Armor/Weapon Overhaul - Feedback

[Icarus]

We've had minor pRPTs on both sides since the changes came in. How have you guys found them?

[radioactivejesus]

a few issues I have;
segmented leather and oiled leather now offer the same protection level. Greatswords and Warhammers now seem to do the same damage against all armour types.
These things need to be given strengths and weaknesses. Maybe make greatswords +1 vs oiled leather, -1 vs chain, warhammers +1 vs chain -1 vs segmented leather. Oiled leather given higher stealth boosts.

[Icarus]

Just checked. Tasks have been assigned to bring in the next tier of hardened.

[Droll]

1. Thank god for the endurance or whatever its called on mail going up. It was frankly kind of ridiculous having worn stuff after a single spar.

2. I'll echo Radio here: swords and hammers shouldn't be doing the same damage against chain mail. Hammers should remain the no brainer against chain mail. That's how mail worked, great against everything besides blunt force trauma. I don't think it should be as much of a damage difference as it used to be before this balance, but it should be noticeable. If we have another tier of hardened coming IG, then I think that's where the swords advantage should show through, my opinion. Scout armor should just be that, scout armor. Not giving an advantage against anything since it's for scouting and sneaking, not fighting.

3. Just casual observation (re: almost died) wildlife seems more able to do damage when they hit, so that is definitely a good thing. I'm guessing our armor/damage has been reduced a bit overall to keep it from getting ridiculous? I'm ok with that, if that's what happened.

4. Get rid of presence.

[Icarus]

As for weapon v armor type, there /is/ a difference between different types vs different types of damage. It's a bit more subtle than it was before, because before it was absurd. I would say, frankly, it's a lot more subtle, but it is still there.

The thing we did is that everything has /basically/ the same amount of advantages and disadvantages. A spear and an axe are both equally good at something, and equally bad. Generally. There are some exceptions. I think what you guys are noticing most is that raw damage has been equalized. Used to be, sword vs blunt vs spear, gave quite significantly different raw damage. This was less armor giving advantages and disadvantages, and more stuff just having shity numbers.

3. You would be correct that all armor has been nerfed slightly. Damage hasn't been lowered in most cases, simply normalized.

4. Once IG chargen comes live, which is a project we've been hard at work on, prescence will always be 10. Which will make life better.

[Ceredir]

a few issues I have;
segmented leather and oiled leather now offer the same protection level.

They do not. They are close because segmented leather is lower quality tier than oiled leather, which kind of brings them on a similar level, but there is a difference

Greatswords and Warhammers now seem to do the same damage against all armour types.

Worry not - they don't!

These things need to be given strengths and weaknesses. Maybe make greatswords +1 vs oiled leather, -1 vs chain, warhammers +1 vs chain -1 vs segmented leather. Oiled leather given higher stealth boosts.

That is actually (kind of - I won't say which weapon is better against what) how they are set now, with +1 and -1 bonuses/penalties (as opposed to the previous +3/-3, which is actually a MASSIVE difference)

The problem is, again, the compare command, which doesn't really register these adjustments. I'll look into making compare a little smarter in the future.

[radioactivejesus]

4. Once IG chargen comes live, which is a project we've been hard at work on, prescence will always be 10. Which will make life better.

will the people with presence lower than 10 and the people with presence higher than 10 have their stats altered to put everyone on a level playing field?

[Icarus]

If we chose to do that, we'd probably have to knock down everyone who has str over 18, which I doubt folks are eager for. My personal preference is to chalk it up to alpha, but if someone is completely buggered staff would be happy to entertain a request for a modification.

[radioactivejesus]

That is actually (kind of - I won't say which weapon is better against what) how they are set now, with +1 and -1 bonuses/penalties (as opposed to the previous +3/-3, which is actually a MASSIVE difference)

would it be possible to get a general idea of what weapon is better against what made public, since compare isn't working as intended? It might not be obvious to some players

[Icarus]

Sure, let me put that together here for ya.

[Icarus]

This does not take into account durability, skillbonuses, and weight that you might wish to take into account when selecting armor. Armor in italics is currently in development.

Half-rotted Rawhide: Equally protective against all damage except bludgeon, which it is slightly more protected against.

Padded Gambeson: Does not protect well against chop. Protects well against bludgeon. Equally protective when stabbed, pierced, or slashed.

Standard leather: Protects well against bludgeon. Slightly less so against other types of damage.

Segmented Leather: Excellent against chop and bludgeon. Protects well against all other types of damage.

Standard Chainmail: Superior protection against stab and chop. Excellent against pierce, bludgeon, and slash.

Standard Scale: Superior protection against pierce and chop. Excellent against stab, bludgeon, and slash.

Oiled Leather: Excellent against bludgeon. Protects well against all other types of damage.

Cuirbouilli: Superior protection against chop and bludgeon. Excellent against stab, pierce, and slash.

Riveted Chainmail: Superb against stab and chop. Superior protection against other types of damage.

Better Scale: Superb against pierce and chop. Superior protection against other types of damage.

[Droll]

Well, that definitely sorts out the compare issue I was having. Thanks for the info.

Time to start wearing my mail/scale combo soon, I guess.

[Songweaver]

This does not take into account durability, skillbonuses, and weight that you might wish to take into account when selecting armor. Armor in italics is currently in development.

Half-rotted Rawhide: Equally protective against all damage except bludgeon, which it is slightly more protected against.

Padded Gambeson: Does not protect well against chop. Protects well against bludgeon. Equally protective when stabbed, pierced, or slashed.

Standard leather: Protects well against bludgeon. Slightly less so against other types of damage.

Segmented Leather: Excellent against chop and bludgeon. Protects well against all other types of damage.

Standard Chainmail: Superior protection against stab and chop. Excellent against pierce, bludgeon, and slash.

Standard Scale: Superior protection against pierce and chop. Excellent against stab, bludgeon, and slash.

Oiled Leather: Excellent against bludgeon. Protects well against all other types of damage.

Cuirbouilli: Superior protection against chop and bludgeon. Excellent against stab, pierce, and slash.

Riveted Chainmail: Superb against stab and chop. Superior protection against other types of damage.

Better Scale: Superb against pierce and chop. Superior protection against other types of damage.

I charted this out, and it seems rather unbalanced as described. For instance, every armor type is described at being good versus bludgeon. :p

That said, I have no practical experience with the application of these changes. They seem overly complicated, when balance could've probably been fixed with just adjusting a few numbers on the dam-type/armor chart and fixing the affects of a few variables, and all without breaking compare.

That said, fixing dual-wield was a big deal, and I'm very happy to hear that you did that. Note that, in your description, you did not describe at all how armor-types relate to mob/warg natdam.

ETA:

After some more theoretical mathing, two things seem off to me about the new charting:

- Bludgeon is always the worst weapon type, now.
- Slash is always the best weapon type, now.

[Icarus]

I don't think you can really do a mathematical analysis of that particular set of values I provided, as it's not a straight listing of items.

On any note, updates to the compare command are live. Please test.

[BashSkull52]

A few descrepancies I noticed when comparing metal armor IG compared to your value matrix you recently posted Icarus.

Compared to a rough iron mail hauberk, a riveted, bog-iron mail hauberk:
+ weighs more
+ protects less against Stab damage
+ protects less against Pierce damage
+ protects less against Chop damage
+ protects less against Blunt damage
+ protects less against Slash damage

*To verify that material still had no bearing over AC values*

Compared to a rough iron mail hauberk, a rough bog-iron mail hauberk:
+ weighs more

Is this just an issue with the compare command?

[Ceredir]

This turns out to be a mistake on my part. I accidentally swapped a > for < when changing compare's output. Fixing.

Edit: Fix is now live

[Cola]

Re: The glorious Twinking thread!

[block]
Postby Icarus » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:09 pm

As an honest note, and giving the benefit of the doubt, myself and Frigga will post a list of DOs and DON'Ts regarding what we consider abuse and twinkery. Perhaps standards have not been explicitly outlined, and if they need to be myself and the rest of staff are happy to provide guidance.

Expect this within a week, and please harass me if I don't get it posted.
[/block]

I'm getting a bit disconcerted at all the effort being put into micro-managing armor classes while neglecting to set up reasonable guidelines for what staff feel to be twinkish. An obsession with what exactly my character should wear in exactly which situation to maximize survival seems in itself somewhat twinkish, and staff catering to such obsessions is an implicit endorsement of twinkish behavior.

I'm coming to the conclusion that staff have as little insight into "twinkishness" as the rest of us, and that may be one reason why they are avoiding the task of setting out objectives guidelines on the subject. That's fine: I agree twinkishness is a concept very difficult to define. But if we all agree on that, then it would be best if we all were a bit less eager to point out the twinkishness of others.

[Icarus]

If you believe that re-balancing armor is micro-management, then by all means.

On any note, just for you:
https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... d+Twinkery

We'll update it over time as new situations arise.

[radioactivejesus]

the new compare system seems pretty solid. No more hassle with players trying to figure out wtf mesh/composite armour actually is.

[Cola]

Icarus:

It seems to me that someone wanting to know every detail of how every type of armor works codedly against every type of weapon would be an example of "Those who seek to take advantage of this weakness [the imperfection of code] to accomplish their own ends, whether it's powering up their characters or wreaking havoc on others, will be dealt with quite harshly." I don't see why this knowledge would be so important to acquire unless the goal was to power-up and wreak havoc, using a superior knowledge of how code functions to those ends.

I went to the link provided. It really had no other guidelines except a desire to avoid "powering up and wreaking havoc on others." Setting aside that "powering-up" is vague in the extreme (don't we all wish to have stronger, smarter, craftier characters?). Then it gives three examples that all had to do with combat situations. I don't find that an adequate fulfillment of your April 23 comittment to us.

It isn't my goal to criticize people who want to power-up their characters using the knowledge of how code works, nor characters who 'wreak havoc.' I'm criticizing the vagueness of your guidelines. They seem overly arbitrary, open to excessive interpretation, and abuse: players who staff favor "power up and wreak havoc" freely, players who staff do not favor are secretly punished for attempting the same endeavor.

Seriously: you promised to create some meaningful guidelines. You invited "harassment" until that task was accomplished. Please don't get sarcastic and defensive if I take you at your word.

(At the risk of sounding patronizing) A public statement that demonstrates in detail your commitment as staff as to how you are going to treat all the people that come play SoI fairly, compassionately and without vindictive, arbitrary, or secret punishments should be a higher priority than announcing the attributes of an armor class you haven't even introduced to the game yet.

[Icarus]

With all due respect, take it to another thread. I appreciate the helpful reminder, but frankly as far as I'm concerned those three items are the ones I'm looking for. If I see other situations, I'll add to that list. You may not feel like I've met your particular standards, but c'est la vie. It's going to be a bit vague.

Though let me clear one thing up:
Staff are people. Volunteers and often players. We aren't perfect. We are occasionally arbitrary, and we sometimes make poor decisions. Sometimes we can be testy, sometimes we might fail to be fair. We strive to do the best we can, regardless. A "public statement" isn't going to make us perfect.

Bring it back on topic.

[Cola]

[block]
Though let me clear one thing up:
Staff are people. Volunteers and often players. We aren't perfect. We are occasionally arbitrary, and we sometimes make poor decisions. Sometimes we can be testy, sometimes we might fail to be fair. We strive to do the best we can, regardless. A "public statement" isn't going to make us perfect.
[/block]

What better reason to have a clearly defined, open, and detailed set of guidelines?

[Matt]

I'm very confused.

Anyways thanks for the awesome updates!

[Ceredir]

How did I miss SW's input before?

I charted this out, and it seems rather unbalanced as described. For instance, every armor type is described at being good versus bludgeon. :p

It's more a rule of a thumb chart than something you should take as an exact mathematical model. Quite simply, metal is better than leather, but hinders your movement more, and weighs more. There are certain damage types where metal is only as good as leather. You'll never have metal armor be -weaker- than leather of same quality, if we're talking protection-wise, though, and the weak points can be further patched up by layering

That said, I have no practical experience with the application of these changes. They seem overly complicated, when balance could've probably been fixed with just adjusting a few numbers on the dam-type/armor chart and fixing the affects of a few variables, and all without breaking compare.

That's... exactly what we did, actually? Compare was broken to begin with. I merely changed the cosmetics of its output.
I guess the 'breaking' could be in how now, different armor types at different quality levels will often end up being the same for several values? Well, tough luck there. Unfortunately, the base system being the way it is, we have a very limited pool of possible values to use (unless we want to end up with crazy things like AC 12, which we don't). On a brighter note, this increases the importance of skill and lowers the importance of equipment.

All basic damage types are equal now, save for one.

You do not really need to know the protective values for bite and claw or anything else. Just follow common sense.

Armor is now, protection-wise, Leather < Hardened leather < Metal armor. People can try to pick the abovementioned breakdown apart as much as they want, compare armor left and right, but that's simply it (which also kind of answers Cola's question regarding this, I guess - we don't care, because no matter how much you use compare, you will not find a loophole). Quality then has a small impact on this as well, but it is not a massive difference. All in all, all the values are now much closer together and there is less of a spread in protection values for similar armor types. Where the major differences lie is weight, hinderance (yes, that little line in info -does- affect combat, and is not affected by str, by the way), durability, sneak penalties.

[Ceredir]

I'm very confused.

You're not alone