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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Icarus » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:13 pm

Rishte wrote:
Gobbo wrote:Could've sworn I saw a mounted knight in the mirkwood from the citidel during a plot. Not to be dick. It could've just been some good echos to make me think the guy was mounted, but I do remember there was a mount.

I'll take your word for it not being possible right now, after-all this is atonement's code and there was never mounts in atonement so it's likely the code for them hasn't even been started. I think I was just making a point about 'special' stuff going to favored players. My bad.


What you saw was an NPC and what you thought you saw as a 'mount' wasn't a mount but was a cleverly setvaled object. Sometimes for the realism factor we have to do these tricks of the building trade. I do these all the time where I make what looks like an NPC or a PC out of an object so that you guys can use it as a message board or a component in a craft.


Actually in this case it was an animation I did. It used the coded mount code. Just mset mount on the horse, give both rider and mount handle skill and it works fine.

Horses work, stables work. All of it still works just fine. I rode Grommit around all the time.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:27 pm

Mounts are not codedly available to any player or character at this time. While there is a skill to use them, and you can mount 'horse flagged' NPCs or PCs, they do not codedly read in a capacity as utilizing the skill, which is handling. The two types of horses still being worked on, and not yet approved, all bear empty variables.

Stables also do not work aside from being a room. There is no prog at this moment for stabling said mounts that players and characters do not have access to. There are 9 stables presently in the game world. Not a single one yet functions as a stable. This is being worked on. When such things, as mounts and the stables to stable them, are functioning, they will be available to PCs who can afford them, feeding them, housing them, etc.
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Re: Trust

Postby Icarus » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:43 pm

There's no reason they don't codedly work Rishte. Set up a mobile with the ostler tag and they'll pur along for the stable. I just tested it on my copy of the server, no issues.

No need to give players complex sounding lines of bull about setvaled objects standing in for mobiles or variables not working. Just tell the truth, which is we've not taken more than 5 minutes to even think about horses.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:55 pm

The reason I said setvaled is because I did the setvaling in another animation where there was a pony. Its not bull.

There are no rflags rtags or anything for stables. There are no rprogs for stables. There are no tokens or slips built for renting a stall in a stable to house your animal or the progs to go along with using them. And there are no fully, functioning, built mounts. You know that they're on the 'to-do', but they're not done.

Why give players the impression that we have something, and we're holding it back from them for funzies, when that isn't the case? What exactly are you trying to accomplish besides making a scene that doesn't need to be made.
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Re: Trust

Postby Icarus » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:12 pm

Just because you personally don't know how to do something does not mean it doesn't exist my dear.

The citadel animation was mine. With an NPC. On a variable horse mob. That worked just fine.

You say "stables do not work" -- I say, set up a mobile, give him an ostler flag, and type stable <mount>. Code generates the slip. See line 2060 of db.cpp.

What I'm trying to accomplish is to make you look foolish for pulling a common tactic (oh the jeezwobs must first be calibrated with the nanywhatsits) that makes people think that the reason something doesn't exist is because there is a significant amount of work required to do it. It's not a tactic you should use, because the actual truth of the matter is we never thought about horses for players. Like we had no discussion about them topside. And that's not "holding fun stuff back," that's just us having limited time to consider a potentially complex issue.

But again, just say that instead of the whole "it's so complex and doesn't work" line.

Adding: (and if the game crashes when you try it, try setting the vnum of the ticket to be 44. It's set aside in mine, but might not be in yours. Remember how we got cards to work, similar concept.)
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
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Re: Trust

Postby Gobbo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:28 pm

<3 Icarus. *munches some popcorn*
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:39 pm

Actually, I don't look nor feel foolish. There isn't a scrap of any of this work of yours documented anywhere on the staff forums, in buildernotes, nor on Basecamp. So my bad for not knowing about something that exists but has zero information on. Sorry for that. There are outdated helpfiles for playeruse, yes.

There are half-built horses and there are 17 pages of horse care (feed, brushing, farrier work, and healing), ostler crafts, saddles, bridles, horse blankets, variables, other necessary objects in horse tending written up. There is also information on oxen, push-carts, wagons, goats, and sheep. While you, personally, may not have thought about mounts and ostlering, it was being done without you. Sorry if I'm slow getting the crafts and documentation in, damn. My bad.
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Re: Trust

Postby Matt » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:46 pm

If he didn't say something I would've. A lot of players know the code decently. You could set players up to remotely control horses to be ridden by other horses if you wanted.
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Re: Trust

Postby Icarus » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:54 pm

You, like all of staff, have access to the legacy Admin Area documentation from SOI that we used quite often. You know, the one that contains documentation for rset, helms, masks (you made masks once IIRC and we got the info from that), and amidst all that documentation is indeed all the needed stuff for mounts and stables.

And you're telling me that you wrote 17 pages of documentation on horse care? /17/ /pages/. Of stuff that no one will ever read. And you're proud of this?

Anyways, that's getting off topic. Return to the issue at hand: what staff have done, or are doing, that does not engender the trust and confidence of the community. Sorry for the brief derail, though perhaps it was more relevant than I'd meant it to be.
[Petition: Player] I am ready to begin my interdimensional adventure.

A mutilated little orc murmurs, nodding as he mutters,
"I fought good today. Yuh. Fought good, 'specially for bein' the kitchen-snaga. Yuh, I did."
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Re: Trust

Postby Gobbo » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:09 pm

Icarus wrote:You, like all of staff, have access to the legacy Admin Area documentation from SOI that we used quite often. You know, the one that contains documentation for rset, helms, masks (you made masks once IIRC and we got the info from that), and amidst all that documentation is indeed all the needed stuff for mounts and stables.

And you're telling me that you wrote 17 pages of documentation on horse care? /17/ /pages/. Of stuff that no one will ever read. And you're proud of this?

Anyways, that's getting off topic. Return to the issue at hand: what staff have done, or are doing, that does not engender the trust and confidence of the community. Sorry for the brief derail, though perhaps it was more relevant than I'd meant it to be.


I find your derail was very much on topic. It was easier for a staff member to white lie about whether horses were possible (making me look like a twat) then it was to simply tell then truth. If someone of relevance and favor wanted a mount the a staff member could custom implement one relatively easily from what I understand.

I mean would it be much harder than setting the custom stats for an elf. Writing all the special desc for elf gear and doing all the stats for elf weapons and armor. Seems to me mounts would be more relevant to more players while elf gear and characters are only relevant to the 0.1%.


Just a couple hours ago I made a ticket about putting on a special event for players but I needed some prize money from vnpc sources. I was shot down and told to 1. Find the ic litigant who I haven't seen in 3 months. Or 2. Get other players to put up prize money 'for the prestige'.

Somehow I wonder if another player would have got a more favorable response. I mean I know I COULD put in a lot of work and put on a bit of a prpt without any staff assistance at all. But staff COULD be a bit more helpful and supportive of players trying to do things. Didn't we just have a bunch of arguments about staff supporting players more?

I just feel like I'm the wrong player. You may feel underappreciated staff. But I feel unappreciated too. Particularly when being told to take a hike by nimrod if I don't like something.
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Re: Trust

Postby Ceredir » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:31 pm

In Rishte's defense, the document Icarus mentions is not very easy to locate nor (especially) navigate, and our own new documentation is rather poor. We've lost a lot of stuff in the transition from old SoI. It is easy for us who have experience from the "old" times, but I do often get into a situation where a newer staff member asks me about a command and I am like "really, you don't know how to do that?"... and then realize we simply have no documentation for said command.

Something we certainly need to rectify, and I now see that it is even more important than I thought before. Guess I should get to it, right?
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:13 am

Gobbo wrote:
Icarus wrote:You, like all of staff, have access to the legacy Admin Area documentation from SOI that we used quite often. You know, the one that contains documentation for rset, helms, masks (you made masks once IIRC and we got the info from that), and amidst all that documentation is indeed all the needed stuff for mounts and stables.

And you're telling me that you wrote 17 pages of documentation on horse care? /17/ /pages/. Of stuff that no one will ever read. And you're proud of this?

Anyways, that's getting off topic. Return to the issue at hand: what staff have done, or are doing, that does not engender the trust and confidence of the community. Sorry for the brief derail, though perhaps it was more relevant than I'd meant it to be.


I find your derail was very much on topic. It was easier for a staff member to white lie about whether horses were possible (making me look like a twat) then it was to simply tell then truth. If someone of relevance and favor wanted a mount the a staff member could custom implement one relatively easily from what I understand.

I mean would it be much harder than setting the custom stats for an elf. Writing all the special desc for elf gear and doing all the stats for elf weapons and armor. Seems to me mounts would be more relevant to more players while elf gear and characters are only relevant to the 0.1%.


Just a couple hours ago I made a ticket about putting on a special event for players but I needed some prize money from vnpc sources. I was shot down and told to 1. Find the ic litigant who I haven't seen in 3 months. Or 2. Get other players to put up prize money 'for the prestige'.

Somehow I wonder if another player would have got a more favorable response. I mean I know I COULD put in a lot of work and put on a bit of a prpt without any staff assistance at all. But staff COULD be a bit more helpful and supportive of players trying to do things. Didn't we just have a bunch of arguments about staff supporting players more?

I just feel like I'm the wrong player. You may feel underappreciated staff. But I feel unappreciated too. Particularly when being told to take a hike by nimrod if I don't like something.


As the staff member who responded to your ticket I can guarantee 100% without hesitation that I would have told -any and every- player who asked an NPC for 1000cp to seek out a loan from a PC or speak with the local Litigant. No where in my reply did I say the word 'no'. I said 'Please see if you can manufacture such a thing ICly.' And since you said you can handle this, please do. That way, I can totes take time to actually see mounts come to fruitation now that I know its actually feasible right now. Sweet.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:42 am

You're nit picking frivolous detail now... and not with me, you're picking on newer staff members. It's becoming a recurring theme and I'm shocked and saddened to see a former Elder Staffer jumping on this band wagon of vitriol.

How about you re-direct your ire at me? I'm the Lead of this game, and therefore responsible for every single thing that happens. I do not fear your verve, nor your accusations.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:50 am

Nimrod wrote:You're nit picking frivolous detail now... and not with me, you're picking on newer staff members. It's becoming a recurring theme and I'm shocked and saddened to see a former Elder Staffer jumping on this band wagon of vitriol.

How about you re-direct your ire at me? I'm the Lead of this game, and therefore responsible for every single thing that happens. I do not fear your verve, nor your accusations.


Polished sword, recurve bow, and special gloves? We still haven't addressed that, and there is a current player who started the game with that -still- uncraftable gear.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:09 am

twitchyweasel wrote:
Nimrod wrote:You're nit picking frivolous detail now... and not with me, you're picking on newer staff members. It's becoming a recurring theme and I'm shocked and saddened to see a former Elder Staffer jumping on this band wagon of vitriol.

How about you re-direct your ire at me? I'm the Lead of this game, and therefore responsible for every single thing that happens. I do not fear your verve, nor your accusations.


Polished sword, recurve bow, and special gloves? We still haven't addressed that, and there is a current player who started the game with that -still- uncraftable gear.

See, I'm totally fine with that, as long as it's equal damage/AC. That's what Dunadan/Elves/Dwarves should get. Lighter, prettier, higher HP, yet in the end equally armored/damaging equipment that they can craft.

That's good. That's more balanced. Not that Staff have a policy on this yet.

Nimrod:
Icarus is, in his own way, hitting the nail on the head on what I'm talking about. We get a lot of chaff in the air when it comes to promises, what's possible, etc., and it's often half-true to start with, entirely out-of-touch with players(17 pages of documentation!), or doesn't come out in the end.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:12 am

tehkory wrote:
twitchyweasel wrote:
Nimrod wrote:You're nit picking frivolous detail now... and not with me, you're picking on newer staff members. It's becoming a recurring theme and I'm shocked and saddened to see a former Elder Staffer jumping on this band wagon of vitriol.

How about you re-direct your ire at me? I'm the Lead of this game, and therefore responsible for every single thing that happens. I do not fear your verve, nor your accusations.


Polished sword, recurve bow, and special gloves? We still haven't addressed that, and there is a current player who started the game with that -still- uncraftable gear.

See, I'm totally fine with that, as long as it's equal damage/AC. That's what Dunadan/Elves/Dwarves should get. Lighter, prettier, higher HP, yet in the end equally armored/damaging equipment that they can craft.

That's good. That's more balanced. Not that Staff have a policy on this yet.

Nimrod:
Icarus is, in his own way, hitting the nail on the head on what I'm talking about. We get a lot of chaff in the air when it comes to promises, what's possible, etc., and it's often half-true to start with, entirely out-of-touch with players(17 pages of documentation!), or doesn't come out in the end.



I feel the same, gpa. The thing is, is that it's not. The sword is a one handed greatsword, the bow and gloves, if anything like the elf's, which I suspect, give like a +10 to the bowskill and aim.

I'm all about pretty, different gear. But not +10 gear and a one handed greatsword that no one else in game can craft.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:22 am

twitchyweasel wrote:Polished sword, recurve bow, and special gloves? We still haven't addressed that, and there is a current player who started the game with that -still- uncraftable gear.

I'm not sure what to tell you here, twitchy, I thought that this had been addressed already. There is special gear in game for some special roles. As was stated elsewhere, the bulk of this special gear is just prettied up to look different rather than being modified in its function.

And before you drag up the worn argument about the elf gear, that has been resolved already.

Eventually we'll allow some players to modify the descs of some of the things they craft to give them a special look, so everyone can have some unique items. For now though, trying to outfit everyone with specialized equipment is not very high on our list of things to do.

You can, however, use, or find someone that can use, the artistry code to pretty up many of your objects if you wish.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:24 am

Nimrod wrote:
twitchyweasel wrote:Polished sword, recurve bow, and special gloves? We still haven't addressed that, and there is a current player who started the game with that -still- uncraftable gear.

I'm not sure what to tell you here, twitchy, I thought that this had been addressed already. There is special gear in game for some special roles. As was stated elsewhere, the bulk of this special gear is just prettied up to look different rather than being modified in its function.

And before you drag up the worn argument about the elf gear, that has been resolved already.

Eventually we'll allow some players to modify the descs of some of the things they craft to give them a special look, so everyone can have some unique items. For now though, trying to outfit everyone with specialized equipment is not very high on our list of things to do.

You can, however, use, or find someone that can use, the artistry code to pretty up many of your objects if you wish.



I'm not worried about the bulk of pretty gear. My character has some, to be honest. I'm worried about uncraftable weapons that give players a distinct advantage codewise. Such has one handed greatswords or +10 bows and gloves. Have you looked at such vear to see if such boosts are applied?
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:04 am

tehkory wrote:Nimrod:
Icarus is, in his own way, hitting the nail on the head on what I'm talking about. We get a lot of chaff in the air when it comes to promises, what's possible, etc., and it's often half-true to start with, entirely out-of-touch with players(17 pages of documentation!), or doesn't come out in the end.


I believe that many folks may be confusing my posts that speak on the future vision for the game as promises, Cory. Many may also look on promises, specified or nebulous, as being broken because we are not there yet. If I've caused this disillusionment by speaking of our dreams of things to come through past newsletters or board posts, I apologize. We're doing the best we can with what we have and we continue to strive for those things.

The point about half-truths is an interesting one, Cory. It's a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't issue, and it's not a game I'm going to play. This is not Washington politics, it's not slight of hand games to shift your attention to one thing while we do another. We have nothing to hide, but do not provide full disclosure on all things.

I'm not sure what you want here, Cory. If I have a bag of M&M's and tell you I have some M&M's, you ask if I have some yellow ones and I say yes, then you call me a liar because I didn't tell you I have orange and green ones too. I realize that's an over-simplification of the issue, but it seems to fit.

I do agree with you on the 'doesn't come out in the end' comment. The past three months have seen very little in considered leadership, or striving for a singular goal. I take full responsibility for this.

Often times, when staff are working hard, they come across questions or great ideas, and then those ideas branch more ideas and soon the simple becomes complex. I have failed to provide the focused determination over the last three months, and for that I humbly apologize. I am taking steps to resolve the issue and it is the most important thing on my plate. It's not something that can be resolved overnight though. It takes a concerted effort on everyone's part.

One last thing is the matter of just how much do we disclose to you, as a player? Do you feel transparency, which I've spoken on before, entitles you to know what I'm working on each day, or to hear about the problems I'm having with trying to get a particular part of my warcraft progs / crafts to work is? Just how much transparency is sufficient here? I have to draw this line all the time, and it's a fuzzy line, but it's a line none the less. Perhaps your idea of transparency is to the left of the line I have drawn, which makes you feel as though I'm hiding something, or lying.

In the end, we'll never be fully transparent to players. It just can't work. So yes... if you feel that our not disclosing everything we do is lying, then we're guilty and will continue to be so.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:13 am

twitchyweasel wrote:I'm not worried about the bulk of pretty gear. My character has some, to be honest. I'm worried about uncraftable weapons that give players a distinct advantage codewise. Such has one handed greatswords or +10 bows and gloves. Have you looked at such vear to see if such boosts are applied?


I do not know of any such objects, except for the staff-only objects, and those are not given to players. If such boosts do exist, they have been introduced in the last three months, twitchy. I will continue to monitor these things, along with staff members, and if we find anything out of the ordinary, it will be addressed.

I'd like to ask why you suspect these items exist in game, and if you do come across any, how did you determine that it was OP? The accusation of +10 gloves seems extremely specific to me, so it sounds like you have something more specific you want to say but aren't.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:54 am

Nimrod wrote:
twitchyweasel wrote:I'm not worried about the bulk of pretty gear. My character has some, to be honest. I'm worried about uncraftable weapons that give players a distinct advantage codewise. Such has one handed greatswords or +10 bows and gloves. Have you looked at such vear to see if such boosts are applied?


I do not know of any such objects, except for the staff-only objects, and those are not given to players. If such boosts do exist, they have been introduced in the last three months, twitchy. I will continue to monitor these things, along with staff members, and if we find anything out of the ordinary, it will be addressed.

I'd like to ask why you suspect these items exist in game, and if you do come across any, how did you determine that it was OP? The accusation of +10 gloves seems extremely specific to me, so it sounds like you have something more specific you want to say but aren't.


Extrapolation, I will admit. The elf's gear is well documented, and the bow is similar or the same as that, and the gloves also are similar. I was also around when the player came around, and he came out like a bat out of hell. Could have been greatly increased skills, I suppose.

Best solution would be to look at said gear yourself. If there isn't any boosts applied, or not a one handed greatsword, I would recant all my statements!
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Re: Trust

Postby ThinkTwice » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:00 am

I'm most interested in seeing an official staff response concerning staff PC's, their skill levels, gearing, and status IG.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:03 am

It's probably not a one-handed greatsword. It's probably, rather, a superb-quality longsword that just deals more damage than a greatsword.

Transparency to alleviate player concerns of cheating/etc is important, I think. I don't think every aspect of what goes on behind the curtain needs transparency, but with SOI's checkered past in this specific area, being able to show players that what they consider to be cheating is not happening - or fixing said issues and putting in meaningful policies to ensure that they don't happen again - is important.

I'm not sure that "I'll look into it" is meaningful enough, ultimately. It definitely doesn't alleviate my personal concerns. There is a very large danger with staff playing PCs.

That's all that I want to contribute here, though. I think most folks are painfully aware of how I feel about these sorts of things.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:07 am

ThinkTwice wrote:I'm most interested in seeing an official staff response concerning staff PC's, their skill levels, gearing, and status IG.


Exactly. All I'm looking for with my questions is a, let me look right now. I'll let you know momentarily.

It is disparaging to get answered with, 'I haven't seen it, but I'll keep an eye out. I promise I'm not trying to be hostile or anything. I just really have a lot invested in this game.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:52 am

ThinkTwice wrote:I'm most interested in seeing an official staff response concerning staff PC's, their skill levels, gearing, and status IG.


Staff do have pcs. Skill levels are all within the norm. One staffer mentioned last night that they were using the stat command to see when their skill timers expired so they could time their practices to maximize skill gains. This was a minor infraction and is actually nothing a player can't do on his own just by looking at the clock. It's not against the rules for a player to twink up their skills and time things, so in the grand scheme of things this was just exercising poor judgement rather than blatant cheating. The issue has been addressed.

As far as gearing, I am confident that all staff-played chars will be fine, but I am going to be checking.

Status: They're all active players who log in regularly. Some are in low-level leadership roles, most of those having been forced there because no players would step in to volunteer.

To clarify, staff-run characters enjoy all the rights that a regular pc does. The intent is not to make them all low-level, support only pcs. They are scrutinized by other staff members much more than other pc's.
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