instance, you could apply a script triggered by typing "suppenate grip" on a sword to change that sword from slashing to piercing damage. Typing "pronate grip" could allow you to switch back to slashing damage. That's a simple 5 line script that you could basically apply to all sword objects with maybe 30 minutes of work.

Doing this for swords, at the least (because you could also do it for longknives), would actually be a relatively good reason for causing them to have their prerequisite.

IIRC, this got removed due to dealing frost-bite damage every-so-often, but I didn't ever see it do that -too- much. I don't know much(read as: I don't know shit), but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to fix. It was a pretty cool prog all-in-all.

Now to touch on that bleeding part, you're basically ok with the way swords can bleed you down stars of health in combat and drop con stat?

There are so many, many, many inconsistencies and incorrect statements in this thread, but this one's the biggest I've seen. Bleeding does not reduce con. Being knocked unconscious reduces con. Bleeding deals bleed damage, which seems to heal at a far slower rate than anything else(and can't be helped along), but I'm rather sure it doesn't reduce con.

[Songweaver]

I did fix the frost damage issue late in Atonement with that script. It was a simple bug.

Bleeding does not reduce constitution. It does, however, affect DPS and recovery time for wounds, and bleeding wounds are more likely to become infected (thus, further increasing recovering time). Wounds that cause concussions heal at a faster rate, but the concussion itself has a somatic timer that is separate from the wound. Somatics can, theoretically, be treated if builders create medicinal tools designed to help reduce somatic effect strength and duration. As far as I know, the only medicinal tools on SOI3 that exist are moon-flowers (minor boost to treat roll, minor wound regeneration rate), and the simple healing kits (no boost to treat roll, no boost to wound regeneration rate). Neither of those tools are aimed at treating broken bones or concussions, and SOI3 lacks other somatic effects.

[radioactivejesus]

Further, to sort of prove a point, a pc that had a run in with pvp combat.

He appears close to death.

REDACTED has a minor gash on the thorax, a minor gash on the face, a moderate contusion on the skull, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate bruise on the face, a moderate slice on the skull, and a moderate gash on the thorax.

So, please tell me again how head strikes in combat are so uncommon and unlikely that they almost never happen. By all means.

looks to me like he was going up against a far higher skilled opponent, or somebody was spamming shield-bash on him, or both. I never said head strikes never happen, just that they happened far less frequently than strikes landing everywhere else on the body, and that the frequency of bleeders balances out with the potency of concussions. I don't think anyone really believes that getting hit in the head is a mythical-unicorn occurance.

I think what Songweaver means is that bleeding will reduce your max health for some time. If you've ever seen anyone get shot with a few arrows, they'll have a 'he looks slightly pale' 'he looks extremely pale' etc. message from the blood-loss, which takes several days to go away.

[radioactivejesus]

If concussion and winding get removed to nerf bludgeon, then they would have no real special effects, and to keep things balanced swords and spears would need to lose their bleed effects. What we'd end up with is a bunch of incredibly bland weapons that work exactly the same aside from where they sit on the AC-modifier chart

[radioactivejesus]

Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).

short-blade users also get this benefit. Daggers are are pierce/stab, and longknives are slash.
Multiple damage types are something I'd like to see on all the weapon skills. Swords could get narrow-bladed thrusting weapons that deal stab damage and falchions that deal chop damage. Spear users could also get halberds that deal chop damage, though I'm not sure if the halberd is a canon weapon for SOI.

[tehkory]

I did fix the frost damage issue late in Atonement with that script. It was a simple bug.

I believe it popped back up in Parallel, then got removed, but that may have been political as much as anything else. MUDs, amirite?

Somatics can, theoretically, be treated if builders create medicinal tools designed to help reduce somatic effect strength and duration.

Awesome.

As far as I know, the only medicinal tools on SOI3 that exist are moon-flowers (minor boost to treat roll, minor wound regeneration rate), and the simple healing kits (no boost to treat roll, no boost to wound regeneration rate).

There's more, I just don't know what the hell they do.

Neither of those tools are aimed at treating broken bones or concussions, and SOI3 lacks other somatic effects.

And likely neither do the ones currently in-game, though it'd be nice if specific tools(splints, etc.) were created to deal with those, at relatively reduced effectiveness compared to straight-healing/cut bandagework.

If concussion and winding get removed to nerf bludgeon, then they would have no real special effects, and to keep things balanced swords and spears would need to lose their bleed effects. What we'd end up with is a bunch of incredibly bland weapons that work exactly the same aside from where they sit on the AC-modifier chart

This'd be pretty sad, yeah D=. I don't want to see that(and fwiw, I don't really think they're overpowered. I'd say polearms are strictly the most powerful currently, but that's just me).

I think what Songweaver means is that bleeding will reduce your max health for some time. If you've ever seen anyone get shot with a few arrows, they'll have a 'he looks slightly pale' 'he looks extremely pale' etc. message from the blood-loss, which takes several days to go away.

Songweaver wasn't the gentleman I was quoting, though that's not terribly important. The thing to remember is that constitution's not solely max health. It's rate-of-regeneration and stamina, too. Bloodloss acts like a singular, untreatable wound. While it 'reduces your maximum HP' in the same way that any wound reduces your max HP, it's certainly not attacking your constitution directly. But that's already been said.

Honestly, I wonder how much the problem with swords is that they're just not powerful as they were in SoI-That-Was, where the best weapons were swords just because overpowered ones got built. I think a lot of the whole 'x is more powerful' is just because they're

And I'm -really- confused as to what people are wearing orc-side, given that leather armor is the standard/best armor in-game and that bludgeons are primarily good at dealing bludgeon damage.

Note: Positive numbers suggest better effectiveness against that armor-type, while negative numbers suggest less effectiveness against that armor-type.

Code: Select all

//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Mail
//5 - Scale
//6 - Plate
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords

Note how axes(chop) is categorically worse than swords(slash) against leather/cloth/hardened leather, and bludgeon is even worse off. With the armor/charts/weapons in-game, bludgeon's just worse than long-blade.

Maybe it'll be overpowered later, but...for right now, unless I'm reading these numbers wrong, than given the same attack speed/damage, how exactly is using an axe -or- a bludgeon better than a sword against 9/10ths of the armor people are wearing(the superior armor, might-I-add), leathers?

Let's talk numbers here, people.

[Frigga]

I'm staying away from comments on combat or weapon code (I've expressed before that's not my field), but ... I will comment there are indeed, more than two healing items in game. There are indeed casts, multiple types of bandages, ointments, etc.

However, currently they are largely textile based, so if you are Orc side you might not realize. Need to ponder some more rustic things Orcs can use too.

Also, if weapons get multiple damage types, I'll want critters to bite and slash.

[radioactivejesus]

I'm staying away from comments on combat or weapon code (I've expressed before that's not my field), but ... I will comment there are indeed, more than two healing items in game. There are indeed casts, multiple types of bandages, ointments, etc.

However, currently they are largely textile based, so if you are Orc side you might not realize. Need to ponder some more rustic things Orcs can use too.

Also, if weapons get multiple damage types, I'll want critters to bite and slash.

in the past, Orcs have made use of maggot therapy to clean out infected wounds. Could also add in cave spider silk or something to substitute some of the textile items.

[MrT2G]

Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).

short-blade users also get this benefit. Daggers are are pierce/stab, and longknives are slash.

In my experience, all short-blades pierce.

[Songweaver]

Note: Positive numbers suggest better effectiveness against that armor-type, while negative numbers suggest less effectiveness against that armor-type.

Code: Select all

//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Mail
//5 - Scale
//6 - Plate
{ 0, 0, -1, -2, -3, -3}, // chop -- axes
{-1, 1, 0, 1, -2, -2}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2, -3, -3}, // slash -- swords

Note how axes(chop) is categorically worse than swords(slash) against leather/cloth/hardened leather, and bludgeon is even worse off. With the armor/charts/weapons in-game, bludgeon's just worse than long-blade.

Maybe it'll be overpowered later, but...for right now, unless I'm reading these numbers wrong, than given the same attack speed/damage, how exactly is using an axe -or- a bludgeon better than a sword against 9/10ths of the armor people are wearing(the superior armor, might-I-add), leathers?

Let's talk numbers here, people.

I think you're reading it wrong, which isn't really your fault. These charts have always been counter-intuitive. Based solely on these three weapons:

Against cloth armor, swords are superior, then axes, then bludgeons are the worst. But, who uses cloth armor?

Against leather armor (oiled leather falls into this category, and is one of the two best armors in the game right now), bludgeon and swords are equally good, while axes are a little worse.

Against hardened leather armor (segmented leather, in the game), slash and bludgeon are equally effective, and axes are a little worse.

Against metal armor (the other best armor type in the game, especially against mobs, which primarily use the same armor chart as swords), bludgeons are far superior than axes and swords, which both kind of blow.

You want to be able to take all of those numbers across the board (ignore scale/plate armor, they don't exist and don't need to exist), add them together for each weapon type, and get a 0 value. Then, you shift advantages around to make each weapon type have a useful niche.

Like I mathed back on page one of this thread, it's currently kind of way off. And axes blow. Swords are actually pretty good. Bludgeon is a little too good.

For frame of reference on what I'm suggesting:

I'd suggest making a few changes and simplifying, with the goal to be something like below (where each major damnoun has equal strengths and weaknesses). Note that I'm ignoring scale/plate -- I don't think that you need these (just better quality mail/metal to represent the better types of metal armor), and they will certainly break the game as-is.

//1 - Heavy and/or Padded Cloth & Similar
//2 - Leather
//3 - Hardened Leather
//4 - Metal Armor
//1 2 3 4
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // stab -- small-blades, knives, daggers
{ 0, 0, -1, 1}, // pierce -- polearms, arrows
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // chop -- axes
{0, 0, 1, -1}, // bludgeon -- clubs, flails
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // slash -- swords
{ 1, 1, 0, -2}, // lash -- whips
{ 0, -1, -2, 3}, // burn - blowtorches, flamethrowers, etc.
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // regular arrows
{ 0, -1, -1, -2}, // broadhead arrows - +2 armour to all, +4 bleed
{ 0, 0, 0, 0} // bodkin arrows - -2 armour to all


Bolded is mine. This wording's always been very confusing to me. Does your opponent get +2AC vs broadhead arrows, in addition to the armor chart? If so, I'd make broadhead be four 0s across the board.

Also note that this change might demand upping the inherent AC of oquality+ metal/mail armor by a single point.

:

[Eru]

I don't think anyone is for nerfing Bludgeon damage into the ground, we're to balance it out with the other weapon types. Currently Bludgeons are the only weapon type that I know of that can affect your effectiveness -during- combat with concussions/winded. You can survive a few ticks bleeding and still win a fight outright before you need to sit and bind the wound but winded slows down your delay timer until you regain your balance and concussion is a somatic effect that sometimes reduces your skill levels when you fail willpower check effectively making you easier to hit, and making it harder for you to land a hit.

[Ceredir]

In my experience, all short-blades pierce.

Fixed that a couple months back. Unless it reverted.. *checks* nnnope, still slashing on those longknives.

Scripts to change damage type dynamically certainly are quite easy to do, could even randomize them per hit or do something similarly funky BUT... for reasons I said before, not going to do that unless an Elder asks, because I do not really see the need.

[Songweaver]

Concussion and bleeding both have distinct, but comparable advantages, IMO. Concussions reduce combat effectiveness, whereas bleeding increases DPS and reduces opponent healing. Bleeding is certainly more effective in PVE, and in PVP, both are typically enough to cause your opponent to attempt retreat unless the numerical odds are certainly in their favor.

If anything, the game could use more of a variety of effects and variability. Concussion only stands out because the other weapons lack anything that makes them unique against one another, besides their damage noun.

[Droll]

I don't really have an opinion on concussion vs bleeding, but the weapon speeds in game bug me. For some reason short swords and long swords attack at the same speed. Both are slower than axes and hammers, which really doesn't make any sense. They should be faster than top heavy weapons like that. Spears are the only weapon I haven't really used. I don't know how fast they are, or how fast they should be.

[Real]

A handaxe is a very small weapon, which is what's being represented really. They're the light weapons of the bludgeon family, they strike extremely fast and with low damage. > dual smallblades

Believe me, axes are balanced with swords. You pull off a crit with a battleaxe and you get a severe, you pull of a crit with a shortsword and you get a terrible/grievous wound. The speed difference is pretty close, but it balances the axes' lack of ability to go through armor.

Because if you had a super fast armor-piercing weapon, that would be way overpowered regardless of the other parameters.

That's just it though; blunts are based off strength and agility so the stat investment has them running higher dps regardless. A sword guy's dex investment is either going to cost him in strength or speed. When you combine the flat damage bonus off strength with the raw speed of axes and tack on the speed adjustment of agility, it's a pretty damn strong build. The lightest weapons work best on builds with the highest strength, which is a weird trait of the code.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prDjI00A2xk
Reminds me of this guy though. Honestly, they show up and muscle the prison guard, then haul this guy up out of a well with a rope and go "You work for me now.", what a badass lol we wish our characters were that cool.

Maybe give dex some combat relevance, or else give swords some extra deflect or +2 vs +1.

And warhammers? I always imagined them as 1 1/2 handers anyway, like a bastard sword. So higher-than-greatsword speed doesn't seem too crazy.

Spears work just like they should, slow, measured strikes that do very high damage with nice accuracy. Poke someone in the eye and the results will be...horrific. They're reliable and since you're just pumping agility for the cap it counteracts the general slowness.

[Jarlhen]

Top heavy weapons are going to be slower than swords. Historically that's one of their main disadvantages, they're unwieldy. You strike once and then you have to pull back at greater effort than with a sword. Parrying with things like warhammers and maces is also very difficult. Mostly because they're very short, the balance is off and it makes returning for a strike more difficult. The benefits come from them being cheap, easy to strike with and are capable of damage through heavier armors. More than anything, their reason for existing was the latter part, as anti-armor weapons.

There are two-handed versions of both maces and warhammers. Traditionally they are short one-handed weapons, but historically two-handed versions have also been used quite frequently. Often with different names as well. Truth is that while we have the mace/warhammer weapons we don't have that many sources on how they were used. But if you get to compare an authentic mace vs an authentic sword you'd notice the difference quite quickly.

[biral]

I'd just like to speak my mind. Lately ALMOST everyone is screaming REALISM over game mechanics and theme. I know someone quoted somewhere that the characters in this setting are NOT your average joe today. They were much hardier and capable of a lot more. So please tell me why people cannot strike as fast with LIGHT-bludgeons and why you're all crying and throwing your toys out the cot so that admins can nerf bludgeons wind AND light-bludgeons speed? Jarlhen, your shortswords aren't going to get anymore better than lightbludgeons, you WON'T be some samurai/knight. You will get players who can wear you down faster with their nimble weapons. This is a GAME where NOTHING at -all- in it screams realism, so please, stop trying to strike the ball home with realism on bludgeons.

Vikings used light bludgeons, tell me about how their weapons shouldn't have killed anyone who was wielding anything else?

[Mithrandur]

Another thing to consider is that Bludgeons are the only weapon class that gets damage selection: axes (slash/cut) mace (crush).

short-blade users also get this benefit. Daggers are are pierce/stab, and longknives are slash.
Multiple damage types are something I'd like to see on all the weapon skills. Swords could get narrow-bladed thrusting weapons that deal stab damage and falchions that deal chop damage. Spear users could also get halberds that deal chop damage, though I'm not sure if the halberd is a canon weapon for SOI.

Technically, just about every weapon sort has at least one alternative weapon that does a different damage type except -maybe- swords. They may not be the -best- but they can actually make for slightly-useful weapons and some even viable alternatives if made from high-quality materials.

Scythes for polearm do cutting/slashing I think.
Pickaxes for bludgeons can even do pierce.

In fact almost any tool can be used as a weapon I believe, and personally I'd love to see more of these impromptu weapons being made use of in game, though it'll probably never happen because they aren't codedly 'the best' which is all anyone ever seems to want.