Trust

[Nimrod]

It is disparaging to get answered with, 'I haven't seen it, but I'll keep an eye out. I promise I'm not trying to be hostile or anything. I just really have a lot invested in this game.

It's not meant to be off-putting. I literally cannot check these things right now. I mean it's physically impossible.

[ThinkTwice]

Re: Staff PC's

Alright, cool. Thanks for the prompt and courteous reply.

[Bones]

Hey kids! I know what you're all thinking. "Oh sh(expletive), Bones is here to dumb down the thread with his facts, logic and or a combination of the two for his reasoning." But you'd be wrong! I promise not to use any facts, logic, or said combination at all!

As a player who got to interact with his Imperial Nibbs, the Elf.. Yeah. His gear was a bit overpowered.. For a couple weeks. Then staff pulled a U-ey, and made his gear down to an acceptable level. Which, to my amusement, he trashed pretty often and -badly-. Did he have cool descriptions for his gear? Yep. Did staff do it for them? Heh.. Probably not.. This sort of bleeds into the follow up topic. But considering that to get the Citadel descriptions how I thought they ought look (with some minor modification by the Golden Robot), I had to submit them. All of them. I bet that's what the Elf did as well. And the Dunny/s/Plural. And polished swords aren't anything special. The Smithy brothers in Utterby did that crap long before we had an Elf. They also made/crafted better gear than what the elf brought in, from my own comparisons.

Now.. Warcraft.. Honestly? We don't fugging need it. The Orcs proved that they don't need a new craft suite/code to wreck Utterby's military arm. They've done it consistently. Regularly, when they coordinate. Which they did better than anything Utterby could. So while I'm all 'Yeah, New Code Nim!' I'm also like 'Wow.. We're going to get properly bent over for this in Utterby'.


What else.. What else.. Gobbo? Probably got threatened for a ban because of your fetish for four letter expletives and misogyny. I dunno. Seems to be your shtick.

Hmm....... Special roles.. Special roles.. Like the Robot said, and like everyone whined. There are probably roles ranging from Grand Mugwump Sorcerreling Wizard of the Woods, to 'Sauron'. And roles in between. Who knows? If you aren't invited.. Cry about it. Or take a look at your RPP. Picture a role you'd normally think might be one RPP above what you have. Now write a recommendation. A good, well thought out, long, not at all meta-gaming-twink-happy-fun-wrecker role (You kids know who you are), and submit it to staff. If they accept it, great! Prepare for three to six months of hard writing, re-writing, cajoling and bartering with staff to fit your role into place. If they say NO however.. Ask why. What you can change, and how to do it. You think ALL of these 'special roles' were invited? Probably not. Some people just have the RPP. I say 'One rpp above', because if you put enough thought into something, chances are, Staff will hear you out and consider it. And if not.. By the time you're ready to try again for a special role, you've probably already earned another RPP.


Horses. Who the hell needs them? Most of the woods are too thick to go at more than a slow walking pace for horses. We don't have anywhere yet to go. Be honest. Admit you just want something to add to your combat, like the Orcs have Wargs, and we'll accept that as honest. Because for any other reason beyond flavor, (Horse meat is good by the way. Seriously. Try it. Now. I suggest ketchup.) horses should be useless. Also, before any of you whine, notice I said 'Most places'. Yeah, inevitably there are some that you could ICly ride through. Walk. It won't kill you.. Probably.

In general, all this seems to be some sort of inane anti-establishment crap. While I get you all have serious hangups.. If you -really- don't like what's being done.. Quit. Walk away. I've done it. I did it for a few months already. If you think through the strength of your cheeses and whines, you'll get Nimrod and Frigga to change their minds.. Heh.. Take it from someone who, like Icarus, was on staff with them at one point or another. Rarely, rarely will they back down when they don't want to.

So there you have it. One logic, fact free post.. Maybe..

Where the HELL are my pants..? Icarus.. Did you steal them?

[Canawa]

Stuff and things that Canawa agrees with.

Where the HELL are my pants..? Icarus.. Did you steal them?

I don't know you, but I will find you and I will upvote you (maybe).

[Droll]

stuff..

I've been mostly avoiding chiming in. Look, a lot of this, is entirely missing the point. No one is mad that Brian got to be an elf. The problem is, that every last person who asked when the game opened was told that no, we won't be allowed to use our RPP from old SOI. It doesn't matter who we were, that didn't apply. Then low and behold Brian is invited to be an elf. Why? Solely based off of the fact he had been an elf on old SOI.

I say 'One rpp above', because if you put enough thought into something, chances are, Staff will hear you out and consider it. And if not.. By the time you're ready to try again for a special role, you've probably already earned another RPP.

So, exactly how many RPP did Brian have on this iteration of SOI that enabled him to play an elf? This isn't the first time that question was asked, but I've yet to see it answered. How many RPP are required to be an elf & did he have this before he was invited to play an elf since he did a good job on old SOI? As said multiple times on the forums, no one is faulting Brian. Barely saw his elf but was solid enough. problem is the double standards coming from staff. I can't imagine an elf was offered off of RPP in that short of a time frame, unless elves are extremely cheap on the table. Seeing as I don't see any other elves running around, I doubt it.

And horses, yeah, who gives a damn. We're in the Mirk. You ain't fitting a horse in here (moose is fine, apparently). The problem with that whole subject is you have different staff saying different things. Some are saying its impossible, which started an argument about that being disingenuous since it is entirely possible. Knowing Rishte, probably just an honest mistake, she didn't know it was in there.

Then there are other problems that haven't even been fully mentioned. You see clan leads not being passed off to second in commands but things like letting players who retired their positions to come back on their next PC and lead the same clan. All while you have the whole group stagnating because it wasn't handed off to the logical, common sense choice: the next most active who was still trying instead of retiring.


As has also been brought up, staff PCs & their positions. The list of PCs that I suspect/know to be staff? I have 0 problem with any of them, as long as they are active. All good PCs. At the end of the day, this is a game. You all are putting in time to make the game as enjoyable as you can for the rest of us. I'm not about to sit here and type out some hypocritical response about you shouldn't be allowed to play your own game.


The problem with this growing list of things? Nimrod, Frigga, rest of you, you've been around long enough. You know the problems SOI has had over the years. Just think back to the multiple problems we've had over the years. Rhubarb. Hawk & Dove. FJ. A million other examples. The problems we are all seeing creep in, are extremely reminiscent of these things. And all of us know, nothing good came from any of all that nonsense.


Then the final problem.

Quit. Walk away.

This is about the 5th time I've seen this crop up from a current or former staff member in the last week. Is that really what we want? The dozen or so people voicing concerns at present to join the dozens of others who have already said their farewells to the game? I don't actually think that's what you want. Compared to the likes of former admins, you guys are at least willing to hear out arguments. That speaks volumes. However, saying that we're going this route, which are a lot like old problems plaguing this game, and if you don't like it quit? That's not an insanely healthy attitude to have. And certainly not a good one for the game.

[Hawkwind]

You really shouldnt talk Bones, you played 7-8 Northern Dunadain (6 rpp each?) back to back during a very short period of time (a year, two?) when we staffed together, with most of them holding property and Mastership and even a couple of NPCs. I took my evidence to Rhubarb and was told to stop looking for trouble.

You used your staff avatar to question Tepes' PC what i was doing then magically had your pc know it when we came across each other minutes later.

You can not talk about trust and be anything but a crawler and a hipocrite.

[Bones]

Belthias
Amarthesgal
Asgarlanthir - Gondorian Dunny
Lalla - Gondorian Dunny
Tirnen.

So five. I'll admit, Belthias was a gimme. Kite asked me if I would play a siegemaster Journeyman, and let me app at 4 RPP instead of five. Bel also earned threeish RPP during that time. The rest? Consider we could buy those at half cost at the time, and that all of my characters were heavily involved in RP. That, plus, I was staff under Kite's regime. Get a good concept in, have a decent rep and amount of RPP, and staff could play a race without paying for it, if they had the RPP in the first place.

Stuff. You summarize my post as stuff. Sorry, Droll, not Hawky boy! I'm disappointed with you! That drivel and rhetoric I typed was worth more than stuff! You forget! He was -invited-. Period. That has nothing to do with my suggestion of 'one rpp higher'. That is for YOU kids to submit for desired roles!

I honestly couldn't give a tinker's piss what you app for. If you quit, or stay. I've build RPP hordes on 0 rpp characters. Much like I did with Van in Old SoI, and much like I'm doing now.

You know why I say quit? Because those are your options. Work within the system and stop hatcheting after staff like a bunch of pitchfork wielding lemmings, or walk away. Go track down Kite, in London, where he's using my old Steam Account and probably manwhoring his way through the city. Get him liquored up. Get yourself a copy of SoI (whatever version), pay all the costs associated with hosting a MUD, get a coder, some staff, and MAKE YOUR OWN MUD YOU CRETIN.

Cos.. I mean really.. Until you do.. I doubt anyone is going to take you seriously.

[Real]

I take Droll seriously, and care whether he stays or goes.

[Bones]

You really shouldnt talk Bones, you played 7-8 Northern Dunadain (6 rpp each?) back to back during a very short period of time (a year, two?) when we staffed together, with most of them holding property and Mastership and even a couple of NPCs. I took my evidence to Rhubarb and was told to stop looking for trouble.

You used your staff avatar to question Tepes' PC what i was doing then magically had your pc know it when we came across each other minutes later.

You can not talk about trust and be anything but a crawler and a hipocrite.

Hypocrite*. Seriously. If you're going to call names, do me the courtesy.

Now then.. Where to start.. I mean, I could hash through everything Tirnen ever did.. But with logs submitted to staff, the only time I ever stepped over the hypocrite and 'crawler' line, was with Shar.. Line? Something or other. The rest, you lemmings were too stupid to keep your mouths shut and not let out EVERY CRIMINAL ACT YOU EVER DID OUT INTO THE OPEN AT ALL TIMES TO TRY AND GET VIRTUAL NOOKIE.

Also.. Two Masters. Both worked up from Jmen roles. Yes. Both filthy rich, and resplendent in all they had. Because again. You all were too busy angsting about and getting virtual yingyong to get rich yourselves. I've no sympathies for you. At all. Especially when you muppets were stupid enough to try and rob 'em both, and failed miserably, even when I wasn't even online, transitting in and out of warzones.. Idiots.

But let's stay on topic, Hawky-Poo Do you mind if I call you Hawky-Poo? HP for short?

There was one instance of me being a bad little staffer, and I got hemmed up for it, and lost my PC rights for a few months. But back onto the regular chat. About you still being a whiner. Cos you are. Here. It'll compliment the barrels of whine you're producing.

I take Droll seriously, and care whether he stays or goes.

Obviously, I don't. I don't know the fellow personally, but for blithely summing up my points into 'stuff', I make my judgement.

Icarus. My pants, damnit. Give them BACK.

[tehkory]

I like that Bones showed up as an example of why we all STILL don't trust Staff without reason, but can we not feed the troll?

[Bones]

I like that Bones showed up as an example of why we all STILL don't trust Staff without reason, but can we not feed the troll?

Sure. Give me back my pants, come up with some reasonable and not blatantly self-serving arguments, and I'll be happy to stop. Until then.. NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM.

If you don't trust me because I went after Sharline once, around five years ago, then man you sods hold a grudge. And maybe should see someone over that.

[Canawa]

I like that Bones showed up as an example of why we all STILL don't trust Staff without reason, but can we not feed the troll?

To be fair, I think we should (since Hawkwind and Icarus have decided to share their opinions from staff perspective) dig up ALL of the old staff dating back to the days of the eastern garrison and see what they have to say about this. Because apparently having staffed at one point allows you to air out everything that goes on behind the scenes.

Don't get me wrong, transparency is needed, but before OOC talk about characters was condoned no one really knew much about what the staff were doing with the characters or their free time.

[Brian]

Oh man. We squabble like an old family. Maybe we are kind of like that. We all have 4-12 years of dirt on each other and we're just waiting for the opportune moment to dig it out and fling it. At this rate we're probably all not worthy to play/staff/exist on a MUD since I bet every one of us has some stain on our record somewhere which will invalidate us from ever being trusted or doing anything right ever again.



Jokes aside, that's kind of how it's getting here. Someone says something, another says "you have no right to say that because you did this X amount of years ago," and then someone else comments with "how dare you accuse so and so of that, you did this twinkish activity X+3 years ago!!"

The community seems to have a really hard time letting things go, and all the grudges come up here because people have got burned in the past and now are super guarded towards it happening again. I know, we've all been burned in the past by giving the benefit of the doubt, so now we have to be super vigilant, but I think we're taking it too far.

I think it would be a lot more useful instead of describing how the previous poster has done terrible things and cannot be trusted to instead offer a list of things that are important to us for how we want the MUD to be run when it comes to trust and accountability? I'll even start.

1) A description of the application process for special roles and races. Is it based on RPP, is it based on submitting a concept that will be a good addition to the world? Can I expect to have every role and race open to me because I have 12 RPP, or even with that am I not going to be allowed to play the Necromancer? (etc.)

2) The policy on equipment for special roles/races. This seems to be a huge bone of contention for people here. What bonuses will elven items/dwarven items get? It's a whole other arguement on whether you think they -should- get bonuses (I think they should!) but what has happened here/is planned to happen?

3) What stat/skill boosts do these special races/roles get? Is this going to be consistent and documented?

These seem to be the major complaints coming up again and again and may be a good place to start. I'm sure people have other ones and they'd probably be a lot more helpful than sniping the other forum goers.

[Droll]

stuff

Why? To keep the posts from getting extremely long since I was posting a wall. But good job with the deflection on everything said on every paragraph you made in that post. Mediocre.

I like that Bones showed up as an example of why we all STILL don't trust Staff without reason, but can we not feed the troll?

Yeah..I'm actually glad you are no longer part of staff, Bones. Your entire last couple of posts have been weak and childish. I brought up several valid points, and I don't think Nimrod, Frigga or anyone else on present staff, or players for that matter, is acting in any malicious manner. I think they just fail to realize how the rest of us are viewing these things giving SOI's history and need to take a look at how everyone else sees their posts and actions. This is why we have lost a lot of players already. They've had to deal with these actions before and already know the end result.

edit cause of frigga's post: i won't sling anymore mud.

[Canawa]

The conversation at this point is sadly starting to devolve into people who dislike each other flinging around accusations about stuff that happened like ... years and years ago.

I didn't want to officially be the one, but I think we need to make a comment about personal attacks being a no no to the thread being productive.

<derail a bit further> Well, if Droll would stop snoring I would be able to forgive him!</derail>

[Bones]

Heh.. Starting to devolve? It's been an attack on people since word one, really.

I didn't deflect your points, Droll. I made my views very clear. You simply summed up and dismissed them. That would be your error, Drolly old Chum.

And if you're glad I'm no longer on staff.. You're about.. Lemme see.. Carry the three.. Multiply by squibble... Five years too late. Thanks though.

I know there are a number of people on the Player Builders forums. This has a point, I promise. I'm the last post in there. From february. If you all want special stuff in game, or want to take the burden off of staff so that they can focus on some of your actually well made points (The elf gear is not what I'm referring to, but things in general on crafts), then I'd start up threads there and try to do up descriptors, etc, etc.

[Songweaver]

re: Brian

Most of this stuff has been discussed many times here in the past year, if in less detail. We were told that Special App guidelines would be coming 7 months ago, but they still haven't, and 0RPP players are still coming into the game in special roles and immediately receiving incredible benefits that even us high RPP players are incapable of getting.

I don't want to dig around in the mud too much here, so I'll be concise. This is what I'd love to see happen:

- Special App Guidelines are written, with an emphasis on specificity. These guidelines are adhered to, whether you are a returning player, or a staff member rolling a PC.

- No more equipment of quality levels that can't be crafted. How many times have we heard that this won't happen anymore? It keeps happening. If you want to give a special role some unique stuff, give them top craftable level gear with progs/minor benefits that don't directly effect the primary combat variables: AC and damage. Let elf swords light up when orcs are nearby. Let them have a slight bonus vs orcs and a slight penalty vs wildlife. Don't up the tiers. Players here feel that that is cheating, and a lot of that has to do with SOI's history. That history needs to be respected.

- Create higher RPP roles. It's really strange that there are only roles up to 2RPP. Why spend time creating unique elf gear for one player, and ignore the 20 players that are between 3-5RPP?

- Standardize specialized roles. Wargs had a lot of potential. Strong documentation, great initial players. But, unlike the elf (who was immediately the most powerful PC in the game), wargs were weaker than 0RPP human characters with pquality gear. Things like this make staff look like they favor one side over the other, so make sure that there are equal benefits and standardization for higher RPP characters.

- Find out who made the bad decisions of giving staff PCs larger-than-usual skillboosts, giving staff PCs uncraftable gear, and hold them accountable, particularly if it's someone who has proven to have this issue with giving unfair items to players multiple times. The part of this conversation that's most disconcerting to me is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone's been held accountable for this stuff.

[Icarus]

(As a note, I was an asshole towards Rishte and am sorry for that. I jumped to a conclusion that she was just making stuff up, which is a. unlike her to do, and b. not what she was doing. There was a miscommunication re how mounts work. I've sent her some clarifying stuff re: how mounts work and such, and will be excited to see them IG when staff are ready, at some point, to put them in. Also the 17 pages she was referring to was 17 pages of craft scripts and stuff, not 17 pages of "shit no one will read" as I put it before, so yay to the lot of that, and sorry for being a jerk.)

/derail

[Nimrod]

So, exactly how many RPP did that player have on this iteration of SOI that enabled him to play an elf?

I saw this and felt it deserved its own quote. I'll answer bluntly and explain why.

Zero. He had zero rpp in this version of the game.

If I recall correctly, I approached Brian about 6 months ago to ask if he'd be willing to work with us to provide some color to the game. There was some internal debate on the rpp issue, but in the end it was my choice to move forward with these 'Invited Roles', as well as 'Storytellers'.

Both Storytellers and those in Invited Roles are chosen by staff to fill a need. A need that we cannot fill. These are the exceptional players and RPP is not a consideration.

These players are a boon to the game overall and draw others to them.

It's the nature of the world that not everyone can have one of these Invited Roles or be a Storyteller. It's also a very valid point that a 6RPP player that plays an orc, most likely will not be a very good elf. These are very specific, and talented people that we have identified and extended an invitation to. We have spent a lot of time informing them each of our expectations for them filling their roles in the world and they have all agreed.

Frankly, they are extremely limited in their play.

They are playing for the greater good of the game. It doesn't matter if they enjoy what they're doing. In the long run it is to drive plots and enable the devices in game that we are deploying that will give you so much more freedom.

Their existence does NOT limit what you, as a player, can accomplish.

I've often considered them administrators that are just animating an npc, but are limited to just that single function.

They are trusted and a known, predictable and altruistic force. A force for good.

If these Invited Players, and Storytellers offend you, does my animating an npc offend as well? Does Frigga's animating the Master of Utterby offend you? It shouldn't, because it is adding something to the game.

[Nimrod]

Then the final problem.

Quit. Walk away.

This is about the 5th time I've seen this crop up from a current or former staff member in the last week. Is that really what we want? The dozen or so people voicing concerns at present to join the dozens of others who have already said their farewells to the game? I don't actually think that's what you want. Compared to the likes of former admins, you guys are at least willing to hear out arguments. That speaks volumes. However, saying that we're going this route, which are a lot like old problems plaguing this game, and if you don't like it quit? That's not an insanely healthy attitude to have. And certainly not a good one for the game.

Droll... we love to talk with players who have the game's best interest at heart and are doing their level best to be pleasant, respectful and show a modicum of decorum.

Your posts thus far have met all those points and I thank you. [I get a little heated below, this is not directed at you personally, Droll, but more towards the general accusations that I am not trusted.]

You'll see me pull out the 'then just quit' card when I get frustrated with folks that do not meet the above criteria. And more often than not it's those that threaten to quit or announce they are quitting that will see this from me.

We all get a little hot under the collar from time to time and the forums is not the best place to let that happen.

I'm letting this thread run its course because I believe in this game and I believe in the people that staff here, and I believe in you. Cutting it short would do nothing but accomplish what it is the trolls and nay-sayers and spoilers want. I'm not having it.

Sure, SoI has had its fair share of problems in the past and some folks are gun shy. But assuming that we are all corrupt and then droning on and on about a single incident, which we have explained ad nauseum, and then saying I'm not trust worthy is a good way to get me to throw down the gauntlet. This thread is that gauntlet. It's an open, unapologetic explanation of those things that I do as a Lead Staffer to push this game forward. It's not about anyone else, no other staffers are on trial here. It's all me, so continue to focus your accusations at me. If something is wrong, I'll admit it and take the blame and we'll move on. But don't expect me to just lay down. It's not happening.

This whole thing is really causing me to be that much more dedicated to the game and my overall push for integrity and communication with staff.

Thanks for that note, Droll. I appreciate it.

[Nimrod]

You really shouldnt talk Bones, you played 7-8 Northern Dunadain (6 rpp each?) back to back during a very short period of time (a year, two?) when we staffed together, with most of them holding property and Mastership and even a couple of NPCs. I took my evidence to Rhubarb and was told to stop looking for trouble.

You used your staff avatar to question Tepes' PC what i was doing then magically had your pc know it when we came across each other minutes later.

You can not talk about trust and be anything but a crawler and a hipocrite.

How about we not attack other players and former admins, Hawk? Those who are without sin and all that? Hmmm? Please?

[Nimrod]

I take Droll seriously, and care whether he stays or goes.

So do I, Real. So. Do. I.

Seriously.

[Nimrod]

Some stuff he shouldn't have.

Take a breath, Bones. This ain't worth dyin' over.

[Matt]

It's not one thing. We're addressing one now. Once it's run it's course I'll post more which were decided upon by a bunch of players.

[twitchyweasel]

re: Brian

Most of this stuff has been discussed many times here in the past year, if in less detail. We were told that Special App guidelines would be coming 7 months ago, but they still haven't, and 0RPP players are still coming into the game in special roles and immediately receiving incredible benefits that even us high RPP players are incapable of getting.

I don't want to dig around in the mud too much here, so I'll be concise. This is what I'd love to see happen:

- Special App Guidelines are written, with an emphasis on specificity. These guidelines are adhered to, whether you are a returning player, or a staff member rolling a PC.

- No more equipment of quality levels that can't be crafted. How many times have we heard that this won't happen anymore? It keeps happening. If you want to give a special role some unique stuff, give them top craftable level gear with progs/minor benefits that don't directly effect the primary combat variables: AC and damage. Let elf swords light up when orcs are nearby. Let them have a slight bonus vs orcs and a slight penalty vs wildlife. Don't up the tiers. Players here feel that that is cheating, and a lot of that has to do with SOI's history. That history needs to be respected.

- Create higher RPP roles. It's really strange that there are only roles up to 2RPP. Why spend time creating unique elf gear for one player, and ignore the 20 players that are between 3-5RPP?

- Standardize specialized roles. Wargs had a lot of potential. Strong documentation, great initial players. But, unlike the elf (who was immediately the most powerful PC in the game), wargs were weaker than 0RPP human characters with pquality gear. Things like this make staff look like they favor one side over the other, so make sure that there are equal benefits and standardization for higher RPP characters.

- Find out who made the bad decisions of giving staff PCs larger-than-usual skillboosts, giving staff PCs uncraftable gear, and hold them accountable, particularly if it's someone who has proven to have this issue with giving unfair items to players multiple times. The part of this conversation that's most disconcerting to me is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone's been held accountable for this stuff.

This is what I've been trying to relay with my posts. Completely agree with everything within. Do the storytellers need gear that is uncraftable and steps above what players can get to brighten the game?