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The glorious Twinking thread!

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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Gobbo » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:53 pm

Oh touching on watching. You can watch buck's so they can't hide or sneak away. This gives you time to hide and ambush. Chase them and rinse-repeat. No wasted arrows and no Sam fisher deer.

I mean part of this feels gamey and I think this falls in the category that needs clarification. However spear hunting use to be the way all hunting was done and chasing prey down is what humans are built for.

So I'm on the fence whether I can keep hunting auto-flee ninja deer by watch/hide/ambush/chase/watch/hide/ambush/chase/etc. If deer were fixed to be reasonably stealthy rather than invisible I probably wouldn't use this method anyways.

Like songweaver said, Mobs are the biggest twinks of them all.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Justanothacivy » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:00 pm

Gobbo I use watch like that myself, I mean if you are watching something actively... it couldn't just disappear on you unless it was able to break the line of sight, yeah? I wouldn't worry about that to much, it what it was designed for originally.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Brian » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:08 pm

I think the problem with re-hiding when you've already engaged someone is that it's akin to force emoting with someone. They see the messages for you hiding, they saw that you were there before, and then you're gone. You're deciding that they can't see you any longer to the point where you're able to get a highly advantageous drop on them. They might decide that they actually could see you, but you're taking that away from them and forcing them to agree with your take on events. Maybe they would search you if you were already engaged, or maybe they would watch you, except that combat doesn't allow you to watch. I don't think it would make you so oblivious though that a combatant that you had seen would suddenly disappear only to reappear as they spear you through the guts.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Songweaver » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:25 pm

All true, but for that the pre-requisite for being able to watch someone in a combat situation is the same for being able to hide in the first place.

If I type stop (because I'm not being targeted by anyone), and then hide ... and then you type stop (because you're not being attacked by anyone), and then watch me, that's an evenly balanced system. It makes sense that you can't watch someone while you're being actively attacked by someone with a deadly weapon, in the same way that it makes sense that you can't crouch down and try to get the drop on someone when someone else is trying to actively attack you with a deadly weapon.

In short, the system works in the exact same way for the hider as the watcher. The 'hide echo' that you're worried about is there to help folks be able to react to it before it's too late, not to force emote anyone.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Brian » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:29 pm

I mean more if it was a 2 vs 1 situation where the one continues to fight the other and the 2nd partner drops out to hide and get the drop on the lone combatant again. If it was 1 vs 1...well, if you typed stop and your opponent agreed and then you hid and they didn't know the commands or react quickly enough I'd still think it was pretty questionable.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Songweaver » Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:33 pm

Yes, I suppose I'm thinking of this in terms of large PVP battles, or PVE fights vs difficult monsters (like trolls or spider queens or dire bears). In a two-on-one PVP fight, it's really overkill, and certainly makes a little less sense. Like I said, it's really only beneficial to do when you're up against something with very high defensive skills; otherwise, you're better off not giving up the free swing or two that is required to hide.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Eru » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:36 am

Songweaver wrote:On another note, there is no cap to how many times you can raise a single skill in a given day. The timer is all that matters.


Does the timer reset if you log out or does it carry over?
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Songweaver » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:11 am

The timer carries over.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Mithrandur » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:24 pm

Eru wrote:
Songweaver wrote:On another note, there is no cap to how many times you can raise a single skill in a given day. The timer is all that matters.


Does the timer reset if you log out or does it carry over?



You can also raise multiple skills at a time (not sure if there's a cap on how many exactly) but it means you can get absolutely amazing amounts of skill gains early on until timers become so lengthy that your growth levels off.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Gobbo » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:40 pm

I remember hearing back on PRPI that it was 3 skills could gain at the same time in a three hour period. I have no idea if that's accurate.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Songweaver » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:14 pm

The timer carries over when you log back in.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby crayon » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:06 pm

Brian wrote:I think the problem with re-hiding when you've already engaged someone is that it's akin to force emoting with someone. They see the messages for you hiding, they saw that you were there before, and then you're gone. You're deciding that they can't see you any longer to the point where you're able to get a highly advantageous drop on them. They might decide that they actually could see you, but you're taking that away from them and forcing them to agree with your take on events. Maybe they would search you if you were already engaged, or maybe they would watch you, except that combat doesn't allow you to watch. I don't think it would make you so oblivious though that a combatant that you had seen would suddenly disappear only to reappear as they spear you through the guts.


I don't see the correlation between rehiding and godmoding/force-emoting in the slightest. In order to rehide, you have to be free of combat, for one, which requires that the soon-to-be-recipient of the ambushing is otherwise engaged and doesn't manage to swap targets onto you before the hide goes off. There's a significant delay on hide that varies in length depending on a few factors which provides them ample opportunity to prevent the second ambush attempt. The 'success' of the 'hide' may be codedly automatic, in the sense that they can't see you. The success of the ambush, however, the second time, is still predicated on your hide and sneak skills, which means the ambush roll is what's determining whether or not the defender 'sees' it coming. I would actually kind of encourage people to use those sorts of ambush tactics in larger group fights, because not only does it add another dimension to an otherwise simplistic and moderately dull combat, but it's the only way for a stealth-based combat character to really shine. It's common knowledge that having hide and sneak higher than 10 is pretty pointless, unless you're making clever use of ambush. Also keep in mind that if you're wearing respectable armor, it's probably chopping your hide/sneak skills off at the knees anyhow, so in order to really make effective use out of this tactic, you have to be less protected by armor.

Songweaver wrote:If you are in combat with any of my characters, you can type 'sit', and then type 'teleport <direction>' to escape them. Ignore the fail echo, it takes about 30 seconds to work.

If you are in combat with any of my characters, you can type 'set frantic', then disconnect from your MUD client and wait two minutes before logging back in. All of your skills will permanently be increased to Legendary.


Songweaver wrote:Here's another one: GUARDing the character that you are attacking in melee combat will cause you to save that target from yourself, and in a philosophical sort of way, doesn't that mean that you'll be saving yourself from yourself?


Quit spilling the beans, Songweaver. You're giving away all of the l33t tacticks for free. :i:

Gobbo wrote:I find there is just so many intricacies and hidden secrets to the mud and its code. So here is a place to bring out your inner twink and contribute little pieces of information that might help less experienced players compete with veterans.


There is no maximum number of concurrent skill increase cooldowns, and the base timer tends to run roughly 2-3 hours depending on your stats and probably some other things, which is one of the reasons a lot of people try to claim that Dexterity isn't as awful as it is (it's totally awful outside of crafting skill caps), but as the base timer's always going to be at least an hour and a half or so even under ideal circumstances, the real determining factor in how well you can raise your skills is tied more to regularity and following some sort of schedule than anything else, but given that you'll never know when you've gained a skill point for sure, usually, it's good odds that trying too hard will lead to hours and hours of wasted time being a grindfest twink. Unless you're just really good at it. Because there is no maximum, you can actually sort of come up with a cycle of training exercises that you can engage in in repetition, but it gets really, really boring.

Bizarrely and likely unexpectedly to most, high strength is best suited to using small, fast-hitting weapons and high agility is best suited to using big, two-handed weapons, setting skill caps aside. Some aspects of the combat engine are silly, and that's one of them. Significantly high strength stats allow you to dual-wield bigger weapons, or to wield two-handed weapons in one hand, but also, and more importantly, give a really frigging weird +1 to damage that gets calculated after armor and other reductions. Given that this is per-hit, it's fantastic on fast-hitting weapons and horrible on slow-hitting weapons. Agility increases your attack speed, which itself has a base rate dependant on your weapon type and size. For likely a variety of solid reasons, there's a hard cap on attack speed to keep you from attacking ridiculously fast, but by its very existence, it makes agility almost useless on weapons that already attack pretty quickly -- it's insanely good on weapons that normally strike slowly, though, because you get a lot of big hits a lot faster.

Little known fact, gear is more important to the outcome of combat than even a sizable gap between character skill levels, which really makes the amount of effort we put into things like twinking our skills up seem fairly silly, doesn't it?

Gobbo wrote:Another tip is if you have a loaded firearm (bow) and have 'set autofire' enabled, when you are attacked you will get one pretty accurate shot off at your attacker before melee is engaged. If you one hand a crossbow and dual wield with a longsword I have found this a potent combination for getting the first shot in combat without debilitating yourself for future rounds.


Another variant of this, which I assume probably, or at least can, work with bows is to use the above tactic in conjunction with fleeing in order to get off multiple opening salvos, effectively 'kiting' NPCs in combat. This is especially handy for dealing with especially scary singleton mobs.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Matt » Sun May 03, 2015 5:17 pm

I don't get why hiding in combat is bad form. If everyone's engaged and I'm not and no one's able to keep an eye on me? I'm going to blind side everyone I can until someone stops me. It's just like a fight IRL. If you've ever been out numbered by just 1 person you know that person with just walk around trying to cheap shot you. Glad I happened upon this obscure OOC thread post to find out that's not allowed and will make me lose RPP...
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby radioactivejesus » Sun May 03, 2015 6:35 pm

Matt wrote:I don't get why hiding in combat is bad form. If everyone's engaged and I'm not and no one's able to keep an eye on me? I'm going to blind side everyone I can until someone stops me. It's just like a fight IRL. If you've ever been out numbered by just 1 person you know that person with just walk around trying to cheap shot you. Glad I happened upon this obscure OOC thread post to find out that's not allowed and will make me lose RPP...

just watch those IMCF fights online and they will confirm that this shit happens all the time. Most of the people who get taken out end up being dropped when one guy is grappling them, and then someone else just rushes in and hits them in the back of the head full-force.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby tehkory » Sun May 03, 2015 7:26 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
Matt wrote:I don't get why hiding in combat is bad form. If everyone's engaged and I'm not and no one's able to keep an eye on me? I'm going to blind side everyone I can until someone stops me. It's just like a fight IRL. If you've ever been out numbered by just 1 person you know that person with just walk around trying to cheap shot you. Glad I happened upon this obscure OOC thread post to find out that's not allowed and will make me lose RPP...

just watch those IMCF fights online and they will confirm that this shit happens all the time. Most of the people who get taken out end up being dropped when one guy is grappling them, and then someone else just rushes in and hits them in the back of the head full-force.

I personally dislike it because it's one of those areas where player talent takes over for character skill. Good combat -players- should have an advantage, but I prefer an environment where character skill's the primary reason behind a character's success. I don't disagree with Brian's arguments, either, but they're not my primary concern.

None of this is major, ground-shaking stuff, so I wouldn't get my jimmies rustled too hard, Matt. It's not as if Icarus didn't say about seventeen times that players are going to be warned ahead before they're punished.

This isn't a major announcement of policy, it's a minor clarification about a form of could-be-twinking that is 100% concerned purely with a way one person can get an edge over another in player-killing situations.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Matt » Mon May 04, 2015 10:02 am

There are a thousand other ways to get an advantage by code as well. Making statements on a specific thing out of no where as being super against non-existent RoE is a little disheartening. How about make it so you can only ambush once every 2 mins code wise? If you wanted to make it a 'rule'. Then you literally can't do it by code.

But really I think it's super realistic. That's one of the advantages of having more people in a real fight. I'm fighting Billy, really really trying to not let him stab me cause Billy is a bad man with a sword... oh crap, his friend Bobby stuck a spear in my back while I was distracted. Now Billy and Bobby go to Timmy's opponent, stab him in the back. Etc etc. That's a fight.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby cfelch » Tue May 05, 2015 6:46 am

I don't think anyone has complained about just being outnumbered.
That is a realistic situation.

But if you are in melee combat, you are not going to back off to find a hiding spot, and then hope the other combatants just happen to wander close enough for you to get the drop on them.
That is unrealistic.

You are proposing that simply being distracted by another opponent is grounds enough to be able to get the hiding attack bonuses again.
Unless you are leading them on a merry chase through the woods (or something similar) I call BS.

My fix for this is simple.... No ambushing of those who are present in the room when you hide.
Still leaves you open to someone sneaking off, then sneaking back in, but that would at least represent having circled around.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Tepes » Fri May 08, 2015 1:13 pm

In mass battles, re-hiding shouldn't be complained about.

Use watch if you notice a sneaky jerk.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Nimrod » Fri May 08, 2015 1:57 pm

Hiding suggests you are behind a tree or some such. Out of sight of the victim. Hence, I will be adding a bit to the ambush command.

Ambush assumes that you are the one advancing on the victim, so the victim would not be rushing forward, the attacker would. Hence, I will be adding a check to your dex to see if you would possibly fall or your weapon would be caught up in the brush and dropped in your rush to attack. Combat will still be engaged, but now, instead of ambush being a zero loss tactic for the ambusher, there will be a real possibility of your ambush failing on you and giving the victim a bit of advantage on a random basis.

Re-hiding during combat, as Brian says, is forcing your victim.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Tepes » Fri May 08, 2015 2:12 pm

Lol. As someone who is a sneaky bastard IRL, and has actually used said tactics in a real-enough battle, you can totally sneak around people in a fight. IF they're too focused on other people, they take a sword/knife/spear to the back of the head.

It's really that simple. But whatever.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby cfelch » Fri May 08, 2015 2:21 pm

Sometimes realism needs to give for the sake of playability.
Especially if that something is combat in an RPI.
Stop making combat the only focus.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Nimrod » Fri May 08, 2015 2:29 pm

*Snicker* Before anyone gets their panties bunched up, I was kidding about the code changes.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Mavinero » Sat May 09, 2015 1:06 pm

Nimrod wrote:Hiding suggests you are behind a tree or some such. Out of sight of the victim. Hence, I will be adding a bit to the ambush command.

Ambush assumes that you are the one advancing on the victim, so the victim would not be rushing forward, the attacker would. Hence, I will be adding a check to your dex to see if you would possibly fall or your weapon would be caught up in the brush and dropped in your rush to attack. Combat will still be engaged, but now, instead of ambush being a zero loss tactic for the ambusher, there will be a real possibility of your ambush failing on you and giving the victim a bit of advantage on a random basis.

Re-hiding during combat, as Brian says, is forcing your victim.



Falling and tripping though, that'd be agi. Perhaps a check for Dex and Agi both, if you're going to move forward with this idea?
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Songweaver » Sat May 09, 2015 1:45 pm

Nimrod wrote:*Snicker* Before anyone gets their panties bunched up, I was kidding about the code changes.
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Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

Postby Cola » Thu May 14, 2015 8:46 pm

Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

<block>
Postby Icarus » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:09 pm

As an honest note, and giving the benefit of the doubt, myself and Frigga will post a list of DOs and DON'Ts regarding what we consider abuse and twinkery. Perhaps standards have not been explicitly outlined, and if they need to be myself and the rest of staff are happy to provide guidance.

Expect this within a week, and please harass me if I don't get it posted.
</block>


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