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Armoury

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Re: Armoury

Postby Brian » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:30 pm

Right, and simplicity is always better. When I think about it further, the only areas where I can see there being a great difference would be in an upper body armor that either covers the arms and torso or just the torso, and possibly lower body armor that covers the thighs and lower legs, or just the thighs. I like those because it provides some degree of options for players in terms of cost and weight, without making too many crafts (I hope). I think my hoped for armor slots would be these:

Full Upper Body (hauberk): covers torso, neck, upper arms, lower arms
Partial Upper Body (vest): covers torso, neck
Full Lower Body (leggings): covers upper legs, lower legs
Partial lower body (skirt?): covers upper legs
Boots: covers feet
Gauntlets/Gloves: covers hands
Helm: covers head
Full Helm: covers head, face
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Re: Armoury

Postby Throttle » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:34 pm

ARPI/PRPI had vests and hauberks that differed in coverage, but the vests were kind of terrible so nobody really used them. I think there would have to be a more tangible disadvantage to superior coverage than just weight, like a full helmet might give partial cover for the eyes but also a gigantic penalty to archery and any other perception-based skills there might be.

Maybe leather hauberks give a penalty to sneak and hide so the vests serve a purpose for scouts and hunters, otherwise everyone will just want hauberks. I don't know if it's really worth dividing armor up into sub-groups like that, though, as it adds little more than padding out the list of crafts.

By the way, how are the skills laid out here? Have we got 'armorcrafting' or are we dealing with leatherworking and metalworking as separate skills?
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Re: Armoury

Postby Brian » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:55 pm

Throttle wrote:ARPI/PRPI had vests and hauberks that differed in coverage, but the vests were kind of terrible so nobody really used them. I think there would have to be a more tangible disadvantage to superior coverage than just weight, like a full helmet might give partial cover for the eyes but a gigantic penalty to archery and any other perception-based skills there might be.

Maybe leather hauberks give a penalty to sneak and hide so the vests serve a purpose for scouts and hunters, otherwise everyone will just want hauberks. I don't know if it's really worth dividing armor up into sub-groups like that, though, as it adds little more than padding out the list of crafts.

By the way, how are the skills laid out here? Have we got 'armorcrafting' or are we dealing with leatherworking and metalworking as separate skills?


Good points there. Ultimately it should be a matter of how much utility are we going to get out of a piece of work? Staffers are a valuable resource. If everyone is just going to use one kind of armor why bother taking the time to implement the other? The only thing I can think of is expanding on the skill restriction ideas; for instance, maybe the vest type allows unimpeded archery, while the type with sleeves applies a penalty. There are lots of possibilities there, but it also runs the question of whether it's getting too technical and worth the effort of trying to apply these uniformly and in a way that makes sense.

As other side notes:

- No plate armor please. Not at all. Isn't in Tolkien, isn't necessary.

- Also (and maybe I'm just more militant about this kind of thing, I can see it really being unpopular) all armour, even the lightest stuff, should impair the hiding and the sneaking. With the heavier metal armors it should be an absolute no no, and for the lighter armors I would want it to be a definite hinderance, enough that it would make you consider not using armor because you'd be safer without it than with it. IF things get structured as I hope and combat becomes more about your skills than your gear, this wouldn't be as big a deal either.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Emilio » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:34 pm

When you, guys, talk about ARPI, I don't know what you're talking about.

  • What are the effects of weight in armor?
  • Do you lose speed and agility?
  • Do you get exhausted sooner than wearing normal clothing?

Can any of you give me a link? I'm getting a lot of garbage in Google search.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:01 pm

Emilio wrote:When you, guys, talk about ARPI, I don't know what you're talking about.

Emilio wrote:Can any of you give me a link? I'm getting a lot of garbage in Google search.


That is shorthand for Atonement RPI. This was a Sci Fi game based on an interstellar transport ship where people woke up from cryosleep and found an alien lifeform that turned human DNA into drones and bug monsters (Alpha), then crashed into a moon colony struggling for survival in the remains of a Utopian society (Beta), and then launched back into space on a journey through a serious of other planets (Final). It was story-based and the plot moved the setting of play about once a year. When the story completed, they shut it down.

Its codebase started with the code from here (SOI), was heavily modified to re-balance combat code, add variables, and the other things we're talking about. That codebase was loaded (with all the building from ARPI Beta) to form a new game called Parallel RPI. That codebase (without any of the building in it) was then brought back here so that we can use it in the new incarnation of SOI and take advantage of the updates.

We have players that know the old SOI code, ones that knew Attonement RPI, and ones who play now on Parallel RPI, and all combinations thereof, which is why people are referencing experiences on these other games as they talk here.

There's no link because when the game ended the site was shut down. Not sure what exists for it, now.

Emilio wrote:[list][*]What are the effects of weight in armor?


Weight of armor is a major component of encumberance.

Emilio wrote:[*]Do you lose speed and agility?
[*]Do you get exhausted sooner than wearing normal clothing?


Your Strength allows you to be Unencumbered, Lightly Encumbered, Heavily Encumbered, and Critically Encumbered with differing amounts of weight. Armor weight is a major component of what a solider is carrying.

If you are more than lightly encumbered, you lose all ability to Sneak or Hide.

Your encumberance impacts how quickly you get exhausted. You can get exhausted in combat or by moving from room to room. Someone who is encumbered has to stop and rest, can't hide, and can't run away.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:22 pm

Throttle wrote: Each item that needs something like different limb coverage or a material that shouldn't be available to others (so that you can't make a linen chainmail or something) would need its own individual craft. You can reduce it a bit without sleeves, which I agree with, but it'd still be a whole extra set of crafts for each classification of armor.


It is a single craft, not set of crafts... you build clothing and armor in components - vest, sleeves, etc - and then have an assembly craft for each finished product. You could have one to "assemble vest" and then "assemble hauberk" which includes vest and sleeves, and so on.

Whether anyone would want a vest when they could have a hauberk remains a better question.

Throttle wrote:
So, brainstorm up more levels on the low-end of your scale.


I don't really understand what you mean by levels of armor. You are still using the variable system, right? I'm looking at a system similar to ARPI's where there's only really one object for each type of armor and then the variables determine the properties (basically just weight and durability). You can add variables for appearance if you want, but it's still just going to be 'a $armorstyle, $leathertype leather hauberk' or whatever. Do you want examples of variables?


The levels on ARPI were actually Cloth, Metal, Kevlar, Ceramic, Powered.

First, we need to brainstorm what the effective tiers are. What is cosmetic and what denotes a different eschelon? People have mentioned so far: padded or quilted, heavy leather, boiled leather, leather with metal additions (studs? lamellar?), metal ring, metal chain. I would want good discussion over what is fitting for our setting.

Then, yes, variables would also come out of that. If it wasn't an level, it would be a variation in a variable.

Throttle wrote:By the way, how are the skills laid out here? Have we got 'armorcrafting' or are we dealing with leatherworking and metalworking as separate skills?


Still working. You'll see it announced soon.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Emilio » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:14 pm

Can we have layers of clothing? Like wearing a pair of boots over socks, a loincloth under the pants, a long-sleeved shirt under the hauberk and a short fur coat over the shoulders.
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Re: Armoury

Postby tehkory » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:02 am

Emilio wrote:Can we have layers of clothing? Like wearing a pair of boots over socks, a loincloth under the pants, a long-sleeved shirt under the hauberk and a short fur coat over the shoulders.

These layers/wearlocs exist in Parallel's current code, as does concealing worn items.

I'm not certain if the version SoI's using has it.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Throttle » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:33 am

Layers aren't part of the basic ARPI engine, so it depends which one they're using. The guy who implemented it gave me the impression that it wasn't terribly difficult, though.
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Re: Armoury

Postby tehkory » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:39 am

Emilio wrote:When you, guys, talk about ARPI, I don't know what you're talking about.

  • What are the effects of weight in armor?
  • Do you lose speed and agility?
  • Do you get exhausted sooner than wearing normal clothing?

Can any of you give me a link? I'm getting a lot of garbage in Google search.

Throttle/Octavius are also forgetting/not mentioning another relevant part of the codebase. Again, I'll blatantly use my current Parallel PC.

When you type info, you get the following:
When in combat, your mode is Defensive.
You are currently lightly encumbered.
By virtue of your equipment, you are unarmoured and your movement not at all hindered.
You are standing.
You add overwatch for targets manually, and take aim at targets that are easy to hit.
If you come under fire, you will try to automatically take cover.
You walk when you travel.

They've been mentioning the italicized part, but forgetting the bolded part.

You wear a russet-scaled, titon-plated, leather hauberk about your body.

You wear a pair of russet-scaled, titon-plated, leather sleeves on your arms.

info

When in combat, your mode is Defensive.
You are currently lightly encumbered.
By virtue of your equipment, you are lightly armoured and your movement faintly hindered.
You are standing.
You add overwatch for targets manually, and take aim at targets that are easy to hit.
If you come under fire, you will try to automatically take cover.
You walk when you travel.


I toss more armor on, and the effects continue to grow, one piece at a time.

By virtue of your equipment, you are well armoured and your movement lightly hindered.


More and more, until...


By virtue of your equipment, you are well armoured and your movement noticably hindered.

I can't get it to go past that, of course, but there it is. Mabe a coder can give more details on it.

That said, you'd have to get a coder to tell you what exactly that means, I suspect.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Throttle » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:19 am

The levels on ARPI were actually Cloth, Metal, Kevlar, Ceramic, Powered.


Well, cloth was just leather armor really, and ceramic and powered armors were never in the game aside from a few accidental pieces.

If you want multiple different levels within the leather bracket, it's probably best to have them each be specialized for a type of attack rather than just being a ladder of upgrades.

I still think there should be a solid distinction between leather and ringmail here as there frankly needs to be a) fairly sturdy armor accessible to most everyone and b) a reason not to take sneak and hide on every single character.

So then we're probably looking at:

> Plain leather
> Studded leather
> Boiled leather
> Ringmail

You can then have plain leather give only basic protection but also no penalties; studded and boiled each with minor penalties to sneak and hide as well as extra protection against piercing and bludgeoning respectively; and ringmail with a near-debilitating penalty to sneak/hide but decent protection against everything including slashing. Any further sub-categories and it starts to get hard to justify different stats as it really doesn't matter whether it's studs or spikes in the leather, for instance.

Then we're looking at a brainstormed list of crafts comprising:

BASIC
sew leather-hauberk
sew leather-cowl
sew leather-gorget
sew leather-gauntlets
sew leather-breeches
sew leather-boots
boil leather-pieces
stud(?) leather-pieces
assemble armor-pieces
fashion small-shield
forge large-armor-rings
cast armor-studs
forge helmet-segments
assemble half-helmet
cast shield-boss

HEAVY
forge small-armor-rings
fashion large-shield
forge helmet-visor
assemble full-helmet
rivet mesh-segment
fashion chainmail-hauberk
fashion chainmail-vest
fashion chainmail-barding
fashion chainmail-skirt
fashion chainmail-aventail
assemble chainmail-pieces

ADVANCED
forge steel-chainmail-rings
forge steel-helmet-visor
forge steel-helmet-segments
...and some stuff for ornamental leather and such, not important now

So to grab an example:
Code: Select all
          Piercing   Bludgeon   Slashing
Plain        3           3         3
Studded      4           3         3
Boiled       3           4         3
Ringmail     5           5         5
Chainmail    6           6         6


If you want a leather type with 4 against slashing, I guess there's room for scaled leather or something, but I think it'd be fair to have a reason for the expensive, rare weapon type of swords to carry some advantage. Wasn't mail basically invented to deal with swords where lighter armors were just ineffective?

Cloth armor (gambesons) I would designate purely as sparring armor and make a separate class of weapons for sparring weapons against which cloth armor can give AC 8 or something, but pitiful conventional AC.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Drew7uk » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:34 am

Someone give Throttle a crafting job, quick! :D
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:18 am

Throttle wrote: Is extreme scarcity of iron really something that's documented in some way?


A good question worth taking a step back to answer.

I was told that it says in Lord of the Rings that Rohan had to import all of their chainmail from Gondor. If Rohan, which has a much more martial tradition, gets all its chain by import, then the men on Long Lake would likely not be more advanced.

It can be argued that their exposure to the dwarves of Erebor, or proximity for import from the Iron Hills, is more likely than Gondor. Here are the passages on weapons and armor from the Battle of Five Armies.

The dwarves are exceedingly strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves. In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at his side and a round shield slung at his back. Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts. Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron, and their faces were grim.


The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them. As soon as the host of their enemies was dense in the valley, they sent against it a shower of arrows, and each flickered as it fled as if with stinging fire. Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged. The yells were deafening. The rocks were stained black with goblin blood. Just as the goblins were recovering from the onslaught and the elf-charge was halted, there rose from across the valley a deep-throated roar. With cries of "Moria!" and "Dain, Dain!" the dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in, wielding their mattocks, upon the other side; and beside them came the men of the Lake with long swords. Panic came upon the Goblins; and even as they turned to meet this new attack, the elves charged again with renewed numbers. Already many of the goblins were flying back down the river to escape from the trap: and many of their own wolves were turning upon them and rending the dead and the wounded. Victory seemed at hand, when a cry rang out on the heights above. Goblins had scaled the Mountain from the other side and already many were on the slopes above the Gate, and others were streaming down recklessly, heedless of those that fell screaming from cliff and precipice, to attack the spurs from above. Each of these could be reached by paths that ran down from the main mass of the Mountain in the centre; and the defenders had too few to bar the way for long. Victory now vanished from hope. They had only stemmed the first onslaught of the black tide.

Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill. Suddenly there was a great shout, and from the Gate came a trumpet call. They had forgotten Thorin! Part of the wall, moved by levers, fell outward with a crash into the pool. Out leapt the King under the Mountain, and his companions followed him. Hood and cloak were gone; they were in shining armour, and red light leapt from their eyes. In the gloom the great dwarf gleamed like gold in a dying fire.

Rocks were buried down from on high by the goblins above; but they held on. leapt down to the falls' foot, and rushed forward to battle. Wolf and rider fell or fled before them. Thorin wielded his axe with mighty strokes, and nothing seemed to harm him.


So, the dwarves had iron helmets and iron boots, but no mention that they had chain or armor at the ready for a mass equipping.

Thorin is the only one noted to emerge in armor, and it is noted that his imperviousness was a special thing as a result.

Dwarves had two-handed mattocks and short broadswords.
Men had longswords.
Orcs had scimitars.
Elves had spears, bows, and swords.
Wolves turned on the wounded orcs.

It notes the dwarves all came with iron, but the Orcs with Bolg all came with wargs and steel.

Not saying how much that matters, but it is what the Hobbit says.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Emilio » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:30 am

Thanks for your informative comments in the Armoury. :D
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Re: Armoury

Postby Frigga » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:41 am

If you want more than three grades of metal, you can split the crappy iron into actual re-smelted scrap and then bog iron which is historically fairly decent -- it literally fueled the viking age. It'd be feasible to say that the deposits along the River Running are of particularly impure ore, of course. The scrap can be truly awful and not really serviceable for weapons and armor (quality modifier of like 20%) so that you limit armor creep, whereas it'll suffice for non-combat purposes like lanterns and hinges and whatnot.


I'd actually pondered on the bog-iron thing in the past. And, I like the whole make it have a low quality modifier idea.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Letters » Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:09 am

I never liked the idea of ringmail, mostly since it is mostly a construction of fantasy games, rather than a real thing.

It's my understanding that properly treated leather can deflect a sword stroke. SoI leather armour has always seemed to take the form of something barely more than a step up from rawhide, however. As for cloth armour, there is presumably a decent reason that it was used throughout history, from the linen cuirasses of antiquity to medieval gambesons. This was stuff often worn by professional soldiers.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Throttle » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:14 pm

Ringmail is a bit fictional, but it's really more of a representation of the myriad variations of "bits of metal sewn onto leather but not enough to fully cover it." Doing it accurately would be quite impractical, especially with the variable system which is great for aesthetical variation of a single type of item but not very good for many different types of armor with different stats.

It's really complex and labor-intensive to sit and input all the item's variable strings and syntax, especially for the associated crafts. It was easier to have a wide range of armor styles in the old-fashioned system where you could simply write a static description and input the few relevant object attributes. SOI had every imaginable type of armor, but few of them were craftable so people mostly wanted the uncraftable stuff due to its rarity (and, granted, its tendency to be a bit too good).

Ultimately it's a matter of preference and it's entirely possible to make a lot of different armor styles, so it'll be up to Icarus. My recommendation is still to stick with few but well-defined and balanced armor types, partly for playability reasons and partly for whatever poor soul has to make the crafts and objects.

As for leather vs. metal armor, the thing about having everyone in cloth and leather armors is that it's really boring. It's the same reason military clans tend not to require that all soldiers of the same classification use the same weaponry even though this has been the case with damn near every military since the Roman empire -- it would be really dull and hinder player freedom greatly.

It's also very hard to deal with a realistic armor system in terms of game mechanics, which is why basically no game has ever done it. You almost have to design the system so that a character's choice of armor depends on their chosen combat style rather than their wealth and heritage or whatever usually determined what armor people historically wore. There's really no consistency whatsoever between a MUD's combat code and actual real-life combat, and people who wore cloth and leather armor in real life did so because they didn't get struck a dozen times every time they engaged in battle.

People tend to play games expecting their warriors to wear some kind of heavy armor, not a linen gambeson or a leather vest. They're more likely to be satisfied with a lower level of armor if it's because they've chosen to play a scout and that's what scouts wear, for instance, than to be stuck forever with what in gaming terms is hardly any armor just because it's more historically accurate. It is still a fantasy setting and a computer game, and it's often a mutually exclusive choice between accurate realism and good playability, with mechanical practicality a relevant factor as well. The acquisition of nice equipment is a surprisingly strong motivator for a lot of players, right up there with raising skills.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Emilio » Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:49 pm

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Re: Armoury

Postby tehkory » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:48 pm

Hood and cloak were gone; they were in shining armour, and red light leapt from their eyes. In the gloom the great dwarf gleamed like gold in a dying fire.


Octavius wrote:
So, the dwarves had iron helmets and iron boots, but no mention that they had chain or armor at the ready for a mass equipping.

Thorin is the only one noted to emerge in armor, and it is noted that his imperviousness was a special thing as a result.


You're misreading your own quoting, here I think; unless Tolkien is using the royal we, the company of thirteen dwarves(plus Hobbit) all had armor.

RE: iron vs. steel vs. whatever, the skill of the creator(and probably the race) should probably be more important than materials.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:22 pm

tehkory wrote:You're misreading your own quoting, here I think; unless Tolkien is using the royal we, the company of thirteen dwarves(plus Hobbit) all had armor.


You're correct; I realized it after the fact. It implies that all thirteen had armor, but only Thorin shone like gold.

Doesn't change the point, though - a small group equipping with all the supplies of Erebor was able to have armor, and it was worth mentioning that they did, in contrast to the hundreds of dwarves that came from the Iron Hills, who did not. Tolkien mentioned their iron-shod feet and helmets, and that others were in armor as a special event, implying that even the dwarves came to a battle without full chainmail.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Brian » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:51 pm

Swear there's a line in the Hobbit that says something about the Dwarves coming from Dain's halls being shod in shirts of maille that went down to their knees. I unfortunately don't have a copy of the hobbit to look it up. I'm 98% sure that it's in there though.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:53 pm

Brian wrote:Swear there's a line in the Hobbit that says something about the Dwarves coming from Dain's halls being shod in shirts of maille that went down to their knees. I unfortunately don't have a copy of the hobbit to look it up. I'm 98% sure that it's in there though.


I always thought so, too... that's the quote I went looking for. (At least, I always unambiguously imagined them that way.) I was intending to argue that dwarves would easily have mail. I was surprised when I found this instead.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Brian » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:57 pm

Found it.

Runners came in to report that a host of dwarves had appeared round the eastern spur of the Mountain and was now hastening to Dale. Dain had come. He had hurried on through the night, and so had come upon them sooner than they had expected. Each one of his folk was clad in a hauberk of steel mail that hung to his knees, and his legs were covered with hose of a fine and flexible metal mesh, the secret of whose making was possessed by Dain's people.

The dwarves are exceedingly strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves. In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at his side and a round shield slung at his back. Their beards were forked and plaited and thrust into their belts. Their caps were of iron and they were shod with iron, and their faces were grim. Trumpets called men and elves to arms. Before long the dwarves could be seen coming up the valley at a great pace. They halted between the river and the eastern spur; but a few held on their way, and crossing the river drew near the camp; and there they laid down their weapons and held up their hands in sign of peace. Bard went out to meet them, and with him went Bilbo.


So yes, every one of Dain's warriors was clad in a helmet, shirt and hose of maille, heavy boots, a shield, sword, and mattock. However there is also the line that says the secret of the making of the maille was something known to Dain's people, which could imply that it was perhaps not known by the others present, ie. the lake men and the elves.
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Re: Armoury

Postby Octavius » Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:16 pm

Ahhh, thank you! Embarassing, that it was just tucked up at the end of the paragraph before what I quoted. My apologies. I'm actually relieved that I was wrong... dwarves arriving in mail is what I WANT to be true.

So, to ammend... my previous statement here still holds.

I was told that it says in Lord of the Rings that Rohan had to import all of their chainmail from Gondor. If Rohan, which has a much more martial tradition, gets all its chain by import, then the men on Long Lake would likely not be more advanced.

It can be argued that their exposure to the dwarves of Erebor, or proximity for import from the Iron Hills, is more likely than Gondor.


So, it may be possible to import chainmail from Gondor or the Iron Hills but it will cost as much as a small farm, as Icarus said. Unless Icarus says otherwise, I don't expect to have chainmail-creating crafts in PC hands in a lumber camp for Alpha. They might be there once we move to Laketown-proper. They will almost-certainly be there during Open once the events of the Hobbit pass on our timeline, the dwarves return to Erebor, and likely become a playable race option.

I'm more inclined to aim for metal or leather lamellar options as the high end of Men - for an example, look at King Theoden:
Image

What do you all think about cuirboulli (hard, boiled-leather plates)?
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Re: Armoury

Postby Brian » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:10 pm

This article is pretty informative about the different ways to construct and tan leather armor.

http://www.comitatus.net/pdfs/LEATHERARMOUR.pdf
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