Trust

[Nimrod]

But I'll say this instead. A big problem with this game currently is people don't trust you. Not only in game design but with ethics. People still trusted Icarus but now he's gone so this is coming up again. Can we trust a fair frigga/nimrod run game?

Please cite some examples so I know what it is you're talking about here, Matt. If my ethics are being questioned, then I'm obviously doing something wrong and want to know what it is.

You're both incredibly stand offish about how things are done. You make these big docs of rules and regulations then break them. What we see is what we know as players. Build the best game in the world and people still won't play if they don't trust you.

What rules have I broken, Matt? I work very hard to be as consistent as possible and go out of my way to take the high road at all times.

Lay it on me. Seriously, let me have it. I ain't skeerd.

[Nimrod]

One thing you mentioned, Matt, was my being stand-offish. I'd like to tell you why.

I normally am stand-offish with players. One of the main reasons I'm standoffish is because as a player in the old Eastern Garrison, I enjoyed playing with other players. I had no idea that there were forums for the game and was happy in my ignorance. I was contacted by staff a total of 1 single time when I used the think command incorrectly and then never heard from them again for six months. I wasn't worried about meta-gaming, or worried about what was fair or not. I was worried about my character's dreams, worried about him dying when he had so much to live for. I was worried about his honor.

The enjoyment of those times soon waned and play became different. I still loved it, but that wonder was forever lost. I don't -ever- want to be the one responsible for someone losing that wonder if I can help it.

Other reasons for being stand-offish are:

1. Being drawn in to endless debate on topics that matter little is a huge time waster. I'd much rather ignore the argument and work on some building than partake.

2. It invites more and more from those you speak to. They begin to take liberties with what they may consider a 'friendship' when there is no real friendship. It can be boiled down to the simple saying: Familiarity breeds contempt. That may sound harsh, but it's true.

3. Making it known that you're going to answer a question quickly and bluntly let's folks know that I really don't care to just chat, and I don't. Every minute I spend chatting with someone is a minute that I'm not working on something else for the game.

4. Many always assume the worst about me. I've spent hours upon hours trying to defend some of my work to the strangest of people that refuse to understand the most basic points I'm trying to make. They instead assume that I am lying and using my position to force my views on them. I've been called a racist, a homophobe, and many other grotesque things. It's offensive, but trying to defend myself seems to always end up with me shaking my head at the sheer stubborness of some.

Don't get me wrong. I still maintain hope for most of our players, even you, Matt. The bulk of our players are awesome people. But I just don't have the energy, nor the time to defend all of my actions to everyone who thinks they've been wronged in one way or another. It's those few, that scream the loudest about lies and huge conspiracies that suck the most life out of me. Fortunately we have a great playerbase that inspires me every time I log in to the player port.

So... yeah... I'm stand-offish. I don't plan on changing.

[twitchyweasel]

In reply to the player/staff mentioned by Matt, he started the game with riveted hauberk, which was uncraftable at the time, and also with a polished weapon, which is still uncraftable.

That is nothing to knock the character, though. Really like the PC. Just not his his -starting- gear.

[twitchyweasel]

And those special app/offer pcs? They showed up in a time where we were told that no one can create anything outside of the approved roles. You have to be from this area, this age, this culture. Nothing else. If you offered those roles to more than one person, that's great. I'm for it. I didn't see any public call for elves, or dunadan, however. Again, not trying to be confrontational, but fair play and transparency will do great things for the game. Why pass up people who have earned RPP, and play the game regularly to invite those who played good in the past? We were, afterall, told that no rpp would be granted just because we had had it in the past.

[Melkor]

In reply to the player/staff mentioned by Matt, he started the game with riveted hauberk, which was uncraftable at the time, and also with a polished weapon, which is still uncraftable.

That is nothing to knock the character, though. Really like the PC. Just not his his -starting- gear.

Don't forget the recurved, composite shortbow and skills that were likely adroit-ish or higher but most definitely talented. He even said so shortly after the character came in. Commented oocly that he could not gain skill from the arena prog.

But like twitchy said, it is nothing against the character or player. I enjoy RPing with them immensely.

I think the problem is that RPP suck. Songweaver's badge system he came up with when Atonement was being created is far superior. If you haven't been reading optional realities forums, this is a great thread here:

http://optionalrealities.com/forums/ind ... opic=217.0

[tehkory]

Again, I'm forever in support of Staff making the game they dream of making, and of players blowing off steam, and I think it's all for the good of the game that we do this(to an extent). Someone making bad decisions for the right reasons is better than good decisions for the wrong reasons, in the end. Player's morale mostly run on good/wrong decisions, and Staff morale mostly runs on good/bad reasons.

Trust is essentially a currency. You say you will do something. Then you do it. Your among of currency of trust goes up. If you do it consistently, it continues to go up. If you obey the rules you create for yourself/for others, it stays high.

Nimrod/Frigga/many other Staff(read: most, save the ones I don't know of) run on promises. I don't OFTEN see those promises fulfilled. That's where my problem of trust comes in.

While Brian is right, and that these Staff are very open to criticism and willing to admit fault when they feel they're at fault/see that themselves, I don't often find that many of the current Staff are particularly good at fulfilling their promises. Warfare, Laketown, and many other things ride on their word. When they fulfill it, it's often good. But they often don't. It's hard to put much trust in what is said and what is promised. (Aside: Neither am I particularly good at fulfilling my promises, so I wouldn't trust me much either.)

It's not that you're bad at what you do, Nimrod, because you're not. You make mistakes. You generally own them. But you don't keep up with what is said, and an inconsistent record is what will kill trust above all else. That's the main problem. Be stand-offish, I certainly don't care. I know I can be, among my many other faults.

Special applications are fine(I hate them) as long as you make it clear they exist, and that they break X amount of rules(or any of them), etc. etc. But your policies and your policy creation on SoI-That-Is is what's lacking, and has been since the beginning. Rules aren't fun, and it sucks making them. But players bitch less about the rules you don't have/the standards you're breaking when you create clear rules and clear exceptions to those rules.

[Matt]

I'll break down the biggest one first and the same thing that everyone else has. There's definitely more but I only have so much time right now and I am on my phone.

So RPP didn't transer from old SOI. I totally supported thst even though I had 4-5. It was the best thing for a new game with a clean slate. You even have rules somewhere I am pretty sure on how to get them.

People start asking about special roles and races on the forums and PMs etc etc. You tell people 'We are not considering x races'. Then an elf shows up and you're still not somehow and are vague about why there's an elf. People asked about his gear before he even kill lufus and we were told it was fine. Turns out it wasn't and that was just one of the broken things. It's worrying when someone is given such broken stuff from senior staff. This codebase is a very delicate one when it comes to balance.

So people are like... Wtf, why is there an elf but no one else can apply? Which you were telling certain people they could and others it was not possible. People talk. Then you enter in PvP combat with said broken PC and save his life. After making the horrible choice of shooting an orc patrol alone.

When I say entered I mean entered. Like you were a second invis enemy with maxed out stats. You were even kind enough to load him up another custom cloak since we broke the first one in the fight. This is all so wrong alone. After that engagement we were still assured the armor was fine. Which it wasn't.

So all this happened and that player hadn't even really played new SOI. While people with 3 rpp + were getting told no on all kinds of 'special apps'. But that player got an elf because he was good on old soi? Don't get me wrong Brian is A+. But do you not seevhow this will rub people the wrong way?

The best answer you could hope for was 'try and submit something and we'll see'. Uh... What? It doesn't fill people with confidence when you set up their pc. It's blatant favoritism.

[tehkory]

You were even kind enough to load him up another custom cloak since we broke the first one in the fight.

IIRC this didn't get loaded up until he went off-grid/went home to the Elven Realm briefly. I could be wrong on the timing there.

[Brian]

You were even kind enough to load him up another custom cloak since we broke the first one in the fight.

IIRC this didn't get loaded up until he went off-grid/went home to the Elven Realm briefly. I could be wrong on the timing there.

This is correct.

[Matt]

My PC is currently visiting Rohan collecting his warhorse.

[Jeshin]

Hey,

Haven't played here in a long time but when I did I played Elan Morin of that family app that ran the Inn for awhile. Full disclosure aside just a couple of points.

1. Jaunt's Badge System is this post specifically.

2. I can understand Nimrod's problem with "over-engagement" as I call it. It can drain all the time in the day and cause stress to a pretty high degree. That being said less is more in terms of acknowledging player concerns and going. Well staff feels this way because of this. I acknowledge your concerns but at the moment we're doing something else. Then just accept you can't please everyone all of the time and move on as best you can!

3. During my stint playing was also when the Hillmen existed. Now I have said a few times I felt the Hillmen contributed to the rough start that SOI had. Hillmen didn't pop into existence though they were approved by staff and then two members of the Hillmen were given guard leadership roles. Whether this was right or wrong or anything else all that matters is it broke player expectations. People believed they could only have X Y Z roles because the game was just starting and so they toed the line. People believed that the Utterby guard would select someone more closely tied to the town itself. When these were proven to be inaccurate beliefs a lot of people went... well what -are- the rules then?

The biggest part of keeping a happy playerbase (in my opinion) is managing their expectations. Which is providing them with simple, clear cut, and universal rules. We are allowing elves, we aren't allowing elves. We are providing better items than craftable, we aren't providing better items than craftable. We are allowing virtual trips to get cultural items, we aren't allowing virtual trips to get cultural items. You get the idea.

I don't think the SOI playerbase (and those watching this forums) want staff to kowtow to every player whim. They want you to present a clear vision that they can trust is accurate and they can make informed decisions about character concepts and gameplay around.

[Gobbo]

My PC is currently visiting Rohan collecting his warhorse.

You think you are joking but I tried pretty hard to get myself a mount for one of my special request. The main response was that you can't have mounts in the forest.

Turns out Laketown will have a stables and likely mounts, those mounts will end up mirkwood without a doubt.

But that is the entire problem we are having here, what if Brian had an elf mount you could justify it as some kinda special horse trained by elves. Or someone else asked for something special that was a little more favored than I am? You'd probably see a horse running about.

The ONLY system I trust is that if I have X RPP I can do whatever that RPP allows despite whether I'm best friends with Frigga (We are probably a breath away from war any time we interact).

ps: I got straight up threatened with a ban the other day for a post. I've received two pm's from fellow players commending me for calling out the BS. Then another PM from nimrod threatening a forum ban and suggesting that I leave the game if I can not clean up my act. (My act being a single post questioning why 'Slit' was not allowed when other terms were not specifically banned.)

[Canawa]

ps: I got straight up threatened with a ban the other day for a post. I've received two pm's from fellow players commending me for calling out the BS. Then another PM from nimrod threatening a forum ban and suggesting that I leave the game if I can not clean up my act. (My act being a single post questioning why 'Slit' was not allowed when other terms were not specifically banned.)

Actually I think you are representing that incorrectly... It was more about this post right here..

Because, skank, c***, slut, bitch, etc are all perfectly within the rules and allowed but a completely FICTIONAL term that has no relevance in the real world is not allowed.

Did they let you play another elf best-staff buddy? Why are you here otherwise?

Where you actually didn't edit the word that is edited and the fact most of the posts I've seen you make are made in this fashion. Not constructive, purely destructive and making attacks.

[Hawkwind]

You have staff playing Northern Dunedain now.

And staff chasing senior positions/businesses too.

[Gobbo]

You have staff playing Northern Dunedain now.

And staff chasing senior positions/businesses too.

Wow didn't even know dunedain were a thing. Just another 'special' role along with a dwarf running about the human sphere. Sounds a bit off to me.

[Nimrod]

Nimrod/Frigga/many other Staff(read: most, save the ones I don't know of) run on promises. I don't OFTEN see those promises fulfilled. That's where my problem of trust comes in.

...

It's not that you're bad at what you do, Nimrod, because you're not. You make mistakes. You generally own them. But you don't keep up with what is said, and an inconsistent record is what will kill trust above all else. That's the main problem. Be stand-offish, I certainly don't care. I know I can be, among my many other faults.

We've had our differences, Cory, but I will not deny that I have failed many times when making promises for things and they have never come to fruition. I am making great efforts to correct that issue as it is extremely frustrating to me and I know it's frustrating to players. I will re-double my efforts to make sure that any promises I make are fulfilled and along with that, scale back on the promises made and concentrate on the ones that are in focus for our entire staff.

As for keeping up with what is said... if you're referring to what is said on the public forums, you're right. I will never keep up with what is said on the public forums by players, and even sometimes staff. I occasionally pop in to take a look at something that might catch my eye, but normally I don't have the time.

Also, the vitriol of a few is often hard to take.

But thank you for the productive feedback, I hope I'm a better admin for it.

[Canawa]

Also, the vitriol of a few is often hard to take

People who like to complain often yell their complaints, those who like to praise often whisper.

[tehkory]

if you're referring to what is said on the public forums, you're right.

Absolutely not. I'm still referring to things like Warfare, or the Citadel, or even the Piemaker. Or even Laketown on the horizon. There's a lot of talk about What's To Come, and a lot of things that simply -don't-.

Brian's right, though. You're at an almost inhuman level of grace-under-fire, I'd say. And honestly even what 'corruption' there is is pretty freaking low-level compared to what we've all seen before. I think Matt'd be hard-pressed to deny that.

But at the end the complaints and frustrations aren't going to stop until you deal with the basic things of the game. How people apply into roles/achieve the RPP to get those roles/how Special Applications work and what they are should always come before building, particularly when you've ALREADY got two spheres.

I can't fuss too much. I log in, I play, and then I log out. I don't do it often, but it's not an awful game. It's just one with some very noticeable problems that won't be hard to fix with some effort put towards them.

[Rishte]

My PC is currently visiting Rohan collecting his warhorse.

You think you are joking but I tried pretty hard to get myself a mount for one of my special request. The main response was that you can't have mounts in the forest.

Turns out Laketown will have a stables and likely mounts, those mounts will end up mirkwood without a doubt.

You cannot have what does not exist. There are no horses or any other mounts in game at the present. There are no craftable or buyable boats. They do not exist because they are at presently not feasible with our code. All stables are RP tools at the present and nothing else. We are working on changing that. So no, no one gets to have one when there isn't anything to have. No one's pulling the wool over your eyes here.

[Nimrod]

Special roles... Shooting characters... It's blatant favoritism.

I didn't edit your post in my quote to make trouble, it's simply for my purposes, to simplify the issues you are trying to make as I understand them.

I'm taking these out of order, let's do the 'shooting characters' first and how you are confused by how I continue to justify my actions.

To begin, I heard you the first time about not appreciating being shot by an invisible foe. I took that to heart and said that I'd avoid it in the future. Next, this singular instance that you just can't seem to let go of happened what? 5... 6 months ago? Your complaining like it happens every day, let's put it in to perspective.

Also, referring to the whole incident as me 'saving the elf' isn't quite the truth either... If you read the log, you'll see, as I've pointed out before, that within seconds of stopping the action to allow roleplay after the orc came in and immediately hit the elf, that the orc was having none of my interference and immediately hit the elf again, engaging him. So... in the end, my 'saving the elf' is a bit far-fetched. He was at 5 stars and ended up having to flee and twink away anyway to avoid the twinking attacks he was enduring.

It's a no-win situation with you on this one, Matt. On one hand you want staff interaction and rpts, and then on the other when I do try to provide some interaction with an elf for the orcs you cry foul.

I stand by the scene to this day, with the regret of shooting a single arrow at an orc (though I did always make sure to nerf down my skill levels so as not to kill anyone, so the point you made about max skills earlier is moot as well.)

... Blatant Favoritism.

Okay... you see it as blatant favoritism, I get that. I also understand that my words are most likely going to fall on deaf ears, but I'll do my best to explain myself.

Yes. There is a lot of favoritism shown here at Shadows of Isildur. We are guilty of it every time we award an rpp three times, or help someone make a minor modification to their character, send a pecho, modify their strength, resurrect them multiple times, set them up with special roles, trans them because they have to leave and don't want to get left out in the wilderness, load an ingot that you claim to have lost, load a lathe for you, or planishing table, and countless other things.

Amazingly enough... all of this favoritism was shown towards you, Matt. The two resurrections were performed without my knowledge and a previous admin that is no longer on staff performed them without noting your account as to why.

So... it looks like it boils down to how -much- favoritism you receive and the fact that you may feel like someone else may be getting something that you're not. That's what it looks like from this end anyway.

In the end, I think it's 'biased favoritism' that you're claiming, and I will have to vehemently deny any biased favoritism.

Special Roles. Yep. We have them... some are posted and open to anyone with the RPP to claim them. A very few are available by invitation only.

Why by invitation? Because we're confident that the person we choose for such a role will be able to fill it in the manner we expect.

The Elf was invited, by me, to take a role as an elf within our game in order to provide a bit of color in a manner that we were just unable to at the time due to time restrictions, and let's face it... skill. All of our original Elder Staffers agreed to this, so we moved forward over the course of a couple of months working with the player. The player was responsible for doing a ton of research and presenting a very detailed background, which was picked apart by us to ensure the concept fit in with what we, as staff, were striving for as a whole game.

We have invited a few other players to take roles as well and have worked with each, one at a time, to make sure they fit in to our gameworld. These roles are not just something you whip up in a few hours, like most of the more detailed backgrounds we see in chargen. Many times it has literally taken months to flesh everything out so it's all just right.

Will we continue to invite specific players to take a role? Yes.

Why weren't you asked to play our elf? Let's face it, playing an elf, in the manner we wish them played, is simply above 99.9% of our players. I've only seen two players in all my time at SoI that could properly play an elf, and the player we chose was one of them.

Don't feel slighted... I would personally never consider trying to play an elf or dwarf myself. I wouldn't even consider playing a Beorning either, it's just not in me to play them. Why? Because I'm not a Tolkien scholar and it takes one to play these roles correctly. I know a significant amount of Tolkien, but several on staff and many players put me to shame. I do not enter in to debate with these people on Tolkien Lore. I happily listen to them on these issues and am happy they are on my side.

Want to play a special role? Sadly you can't vote yourself in to the 'by invite only' roles, those are few and far between, but we do allow folks to submit ideas for roles that they are interested in playing.

So... in closing, you can trust me or not, Matt. I'm not going to lose any sleep over how you feel about it or any vitriolic venom you spew my way. I know, and staff know that I do my best to be as straight-forward as possible and go to great lengths to avoid any type of biased favoritism.

You're more than welcome to continue playing this game. I'll continue to show you favoritism when it's called for. You're even welcome to continue to distrust me and prattle on about it with all of your ooc contacts. Feel free. But I'm not going to wilt under the assault. I know in my heart that I do not dole out any favors to the handful of friends that I have in the ooc network. Ask them if you like... I'm probably much meaner to them than someone that's not my friend.

[Gobbo]

Could've sworn I saw a mounted knight in the mirkwood from the citidel during a plot. Not to be dick. It could've just been some good echos to make me think the guy was mounted, but I do remember there was a mount.

I'll take your word for it not being possible right now, after-all this is atonement's code and there was never mounts in atonement so it's likely the code for them hasn't even been started. I think I was just making a point about 'special' stuff going to favored players. My bad.

[Rishte]

Could've sworn I saw a mounted knight in the mirkwood from the citidel during a plot. Not to be dick. It could've just been some good echos to make me think the guy was mounted, but I do remember there was a mount.

I'll take your word for it not being possible right now, after-all this is atonement's code and there was never mounts in atonement so it's likely the code for them hasn't even been started. I think I was just making a point about 'special' stuff going to favored players. My bad.

What you saw was an NPC and what you thought you saw as a 'mount' wasn't a mount but was a cleverly setvaled object. Sometimes for the realism factor we have to do these tricks of the building trade. I do these all the time where I make what looks like an NPC or a PC out of an object so that you guys can use it as a message board or a component in a craft.

[Nimrod]

if you're referring to what is said on the public forums, you're right.

Absolutely not. I'm still referring to things like Warfare, or the Citadel, or even the Piemaker. Or even Laketown on the horizon. There's a lot of talk about What's To Come, and a lot of things that simply -don't-.

Just to bring you up to speed on me regarding these things, Cory. I'm not making excuses, just explaining. I stepped away on April 29th (I looked it up) to take a bit of a break from the game after nearly two years of being extremely active in all phases. I had the blues from the winter weather and I love the outdoors and poking around out in my garage. I was pretty much completely away for around 10 weeks, though I did keep up with the Elder Staff forums as well as communicated from time to time with Frigga, though those conversations did not center around the game so much. Just a 'hi how are ya' type deal.

I spent my time away just living life, enjoying family and grounding myself as I could feel my feet leaving the ground when it came to the game.

In hind sight, it's the best thing I've done as a staffer and I encourage all of our staff to step away from time to time for a few weeks to re-center and put things in perspective.

Warfare... unfortunately was put on hold while I was gone. I have picked up the mantle again and am spending time on it each day. As soon as I settle back in, I'll be spending even more time on it. I won't promise a date, but I am determined to complete this system.

Laketown... We've made a ton of progress in Laketown thanks especially to the three admins that we hired about two months prior to my taking my leave. Rishte, Telchar and Ceredir. The bulk of the public areas are completely described, the underdocks are pretty much done and we're hashing out some details which include the Artisan's Union, politics, import and export and a vast host of other things.

The Citadel... The Citadel itself is built and fully described inside. If we wished to we could open the doors and allow players in right now. The problem is the clan itself and how we are going to tie it in with Laketown. The decisions have been made internally, we know where we are going with the whole thing, it's just a matter of getting things done, which is no small task.

The Piemaker... I'll have to plead ignorance to this one. This did not exist when I took my leave and I've not seen anything of it on the Elder Forums, so I have zero idea of what you're talking about. I did a search of our staff forums as well as player forums and the only mention of 'piemaker' is an obscure reference here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2500&p=29851&hilit=piemaker#p29851 but that's all I see.

If you'd like to fill me in, please do so. I'm all ears.

[twitchyweasel]

I don't want to sound butthurt, because I, like Nim, have no desire to play an elf. Never have. I do wonder, though, why we would spend months working on something that is above 99.9 percent of the players. Why not put in a much easier to play role? Benefit everyone who wants to do something different instead of the .01 who has that special ability.

I'm not crying favoritism. Just standardization.

Edited to add more thoughts: If you standardize rpp rules and races, the .01 will naturally rise to the top. They'll still be the ones playing the dwarves and dunadan and ologs, but they'll get them without having to be invited. They will have played the game, at least.

[Nimrod]

I don't want to sound butthurt, because I, like Nim, have no desire to play an elf. Never have. I do wonder, though, why we would spend months working on something that is above 99.9 percent of the players. Why not put in a much easier to play role? Benefit everyone who wants to do something different instead of the .01 who has that special ability.

I'm not crying favoritism. Just standardization.

It wasn't staff spending months on it, twitchy. The bulk of the work was the player's.

The .01 can provide something to the game that we just can't give through npcs or static descriptions or animations. Someone spending ALL of their time on that thing that gives life to the game can do farm more than we can as staff.

A well played 0 RPP character can also light things up... we've got some of those running around as well.