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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:23 pm

Canawa wrote:To be fair, I think we should (since Hawkwind and Icarus have decided to share their opinions from staff perspective) dig up ALL of the old staff dating back to the days of the eastern garrison and see what they have to say about this. Because apparently having staffed at one point allows you to air out everything that goes on behind the scenes.


I'd love to hear what Kite would have to say about all this. He'd likely call me insane for not locking the thread, but I'm determined to say my piece.

All knocks aside, Kite did a damned fine job for a long time. He and I had a love/hate relationship, but I always respected him and appreciated the huge chunk of his soul that he poured in to this game at one time. I've received a few notes from him since we started here and I appreciate each one. I may not consider him a dear friend, but I do count him a friend, though he'd likely denounce me. :P

But... this isn't about past administrations. This is about OUR administration. This game is completely new, all rooms, crafts, objects... forums... everything is new!
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:34 pm

Nimrod wrote:I'd love to hear what Kite would have to say about all this. He'd likely call me insane for not locking the thread, but I'm determined to say my piece.

All knocks aside, Kite did a damned fine job for a long time. He and I had a love/hate relationship, but I always respected him and appreciated the huge chunk of his soul that he poured in to this game at one time. I've received a few notes from him since we started here and I appreciate each one. I may not consider him a dear friend, but I do count him a friend, though he'd likely denounce me. :P

But... this isn't about past administrations. This is about OUR administration. This game is completely new, all rooms, crafts, objects... forums... everything is new!


A couple of points.

1) I refer to my most recent post and its points. I think those are the sorts of things that players from Brian to myself to Twitchy to Matt are looking to get out of this thread, at this point.

2) I think that holding the position that Kite did a good job for a long time is problematic. Kite allowed rampant cheating and abuse to happen during the entirety of his reign, and that ruined SOI for a lot of people. Kite's reign took an SOI that was able to sustain multiple spheres with 100+ people logged on at its peak, reduce it to levels of activity not much higher than current SOI, and ultimately shut the game down and led to the ruin of its codebase to the point where the Atonement codebase had to be used to revive SOI.

Ignoring the pitfalls that Kite, Rhubarb, Shadow, etc/etc fell into while staffing is dangerous. The rest of the community will never really forget them, and they're wary of things turning that way again.

3) Everything is new, but the challenges presented in this thread are not new. Again, I refer to the points made in my previous post about what would help.

Trust can be re-earned. I really believe that. I wouldn't still play SOI, or submit programs, or post on the forums to share my advice and observations if I believed it was fruitless at this stage.

I do, however, strongly believe that it's on the teetering point on a number of fronts, and that too many things have gone ignored for too long.

I hope that any energy sparked staff-side from this thread is applied to these problems; that's really the best possible scenario.
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Re: Trust

Postby Patty » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:21 pm

This is still a volunteer staff right? If so, I would ask you not to shit on volunteers who are taking their time to make something for you. Who the hell could ever cater to all the specific tastes and desires of a broad group of people who all enjoy different aspects of this free game without occasionally messing up?

Do you all call your ex's and complain about how they wronged you when you were dating? Move on or forgive and start playing.

I trust the staff as much as I can trust people I don't know...probably more than my government.
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Re: Trust

Postby Knight26 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:23 pm

Such an inviting forum for newcomers!

:lol:
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Re: Trust

Postby Droll » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:41 pm

Am I offended? No, just bringing up points that others have already voiced. As Songweaver has said, you've got a player base in a game that has had some very shady staff problems over the last 10 plus years.

Songweaver wrote:Ignoring the pitfalls that Kite, Rhubarb, Shadow, etc/etc fell into while staffing is dangerous. The rest of the community will never really forget them, and they're wary of things turning that way again.


This, is something you and anyone on staff need to be very leery of. Handing the same clan to people who are cycling through dead/retiring characters, is pretty offensive to peeps in game who are still actively part of the clan. People being told that old SOI will have no bearing on our accounts, characters, or anything else here and then seeing the opposite, can be a little disheartening. Spending a lot of time turning into a combat or crafting beast only to have someone be put in game with better gear and better skills than what is generally available is just discouraging.

Do I think any of these things are being done maliciously or even intentionally to give certain players a leg up? No, I don't. I have no doubt you and others on staff did it because you believe it will help the game. However, given the past actions of previous admins, how do you think that looks to people who don't even have access to these options or staff's motivation and goals on the subject? Because it is very hard to not see it as select few just being put in with their private clans with their superior equipment, stats and skills, again.


Brian recommended some stuff like guidelines for special applications, specifics on equipment, high RPP roles, specialize special roles. These are excellent points. Things of that nature, show people that there are rules. If there are exceptions, then rules don't really mean anything besides benefiting a very small number of people at the expense of others. My only recommendation, when things are being done, take a hard look at how others will view it. Because you got a very jaded bunch of people who have had to put up with some serious bullshit over the years.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:25 pm

Re: Droll

I appreciate your comments and would love to hear feedback on the Invited Roles and how you, as a player would be more welcoming of these players.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:13 pm

Songweaver wrote:2) I think that holding the position that Kite did a good job for a long time is problematic.


Then we have a problem. I don't and never have condoned any of the actions that you keep bringing up. Kite worked his way up and was supported by both Japheth and Traithe. He had to have done something right at one point or another to earn their trust and the Lead Staffer position here. The sheer amount of energy that he poured in to the game cannot be denied. I choose to remember the good and hard-working Kite, not the one that you paint every time you speak about him.

Give it a rest, Songweaver. Kite is long gone and is never coming back. He's been broken by this game and has sadly crumbled under the weight of it. I wish him nothing but goodwill and the best of life.

As time goes by it seems that the his notoriety grows and you seem more than willing to continue heaping coals upon his grave.

The fact that I choose to call him friend and remember him in his better days has nothing to do with my tenure. I recall the bad with the good. I choose not to dwell on it, just as I do not dwell on your past.

Songweaver wrote:Trust can be re-earned. I really believe that. I wouldn't still play SOI, or submit programs, or post on the forums to share my advice and observations if I believed it was fruitless at this stage.

I do, however, strongly believe that it's on the teetering point on a number of fronts, and that too many things have gone ignored for too long.

I hope that any energy sparked staff-side from this thread is applied to these problems; that's really the best possible scenario.


I'm not trying to -earn- anyone's trust. I will continue to run this game as I always have, and that's by being as blunt and open about issues as I can without causing harm to the game itself.

As far as being on a teetering point... Sorry, no, Shadows of Isildur is not on a teetering point. We're going to remain open and continue to work towards full open. We have an incredibly strong staff right now, and a simplistic plan to move forward. What is on a teetering point is a small group of players that refuse to believe there are honest people in the world and that I may be one of them.

In the end, if those that do not trust me continue to not trust me, the game will continue to operate regardless. If you don't trust me, but love this game so much that you can't go away, that's fine. Continue to play if you like, you'll be welcome and will be given the same consideration in-game as the rest of our players.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:14 pm

Nimrod wrote:Re: Droll

I appreciate your comments and would love to hear feedback on the Invited Roles and how you, as a player would be more welcoming of these players.


I'm not Droll, but here's a start:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Sponsored%20Roles
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

After that:
Invited Roles must be posted publicly, though the exact details of that role are not necessary.
Invited Roles must follow the guidelines for equipment, stats, and skills for currently available races and roles.
Invited Roles may be available to any player regardless of current or former RPP.
Players caught abusing their Invited Roles may be subject to losing the role entirely/forced retirement, turning the character into an NPC.
Players can only be accepted for ONE(1) Invited Role a year.

So, let's say the pbase was invited to play a Silvan Elf. An Elf is considered a 5RPP role, so the Elf is given the standard level of equipment, skills, and stat-boosts of a Silvan Elf. The equipment might be prettier, and maybe it's more durable/lighter, but otherwise remains the same as any(let's assume) good-quality equipment available for this PC. He was one of many people who applied, but you liked his application/history best, and he was picked. You worked on his character, giving it the same boosts you'd give to any 5RPP race, and he gets the same -equipment- any 5RPP race could hope for, though it might be race-specific and slightly better in its own way.

I'd be satisfied by that sort of thing. It'd require documentation for what XRPP gets you, and what races are at what RPP, but otherwise I'd be happy.
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:19 pm

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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:21 pm


Which isn't how they were done in the past, and is no guarantee of how they'll be done in the future, because...

https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... ited+Roles
https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... umentation
https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... y/PW/Roles
https://shadowsofisildur.atlassian.net/ ... y/PW/Races

...none of those links lead anywhere. You have no Documentation, you have no Rules, you have no Standards.
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Re: Trust

Postby Droll » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:28 pm

Am droll.

Honestly? Kory and Risthe's posts are actually exactly how I would handle it. Make a staff post, putting out a call for something. Keep said role in line with everything else. Exactly as we would looking for the infirmary replacement. Seems like the simplest way to handle it, my opinion. You would & should have a good grasp of player's capabilities. Seems an easy way to get a list of players who are interested and then going over their abilities and finding someone for it.

And as Kory pointed out, some of those things need to be written up, standardized, and put up for viewing.
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Re: Trust

Postby Letters » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:36 pm

Apparently the temptation to nitpick at one of Kory's posts is enough to make me log in.

Armageddon is a poor example of how to do it right. I remember explaining that at length to people on the old ARPI chat. Its guidelines may look solid, but it turns out that they're just awful in practice. A lot about Armageddon is like that.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:41 pm

Nimrod, what did you think of my suggestions for what might be done to improve players' perception of these issues?

I won't really argue with you about Kite. It's not like there's any new information to sway peoples' opinions in regards to what happened to old SOI. Folks are gonna feel one way or the other, and maybe lean one way more than the other.
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Re: Trust

Postby Frigga » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:12 pm

Cory (or Kory, I was never sure), thank you for that suggestion for invited roles. That's a fair offering for how to handle such things, and I'll seriously consider that.


To clarify, what of role ideas that are player initiated, Ie - you think up an idea for a role beyond the standard base roles. You present the idea to staff. Staff accepts and believes with reasonable certainty you would do reasonably well at what you recommend. How are such things fairly considered and accepted?

Because inevitably, the standardized roles staff imagines aren't obviously the sole totality of good ideas. Indeed many fine ideas and unique or first roles we've seen were driven first and foremost by self motivated player interest.

Likewise, when someone suggests a role that staff doesn't feel is a good fit, how are those ideas turned down without undue hard feelings or ill will?

I have tried to help people work such concepts towards things that staff can accept, indeed sometimes spending fair time doing so to have happy (happier?) conclusions.

But inevitably sometimes some ideas people are honestly hoping for, staff must say no to. Which can rightly or wrongly give the impression that when someone else gets their idea accepted they are better favored.

How do you open up to more variety besides cookie cutter roles while maintaining against the feeling that if all ideas aren't accepted, things are unreasonably unfair?

Serious question.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:17 pm

Frigga wrote:Cory (or Kory, I was never sure), thank you for that suggestion for invited roles. That's a fair offering for how to handle such things, and I'll seriously consider that.


To clarify, what of role ideas that are player initiated, Ie - you think up an idea for a role beyond the standard base roles. You present the idea to staff. Staff accepts and believes with reasonable certainty you would do reasonably well at what you recommend. How are such things fairly considered and accepted?

Because inevitably, the standardized roles staff imagines aren't obviously the sole totality of good ideas. Indeed many fine ideas and unique or first roles we've seen were driven first and foremost by self motivated player interest.

Likewise, when someone suggests a role that staff doesn't feel is a good fit, how are those ideas turned down without undue hard feelings or ill will?

I have tried to help people work such concepts towards things that staff can accept, indeed sometimes spending fair time doing so to have happy (happier?) conclusions.

But inevitably sometimes some ideas people are honestly hoping for, staff must say no to. Which can rightly or wrongly give the impression that when someone else gets their idea accepted they are better favored.

How do you open up to more variety besides cookie cutter roles while maintaining against the feeling that if all ideas aren't accepted, things are unreasonably unfair?

Serious question.



Standardize what you can get for what RPP(or however you want to measure it) you have.

I've had two special apps that were accepted after being discussed with staff. They were special apps that got the same 1 or 2 rpp bonus as the other roles listed, save for one having rank and one having a loan. I don't see the need for people rolling in game with weapon/armor tiers that are beyond normal 0 rpp people to get. Sure, make them pretty. Make them lighter weight. Don't make them more powerful than craftable gear, though.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:19 pm

You take the time to write specific documentation stating what certain levels of RPP will get you (not just up to 2RPP, as is now).

You define what the limitations on new player equipment are, and make that public with your documentation.

Etc, etc.

In short: you write a very specific piece of documentation that outlines how people apply for special roles, what the limitations for skillboosts/gear/culture/background are for special roles, and then you stick to that and don't make any exceptions.

And if a staff member does break their own document, they are held accountable for it. Without accountability, trust is a hard pill to swallow.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:46 pm

To clarify, what of role ideas that are player initiated, Ie - you think up an idea for a role beyond the standard base roles. You present the idea to staff. Staff accepts and believes with reasonable certainty you would do reasonably well at what you recommend. How are such things fairly considered and accepted?

You create a generic role, let a player roll in with their concept, and then you're done, yeah?
Because inevitably, the standardized roles staff imagines aren't obviously the sole totality of good ideas. Indeed many fine ideas and unique or first roles we've seen were driven first and foremost by self motivated player interest.

How do you open up to more variety besides cookie cutter roles while maintaining against the feeling that if all ideas aren't accepted, things are unreasonably unfair?


Code: Select all
Provided below are a number of roles that you can choose from
to help you start in Rust. From fighting roles to
crafter roles, these provide skill boosts (if you qualify)
to illustrate your character's hard-earned life among the
Denizens of Rust.

If you would not like to select any of these rolls, enter 0.


1.  Recruit of Block Nine
2.  Recruit of the Red Company
3.  Recruit of the New Guard
4.  Full Member of Block Nine
5.  Full Member of the Red Company
6.  Full Member of the New Guard
7.  Slum Bruiser
8.  Slum Craftsman
9.  Lifelong member of Block Nine
10. Lifelong member of the Red Company
11. Lifelong member of the New Guard


Code: Select all
Role Contact:  Holmes
Posted On:     Sat Jun  1 10:05:38 2013

You have been a member of Block Nine for some time now, possibly several years or more. Having proven your worth in some way, you've been inducted as a full member of the Family and enjoy most of the benefits of such a life. Though you are probably not yet trusted with the most important and sensitive tasks or information, you are considered reliable and a valued part of the crew.
+10 to one skill (cannot be dodge or deflect)
+5 to a second skill

Do you still wish to choose this role? [y/n]

Role Contact:  Holmes
Posted On:     Sat Jun  1 10:06:44 2013

You are a brawler, a scrapper, a prizefighter or perhaps a mercenary, but you are not currently affiliated with any of Rust's major gangs. Living in relative poverty either in the market or the outer slums, you do whatever it takes to survive and have often used violence to accomplish this. Wherever your life takes you from here on out, you are a better hand in a fight than the common slum-denizen.

+10 to one combat skill (cannot be dodge or deflect)
+5 to any second skill

Do you still wish to choose this role? [y/n]

Role Contact:  Holmes
Posted On:     Sat Jun  1 10:07:01 2013

While not affiliated with any of Rust's major gangs, you have acquired a bit of skill at some craft or other. Though you lack both the expertise and the capital to own a business, you are able to do enough to scrape by and live just a little better than the common slum-denizen. Living in relative poverty either in the market or the outer slums, you ply your trade in whatever way possible.
+10 to one crafting skill
+5 to any second skill

Do you still wish to choose this role? [y/n]

Something of a text-dump, and I'm sorry, but this is how Atonement/Parallel did it for 4.5 years, on-and-off. Roles are just like any other character Application. If it requires a little extra support, then so be it. But what roles on SoI are you thinking of that couldn't be covered by standardization/giving a clear outline of what roles/races are, and how you get them?

The only thing I can think of is magic. What else do you mean?

Likewise, when someone suggests a role that staff doesn't feel is a good fit, how are those ideas turned down without undue hard feelings or ill will?

I have tried to help people work such concepts towards things that staff can accept, indeed sometimes spending fair time doing so to have happy (happier?) conclusions.

But inevitably sometimes some ideas people are honestly hoping for, staff must say no to. Which can rightly or wrongly give the impression that when someone else gets their idea accepted they are better favored.

Depends on *why* it's not a good fit. Is it because X clan is already in-game? Is it because it's against lore? Is it because Y player has already tried similar concepts and proven themselves untrustworthy?

You do this the same way you deny any character application, in the end.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if you're happy, awesome. Make the game you want to make, and don't worry about it. If you're worried about engendering player trust, this isn't going to reduce it. Documentation creates a clear line, a clear expectation. We know what you're going to do, we know who you are. I don't know Rishte from Eve, or Nimrod from Adam, not really. But I know you'll say you do X, and if down the line I find out you do Y, I know you don't keep to what I say and I move on. If down the line you keep doing X, I know what I'm getting. Awesome.

And even if you're happy with the game you're making, I'll say that building new spheres and new rooms when you don't have standards for races and rules is going to hurt you, and hurt the sphere you're making.

ETA:
'Nimrod' and 'Frigga' and 'Rishte' and 'Icarus' are also why I dislike the culture of taking a new name upon becoming an Admin. Be who you were, be open about it, and maybe we'll have some grudges about what you did as a player, but we'll also be able to make decisions based on past behavior rather than having to pretend you're some new entity that sprang from a forehead in an instant. But this culture isn't going to change, and if I cared that much, I'd just go make my own MUD. It would be awful, no one would play it, then I would quit and come back here.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:21 pm

tehkory wrote:ETA:
'Nimrod' and 'Frigga' and 'Rishte' and 'Icarus' are also why I dislike the culture of taking a new name upon becoming an Admin. Be who you were, be open about it, and maybe we'll have some grudges about what you did as a player, but we'll also be able to make decisions based on past behavior rather than having to pretend you're some new entity that sprang from a forehead in an instant. But this culture isn't going to change, and if I cared that much, I'd just go make my own MUD. It would be awful, no one would play it, then I would quit and come back here.


This made me chuckle, so I have to comment. I've made it plain many times before who I was as a player of soi previously. twpaige. I came on staff quite some time ago, originally as Methuselah and then as Nimrod, the last being more of a joke than anything. My Methuselah name was only used for a bit of coding work. I don't recall why I changed it, perhaps because Methuselah wasn't available? I'm not sure.

Frigga has been Frigga for a long time, it's who she is and I'm pretty sure she's posted her previous player name, but I won't. That's hers to tell if she wishes to.

On the more serious side though, asking people to keep their names so you can hold things against them seems rather strange. It's one of the reasons that we used to require folks to change their name.

Staff are staff. Their history shouldn't matter as long as they are doing the job they're paid to do.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Songweaver wrote:Nimrod, what did you think of my suggestions for what might be done to improve players' perception of these issues?


Frankly the ideas you may have suggested have become blurred with the rest right now, so I cannot comment on them specifically.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:06 pm

tehkory wrote:I'm not Droll, but here's a start:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Sponsored%20Roles
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications

After that:
Invited Roles must be posted publicly, though the exact details of that role are not necessary.
Invited Roles must follow the guidelines for equipment, stats, and skills for currently available races and roles.
Invited Roles may be available to any player regardless of current or former RPP.
Players caught abusing their Invited Roles may be subject to losing the role entirely/forced retirement, turning the character into an NPC.
Players can only be accepted for ONE(1) Invited Role a year.

So, let's say the pbase was invited to play a Silvan Elf. An Elf is considered a 5RPP role, so the Elf is given the standard level of equipment, skills, and stat-boosts of a Silvan Elf. The equipment might be prettier, and maybe it's more durable/lighter, but otherwise remains the same as any(let's assume) good-quality equipment available for this PC. He was one of many people who applied, but you liked his application/history best, and he was picked. You worked on his character, giving it the same boosts you'd give to any 5RPP race, and he gets the same -equipment- any 5RPP race could hope for, though it might be race-specific and slightly better in its own way.

I'd be satisfied by that sort of thing. It'd require documentation for what XRPP gets you, and what races are at what RPP, but otherwise I'd be happy.


I'd normally snip out the quote to save some space, but I think this post is very important, so I'm going to quote the whole thing.

The Sponsored Roles rules at Arm is basically what we're looking to do. Thanks for the link. I've only tried to play ARM one time for a very short period of time. Nothing against them at all, I'm sure they're a great group, but I just couldn't get in to the world.

The Special Roles link basically echoes the discussion that we've had about these.

All of this is very good and aligns with the intent of our staff discussions on these topics. The only thing that I have a hard time with is the static rule of being allowed only standard items (or craftable items), stats and skills.

For instance, if we're going to bring someone in to run a farm, I would expect to give that player a bit of a boost to their farming and some crafts so they could actually do their job rather than having to spam craft some low-level stuff so they could actually make a living.

On the combat side of things, if I bring in an orc to fill a sponsored role, it seems ludicrous to have to force the player to grind out skills enough to be able to hold his own against other orcs if he was brought in be a leader of that clan.

On the darker side of Laketown. How about the experienced thief that ends up taking a sponsored role and comes in to game with his pick skill at 25? His background states that he's an experienced lock picker. Should he be forced to spend six months twinking up his pick skill?

We've discussed a lot of this type of thing and we always end up throwing up exceptions to the rules. That's one of the biggest reasons I balk at just laying down black and white rules. It'd be nice and easy to say we're doing this and this and this... but we have to consider as many variables as we can. Covering all the bases when trying to come up with a set of rules is impossible. Thus we try to allow for staff discretion as much as we can and apply the 'spirit of the rule' language.

We've been burnt by language, even in this iteration of SoI, so you can understand my reluctance to make such sweeping statements.

Amending rules creates confusion as well, so I want a simplistic solution that communicates the spirit of the rule rather than providing fodder for nit-picking later. Static rules can tend to stack up as well. We have a rule for this race, that race, this skill, that skill, this instance, that instance. A rule for how to apply, a rule for how to retire, a rule for how to act in the tavern, a rule for how to respond to player abuse, a rule for what to do when someone power emotes, a whole set of rules for how to act on the forum... *breath* ... and then a whole set of sub rules for each of these, and then more rules that turn in to a convoluted mess that no one can keep up on and is rarely updated and then you get contradictory rules and people get upset because this rule says this, but he did that, then another old rule is quoted.

Nobody is going to keep up on all these rules upon rules upon rules.

We need a simple, broad stroke that covers these things as well as the understanding that just because Joe got something doesn't mean that Jerry will get it. Circumstance change for every player, every situation, every role, every race, every location. We cannot write a set of laws for everything.

So yes... a simplistic, short, easy to understand set of rules that are interpreted by Elder Staff when something doesn't quite fit.

Heck! Even the Supreme Court of the United States is split in half on many things. How can we expect to write a set of laws that everyone will agree to the interpretation that staff makes on them? It's impossible.

I know not everyone is going to like this, because there are some that just don't trust me. Well... you trust me enough to play this game and trust me to not boost my character to extreme levels based on my word. If you don't think I can cheat and get away with it, you're naive. I can easily modify stats, skills, coin, anything I want without being detected by anyone. Even Grommit wouldn't be able to catch me without specifically watching for it.

We, in turn, trust you, our players every day as well, though it's much more difficult for you to cheat than it is for us. But you can cheat in many different ways than I can and some things I consider cheating that you may not.

So, just by playing this game you're trusting me to some extent. I guess it's just a matter of how far will you trust me?
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
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Re: Trust

Postby Grommit » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:19 pm

Nimrod wrote:Even Grommit wouldn't be able to catch me without specifically watching for it.


Image

24601!

/derail
/keeping things light?
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:38 pm

These were my suggestions, reposted for your easier perusal.

Songweaver wrote:This is what I'd love to see happen:

- Special App Guidelines are written, with an emphasis on specificity. These guidelines are adhered to, whether you are a returning player, or a staff member rolling a PC.

- No more equipment of quality levels that can't be crafted. How many times have we heard that this won't happen anymore? It keeps happening. If you want to give a special role some unique stuff, give them top craftable level gear with progs/minor benefits that don't directly effect the primary combat variables: AC and damage. Let elf swords light up when orcs are nearby. Let them have a slight bonus vs orcs and a slight penalty vs wildlife. Don't up the tiers. Players here feel that that is cheating, and a lot of that has to do with SOI's history. That history needs to be respected.

- Create higher RPP roles. It's really strange that there are only roles up to 2RPP. Why spend time creating unique elf gear for one player, and ignore the 20 players that are between 3-5RPP?

- Standardize specialized roles. Wargs had a lot of potential. Strong documentation, great initial players. But, unlike the elf (who was immediately the most powerful PC in the game), wargs were weaker than 0RPP human characters with pquality gear. Things like this make staff look like they favor one side over the other, so make sure that there are equal benefits and standardization for higher RPP characters.

- Find out who made the bad decisions of giving staff PCs larger-than-usual skillboosts, giving staff PCs uncraftable gear, and hold them accountable, particularly if it's someone who has proven to have this issue with giving unfair items to players multiple times. The part of this conversation that's most disconcerting to me is the fact that it doesn't seem like anyone's been held accountable for this stuff.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:46 pm

Nimrod:
Invited Roles must follow the guidelines for equipment, stats, and skills for currently available races and roles.

What you're looking for are called Standardized Roles, and it's what has been brought up multiple times. Your objections show you aren't really clued in to what that means. Yet again, I'm going to post directly from Parallel's standardized roles/rules, and then paraphrase Atonement's take on the matter, which was roughly similar.

http://forum.parallelrpi.com/doku.php?id=races
As far as roles, it went like this:
1RPP: +5 to one, +10 to another skill.
2RPP: +10 to one, +15 to another.
3RPP: +10 to one, +10 to another, +15 to another.

And so on and so forth, with each RPP granting an extra 10 after the first.

Over on Atonement, things were a little more insane:
1RPP=15 boosts, 2RPP=25 boosts, 3RPP=40 boosts, 4RPP=60 points total, and 5RPP=80 points total(4 20-point boosts). 1RPP was worth 10+5, and I forget how the intervening ones worked.

So, what does this mean? This means if you set down standards, your objections DO NOT HAPPEN.

No thief you accept for a special role at 3RPP comes in with picklock at 25, UNLESS HE CHOOSES NOT TO PUT THE BOOSTS THERE. No Elf comes in without equipment, because YOU MADE THE RULES THAT SAY HE GETS IT. No farmer comes in without the crafts, because: YOU SAY HE GETS X CRAFTS WHEN STARTING.

It's silly to represent what I'm describing as 'Elves will come in naked, orcish warriors won't be able to fight, and farmers won't be able to do their job.' That's silly. That's beyond silly. And it's beyond silly to go 'too many rules can't do it,' given that two successful MUDs did it for almost five years. Icarus could tell you that.

Put another way, I just suggested you make rules for clanleads coming in game, and you told me 'but they won't have clanning when they come in.' The rules are what you make them, and the standards are what you choose. Funnily enough, SoI already has these very systems begun, You see that when you log in, create a character, name it, and pick a gender.

1RPP:+10, +5. 15 points of boosts.
2RPP:+15, +10, +5. 30 points of boosts.

All you need to do is fill in the blanks for greater than 2, then go do the same for Races.

ETA:
You asked how people would accept Invitation-Only, variable-powered roles. I'm showing you how I'd accept them. You set out rules for RPP, then you make the roles you create follow those rules. I've shown you how people previously did that without batting an eye, and how you all are already at least nominally doing that.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tepes » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Trust is really, really hard to come by. I've had some serious problems in the past with SoI, because of my attitude first most, but then admins with vendettas (See Bones). Been burned by 3/4 of every staff member I've ever interacted with, repeatedly, from 2002 SoI to when I quit SoI the first time. Even had a few issues with some Atonement admins. (Funny enough, no real issues with the staff from Parallel)

I strongly believe this version of SoI is going straight for the collision course that SoI 1 or 2(?) did, and will just stop having anyone play.

That's because many people's trust have been violated. You've heard my rant and everyone else spew the same crap. Yet, you still hold on to that you've not done a whole lot wrong, from what I've tried to read. (Been a lot of wall o' texts, and a lot of head to wall ratios)

Why do you hold on to things so strongly, when so many people say you're wrong? I'm not saying you're literally Hitler, but come on. Don't you even once, think for a moment, that you might be on the wrong side of the war? Doesn't it even feel off, just a little?

I've considered it. I've weighed it, and comments from staff and others. I think the majority of us who complain are in the right. You're probably the same, to be fair. But, you're not the one who makes up the player base. Don't try to say "Omg, the peak was 20/30 the other day", when I've tried desparately/asked people who were playing where the crap everyone was so I could try playing some, because I need a real RP fix so effing bad. Even went to the Guest Lounge, got told there were people in my sphere, logged on, notified and got a warg response. Found the idler too. The whole 2 people.

What the hell, man.
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Re: Trust

Postby bjg2k1us » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:22 pm

Yes, any good game or sport is much better when the referees just 'go with what feels right at the time', rather than trying to adhere to any kind of pesky standards or 'rules'. Right?

Nimrod, you and the rest of the staff, like it or not, are referees for the playerbase. You tell us when we're stepping out of bounds, or going offsides, you blow the whistle to tell us when to start, and you draw the lines on the field for us to play. It requires a certain amount of trust to step on the field, certainly, but we still need to know what the rules are. If you tell player X that he can advance to third, but tell player Y he can't leave home plate, we want - we need - to know why that is. If you're giving the other team a fifth down, but tell us we only get two, we need to know why, and how we can do that too someday.

Making standards that are visible and enforceable - not just for roles, but for staff PCs, items, behavior, and all the rest of it - is not some impossible task; it's merely inconvenient to do, and then even more inconvenient to adhere to when you suddenly decide you want to do something different. But if you're going to pretend to have rules at all, it is important. Trust doesn't really enter into it, except insofar as you'll have none amongst the players if you decide that such things aren't really important or worth your time.
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