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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Matt » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:32 pm

I'm going to try to explain this in a different way.

Imagine were plaing DnD and your the GM Nimrod. You've got me, droll, tepes, and kory playing. We want to play wizards but you say no. Only warriors! We play this campaign a ton we show up every week early and ready to play.

One day Brian shows up. That guy you invited to play but never showed up! You really like Brian he was so kickass to play with last time! So you make Brian a level 10 wizard and leader of the campaign. Everyone else is level 5 at this point and you just annoucned they've reached their peak.

So the group thinks this is bullshit but goes along with it. It goes well for a few sessions but it's still rubbing people the wrong way. You explain its ok and he's not really overpowered. Then he massacres tepes like a joke. Whoops! Tepes quit he says screw this and stops showing up. He was sooooo dedicated too he loved playing. So we all try to kill Brian the next night. You say a group of wizards show up and you rolled straight 20 crits for all of their attacks but didn't show us. Brians saved!

Eventually he does something else to really piss the group off and he happens to die while your in the bathroom. Brian never shows up again. Neither do half the other players.

This is exactly what happened.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:13 am

There seems to be an utter lack of respect creeping in with a number of posters here. I believe I have taken great pains to be polite, forthcoming, and succinct while also validating each person that I respond to as a logical human without resorting to name calling, misquoting or embellishment. Sadly, I have not been extended that same courtesy by all.

I will continue to address everyone in a polite manner and respond to those things that I feel are of importance.

Let's get a few things on the table while I'm typing.

- This is not atonement, or parallel. I have zero intention of emulating anything they did. Not one, single, solitary thing. We will hash out a simple set of rules and standards that apply to the type of game we have designed and are striving for on our own. If they were such great games, please, go play them, or games like them to get your fix if you must, and then come back to roleplay here. But stop comparing us to them, we have no wish to be like them in any way and they are not our standard.

- There is an unnatural fixation on stats along with making sure that each and every character falls within a standard that you believe is fair. More often than not, fair seems to be not having anyone in game that has better stats than you.

- PK or dominance has taken the place of roleplay for many. SoI is not a game of domination alone. It is a collective effort to write a beautiful story within Middle Earth.

- Grit is not using slang that is ooc'ly offensive. If you cannot create grit without cursing or offending someone ooc'ly, then you're doing it wrong.

- We will have invited roles, submitted roles as well as standard roles, which may be chosen at chargen.

- Invited roles will be at the discretion of Elder Staff and may or may not be advertised or announced.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:19 am

Matt wrote:This is exactly what happened.


I've read this Matt. I'm going to sleep on it and reply back tomorrow rather than dashing off some incoherent ramble.
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Re: Trust

Postby twitchyweasel » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:31 am

Nimrod wrote:There seems to be an utter lack of respect creeping in with a number of posters here. I believe I have taken great pains to be polite, forthcoming, and succinct while also validating each person that I respond to as a logical human without resorting to name calling, misquoting or embellishment. Sadly, I have not been extended that same courtesy by all.

I will continue to address everyone in a polite manner and respond to those things that I feel are of importance.

Let's get a few things on the table while I'm typing.

- This is not atonement, or parallel. I have zero intention of emulating anything they did. Not one, single, solitary thing. We will hash out a simple set of rules and standards that apply to the type of game we have designed and are striving for on our own. If they were such great games, please, go play them, or games like them to get your fix if you must, and then come back to roleplay here. But stop comparing us to them, we have no wish to be like them in any way and they are not our standard.

- There is an unnatural fixation on stats along with making sure that each and every character falls within a standard that you believe is fair. More often than not, fair seems to be not having anyone in game that has better stats than you.

- PK or dominance has taken the place of roleplay for many. SoI is not a game of domination alone. It is a collective effort to write a beautiful story within Middle Earth.

- Grit is not using slang that is ooc'ly offensive. If you cannot create grit without cursing or offending someone ooc'ly, then you're doing it wrong.

- We will have invited roles, submitted roles as well as standard roles, which may be chosen at chargen.

- Invited roles will be at the discretion of Elder Staff and may or may not be advertised or announced.


So in other words, staff will continue to grant roles to players without any rules on rpp levels, stats, skills, equipment?

ETA: And this is a game. An rpi mud. Not mush. In any game where a player can potentially take the life of a another player there WILL be need to be some fairness involved in stat levels and equipment. Anyone can raise skills. Stats and equipment need to be balanced. (Been at the bar. Spelling and grammar may need to be edited tomorrow.l
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:55 am

I think that people are overly concerned with balance.
RPIs are meant to be realistic right?
What is more realistic than an unfair advantage?
The issue is not that any one person can gain such an advantage.
It is when the only people who do manage to get it appear to be favorites.
Is there a method for randomly distributing stats that are otherwise beyond the racial maximum during chargen [that is actually attenable]?
The freaks of nature if you will.
Or the bonus skills like telepathy used to be?
Something to make a player feel like their character is a special snowflake [too].
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Re: Trust

Postby Onasaki » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:26 am

I don't think anyone's concerned with balance. In fact, balance is a non-issue here. There is no balance, there never was to begin with. Or maybe there was, shortly, for a bare moment. Then it was snuffed.

Let me tell you, Grit is not a slang word. Grit, true grit, (haha I made a pun), is the show that violence, drama, and blood make something interesting.

You can't make everyone happy. You can't wave a magic wand, and say "Hey. Guys. Be happy!" it doesn't work that way.

What you're trying to do is make a family friendly environment, on a game that's not family friendly, has never been family friendly, and will never be family friendly.

We're all adults here. We're not 8, 9, 10 years old. We're not 13. And to be fair, to be HONEST and REALISTIC? Anyone who is? Sees ten times worse. On TV. In Movies. In life.

So exactly what the hell do you plan to accomplish, Nimrod? You going to take away our swords, and give us pillows to throw? You going to turn down the blood, death, and gore, and make it green, black, and rainbow?

People die. People die in movies, people die in TV, people die in life. Blood happens. Blood is normal. Blood and gore are common.

Do you even know the definition of Grit, Nimrod?

- Grit is not using slang that is ooc'ly offensive. If you cannot create grit without cursing or offending someone ooc'ly, then you're doing it wrong.


HA. HAHAHAHAHA. Don't use slang that's oocly offensive. Well, [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] me running backwards, up a [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] god damn jet ski on flaming fire, with spikes.

I wasn't aware we went from being LOTR to being My Little Pony.

And [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE], even that is more grittier. Darker.

You want a fluffy MUD? Make a fluffy MUD. You want bunnies, and kittens, and puppies? And rainbows? Well, I can probably find a number of preschools that have all that...

Oh wait. No, that might be too violent, too offensive because it's real kids. Screaming. Yelling. Carrying on.

Falling over, and scraping their knees.

Throwing toys.

Hahahahaha. You're on a sinking ship, and you're only making it sink faster, with your incredulous, ridiculous, points that hold no semblance to what we all want.

We want a dark, medieval fantasy world, where orcs are hiding in the shadows. We want true, honest-to-god, warrior soldiers, willing to put THEIR LIFE ON THE LINE to save the world from the Great Evil of Sauron's Armies.

We want a [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] DRAGON murdering COUNTLESS CIVILIANS, including, but not limited, to men, women, and CHILDREN. Or did you not see the movies? The movies had blood, the movies had darkness. The movies had death, destruction, obsession, pain, anger, aggression, sadness, depression, limb dismemberment, loss of families, friends, and lovers.

And what do we have? Boat raiding. Giant boars. Obvious betrayal stories. Hell, we don't even have cursed magic rings of ultimate power.

So what is this MUD? Is it LOTR? It sure seems to think it is, but it's not. No, this is Medieval Fantasy, Rated E for Everyone who doesn't have a brain.

LOOK AROUND YOU. No one is happy. The MUD is down to 3-5 people who try to have fun. Maybe 7-10 if you're really lucky.

What's there to respect? What's there to care about? Where's the passion, the drive, the sheer VISION that you keep speaking of, or I keep hearing about. I can't even remember anymore.

WHAT IS THIS MUD? What is it? Is it trying to be LOTR, or is it trying to be a Fantasy Adventure game for children under 12?

J. R. R. Tolkien has probably rolled in his [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] grave, forty times over.

You want respect? You want change? [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] show us the respect we deserve. Or step down, and give it to someone who honestly cares, because it's clear you're not seeing what's right in front of you.

Also, for the record? No child under the age of 16 even knows what a text-based MUD is. Nope. They play much more violent, darker, and bloody video games, like GTA, Skyrim or Sonic The Hedgehog. Yeah, Sonic the [EDITED BY NIMROD FOR OFFENSIVE LANGAGE] hedgehog is more dark then this.
Last edited by Onasaki on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trust

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:32 am

Nimrod wrote:- There is an unnatural fixation on stats along with making sure that each and every character falls within a standard that you believe is fair. More often than not, fair seems to be not having anyone in game that has better stats than you.

- PK or dominance has taken the place of roleplay for many. SoI is not a game of domination alone. It is a collective effort to write a beautiful story within Middle Earth.

It feels like you are trying to just deflect the problems with this game by calling your playerbase a bunch of powergaming playerkillers, but I'll respond anyways.

First off, you are the one who molded SOI into a PVP-centric game. Almost every major action in designing the game-world was meant to make PVP more likely, and I believe you've mentioned this to me once when I brought up the idea of adding a second bog that wasn't adjacent to Utterby that was declined because creating an area where PVP was likely was the purpose of the boglands. We then had the period where there was 0 staff interaction, plots or staff-run conflict, so of course the only real goal left in the game for a warrior character was to engage in PVP. The chance for beautiful stories created by these engagements was made a lot harder by the intentionally brutal and unforgiving code, and staff saying that basically there was no punishment or rules against going straight to code(although a lot of players still did a good job of emoting out their encounters despite this) Even when you joined in on PVP, your actions were to shoot at some orcs with a bow, and then try and tell the PC you were with to run off before the orcs could get into the same room. Not quite a beautiful story in my opinion.

The 'unnatural fixation on stats' is a symptom of the PVP-focused game that was created. If the game was entirely PVE, it would not matter nearly as much who was superman and who wasn't. But with the way things are, people who are granted massive stat boosts and fancy equipment straight out of character generation are essentially granted the ability to destroy anyone's PC at a whim. This wouldn't be an issue if everyone was granted the chance at playing a similarly powerful character if they put the time and dedication in and gain the RPP, but right now you give off the impression that these sorts of stat boosts are only available to 'staff buddies'.

Nimrod wrote:- We will have invited roles, submitted roles as well as standard roles, which may be chosen at chargen.

- Invited roles will be at the discretion of Elder Staff and may or may not be advertised or announced.


as seen here. Staff could let someone with 0RPP roll in as Gandalf the Grey if they felt like it, and nobody would be able to do a thing about it.
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Re: Trust

Postby EltanimRas » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:42 am

Invited role (as-is) vs. player-run npc:

    1. An npc, whoever runs it, is fundamentally a supporting character. It's not the star of the story; it's not the hero.

    2. While I certainly hope that the animator of an npc finds the experience enjoyable, and while I equally hope that the player of an rpp-required pc provides enjoyment, opportunity, and roleplay to others, I expect the priority of these twin goals to be reversed between the two cases.

    3. By extension, if I'm playing a pc, as much as I consider inclusive, newbie-friendly play the ideal, I ultimately feel no compunction about concentrating the majority of my time playing with those among my fellow players whose rp styles best mesh with mine. Similarly, if my pc is a clan lead, as important as delegation is for the health of my clan, I ultimately feel no compunction about being as hands-on of a leader as makes me happy.

    4. An npc is ordinarily a part-time character. Their limited playtime helps to reinforce points 1-3, above. It helps to prevent me as an animator from becoming over-attached and over-invested. It makes it more difficult for the character to maintain close and potentially exclusive relationships with others. It forces me to delegate and to give others a turn in the spotlight.

    5. Many restrictions apply only to npcs. They cannot be freely retired. Their activities and motivations must be thoroughly documented, and another animator may take over control should I be unavailable. An npc cannot freely engage in PvP combat or even in non-combat PvP competition, and therefore need not be "balanced" with the same care as a pc.

    6. Bottom line, the game owns an npc, even if I am its exclusive animator. On the other hand, I own my pc, even if my ability to play that pc is contingent upon my observance of the game's rules and standards.

Open role vs. special role (whether by invitation or application):

    1. An open role has to be available in sufficient numbers (relative to the number of interested players with the requisite rpp or relevant badge) to justify its creation and prevent population imbalances.

    2. Both categories of role can, however, be standardized, in that an rpp level can be calculated for associated boosts, and an rpp or badge requirement can be assigned to the relevant expectations.

Anyway, out of coffee. But I don't think I'm crazy if I felt differently about Frigga-run Mirela (enjoyment) than about Angost's pc telepaths (enjoyment/aspiration/envy).
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Re: Trust

Postby Onasaki » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:46 am

Yes, lets all go from this:

Image

To this:

Image

It makes the most sense, don't you agree? I mean, violence, and blood, and death. Oh me, oh my. Golly, gee willikers.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:17 am

Onasaki, I don't see where you're coming from with this. Is slavery, rape, and anti-woman speech essential for you to feel like a game has the required grit to be enjoyable?

There is precedent for slavery and thralldom in Tolkien's world, I agree with you there and I'd have no problem with slavery being a possibility in game. I wouldn't expect a player to play that role unless they wished to however, even if they were captured. If a captured player was going to be made a slave and they didn't want to play that I would think they should be allowed to retire.

However, for rape and anti-woman speech, the textual evidence you could find in Tolkien to support either is exceptionally slim. The only example I can find that comes close is of Eol and Aredhel; but even then, it was only in earlier drafts of the works that Eol took her to wife by force. Tolkien, being uncomfortable with this, amended the text in later edits to make it so that she was not taken by force. In the published version of the Silmarillion it states that Aredhel was not wholly unwilling to become his wife.

Furthermore, in his essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" which is written after the published works that most people know of and contains insights into his further development of the world, Tolkien speaks explicitly on rape:

"Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another’s spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos."

That categorically states that rape did not and had never occured, at least amongst the elves, and if it were to happen that person could choose to literally will themselves to death rather than suffer rape.

Onasaki wrote:So what is this MUD? Is it LOTR? It sure seems to think it is, but it's not. No, this is Medieval Fantasy, Rated E for Everyone who doesn't have a brain.


The idea that dark, disturbing violence should be an everyday part of a setting in Tolkien's world is false. Violence, torture, all of these things feature in the texts as the work of great evil, but as isolated incidents or things that occur behind the scenes. They are not the focal point of the stories, they aren't something that Tolkien relishes in; it is clear to me that he despises them in fact. Don't try to argue that the MUD to be true to theme needs to be violent, dark, and terrible to be true to the world and the texts.

Onasaki wrote:WHAT IS THIS MUD? What is it? Is it trying to be LOTR, or is it trying to be a Fantasy Adventure game for children under 12?

J. R. R. Tolkien has probably rolled in his snarfagling grave, forty times over.


Tolkien would roll over in his grave at the idea of someone playing a character and taking pleasure (as gaming is ostensibly a pleasurable activity) in torturing, maiming, raping, all of the wanton acts that you seem to think need to be included; you include quite a laundry list in your post. He would roll over in his grave at the idea that sex between characters would ever be a casual thing, that it wouldn't be seen as a sacred commitment of one incarnate soul to another.

Frankly, your idea of what Tolkien would want and what a Tolkien game should look like is wrong. It may be the game that -you- want, but don't try and dress it up as important to the setting, as willful, wanton violence is absolutely not.
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Re: Trust

Postby Onasaki » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:38 am

Who said anything about rape? I never said anything about rape.

The idea of banning a word, is silly.
Last edited by Onasaki on Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:40 am

No, you didn't explicitly mention rape. Personally, I find the desire for the use of terms such as the banned "slit" to be linked to pervasive rape culture though, so I figured I'd include the stuff on rape to be comprehensive.
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Re: Trust

Postby Onasaki » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:44 am

Onasaki wrote:The idea of banning a word, is silly.


In case, that didn't register.
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Re: Trust

Postby Brian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:52 am

Onasaki wrote:
Onasaki wrote:The idea of banning a word, is silly.


In case, that didn't register.


Respectfully disagree. I see use of terms such as "slit" in the same context as racial slangs that would be banned such as the pervasive term for African-American people. It's offensive to some people; others might argue that it's "just a word" but I don't buy that; terms like these are wrapped up in layers of systemic emotional violence that effects people in a real way. Failure to understand this and to accept this speaks to a real lack of empathy for the people who are caused harm by the terms and I'm very happy the leadership here has taken a stand on it.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:38 am

Onasaki wrote:A bunch of stuff that I could not finish reading.

FYI - I'm going to edit your post for language, Onasaki. Please refrain from such in your future postings.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:00 am

Onasaki wrote:
Onasaki wrote:The idea of banning a word, is silly.


In case, that didn't register.


Wake up, Onasaki. You are not allowed to tell people what to think. A previous poster said that the term you are arguing for is linked to rape culture. It is not your place to call that foolish or silly.

It's this, utter lack of respect, continued pounding of your point and eventual shift in tactics from polite debate to personal attacks that is pervasive among a handful of posters and frankly, I'm sick of it.

You do not, in any way, represent the ideals that we wish to represent as a game, so I've removed your guide privileges.

To make the statement that you did:

Onasaki wrote:The idea of banning a word, is silly.


and continue to berate and bully a respected player over your outrage of not being able to use horrible verbiage...

... is a tell-tale sign to me that we are not on the same page. I urge you to do a bit more research on this issue and open your heart to the plight of millions throughout the world and then ask yourself if you get as outraged at the injustices of real life that you do about the perceived injustices that you see in this game.

The insistence that we are all adults, and the further harping on about us hiding behind lawyers, and countless other outlandish claims is just too much for me to bear. You're fabricating facts in your own head with a lot of your arguments, putting words in to people's mouths and insisting you're right.

Seriously, clean it up and join the conversation.
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Re: Trust

Postby Gobbo » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:02 am

I agree with something said earlier. (I think it was Nimrod) They said that special roles should be basically be considered RPA's limited to single (N)PCs. These are story tellers, or plot devices.

These would not be true pc's they shouldn't have motivations for owning shops, building wealth, gaining rank, etc. Lets talk about Brian's elf at risk of beating a dead horse. I have no real problem with the elf itself, in fact I played with the elf frequently the last week or two of it's life.

I think it's fine that brain was playing an elf. But I think things happened that fell outside of the RPA/Storyteller role. Too frequently the elf was just around to go hunt PC orcs for PVP or do bog runs. This is a total waste of energy from a key/special character.

This elf should've been a shaker and mover of plots, the staff should've provided stuff to do in the wild and the elf should've been the one rallying people to go do these things. The elf should have NEVER gone out specifically to pvp, however if PVP was a consequence of an RPT then anything goes.

Would you give songweaver a special character and let him story tell from the position of one (N)PC? I would, I know he would do an amazing job (source: Ekkja's victim). But I would also expect songweaver to have a storytelling focus as opposed to any other motivations.

This is the staff's failing with the elf situation. It was an invited role that was meant to bring some more flavor to the mud, but they totally dropped the ball on the flavor part. They just set the elf loose without a real purpose, it was basically just like any other PC but buffed beyond belief and the elf even had the same motivations as half the merchant guard (fight orcs).

I would like to see Brian play an elf again, but when I see that elf I want get excited because I know this elf is going to take me on an adventure to some dark cave. I want to be excited because this elf is going to be a character of plots that I can trust to be focused on RP and every time I see this elf it's because it adds something to the story. I likely wont ever see this elf 'hanging' out unless he's rping with someone on something more relevant than 'whats up'.

I could picture an (N)PC like the captain of the citadel actually being a PC, but they wouldn't be there in a clan lead role. They would be there in a plot focused role. You'd never see him gather troops to go pvp the orcs, not unless it was a major RPT in defense against an orc force. This captain could log on FAR more frequently than the very rare times staff have time to animate him. Basically whoever had this character would be the lowest tier of staff RPA limited to this one character.

PS: These characters should never last either. Like all plots they will become dull with time. I don't want to see these characters last forever, they should be vulnerable to PC's (yay mutiny) and they should be totally at risk during RPTs, in fact they should be more at risk than average simply due to the fact they are involved centrally in so many stories.
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Re: Trust

Postby Bones » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:08 am

I partially agree with you, Gobbo. But, the elf -did-, at the beginning, and towards the end of the last time I saw him, act like a major focal point.

Something you are all -not- considering, is that armor/weapons/race aside.. There are serious drawbacks to these folk taking these special roles. One of them, as we've all clearly demonstrated, is denouncing/decrying them for existence.

Another, is that in game, they're there to fulfill a role, and often times what RP we 0 rpp characters can do, they -can't-. Think about all of the romances (Not the tumble in the barracks, though those are fun to walk in on). The Elf in all likelihood will never find IC motivation for something like that. Doubtful certain others either.

Normal RP. When we sit in the bar, or in the training yard and talk trash to one another.. These folk often can't work anything beyond a clever insult or two out of their characters, because that's not how they should act.


As for temporary... I don't know, Gobbo. At least one invite role has served a purpose repeatedly, and I don't see it needing to end.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:11 am

Brian wrote:
Onasaki wrote:
Onasaki wrote:The idea of banning a word, is silly.


In case, that didn't register.


Respectfully disagree. I see use of terms such as "slit" in the same context as racial slangs that would be banned such as the pervasive term for African-American people. It's offensive to some people; others might argue that it's "just a word" but I don't buy that; terms like these are wrapped up in layers of systemic emotional violence that effects people in a real way. Failure to understand this and to accept this speaks to a real lack of empathy for the people who are caused harm by the terms and I'm very happy the leadership here has taken a stand on it.


A firm stand, damnit. Not only on language, but on the past practices of lumping different societies in to the unfair box of good and evil, that Tolkien (inadvertently as it was just an accepted norm in those days) did, but we now recognize as being grossly unfair.

So... no matter where you're from or what you look like, you can play a digital representation of yourself in-game without having to adopt the past stigma that was applied.

I will admit that I was at first quite stubborn about this, but after weeks of speaking to a player who was accusing the game of racial profiling that was hurtful, I was finally able to put myself in their shoes and really see. I wasn't intentionally trying to offend anyone, nor was Tolkien, or Traithe when their documentation was originally written.

It is with both shame and pride that I share that story, shame that it literally took someone with a rock to pound the understanding in to my thick head, and pride at taking a stand for the unheard.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
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Re: Trust

Postby Matt » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:17 am

Personally I don't mind the banning of specific words. Shrug.

That's not really a discussion on trust but personal preference.

Please get back on topic address the real issue so we can move on. If your stance is 'screw you I do what I want' I don't believe there's a need to move forward in this thread.
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Re: Trust

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:20 am

Eh, banning of words is a clear sign of lack of trust, or at least of a superiority complex.
The seven you can't say on T.V. are doing fine.
The N-word seems to have an active music career.
If you refuse to acknowledge a point simply because the language used to convey it hurts your feelings....
Grow up and grow a pair.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Profanity is used for emphasis as often as it is used for a lack of vocabulary.
The one is not the other.
Every point ever made was an argument.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:33 am

Matt wrote:Personally I don't mind the banning of specific words. Shrug.

That's not really a discussion on trust but personal preference.

Please get back on topic address the real issue so we can move on. If your stance is 'screw you I do what I want' I don't believe there's a need to move forward in this thread.

Yeah, discussion's over when that gets pulled out. I heard what I need to as far as trust goes. It's not good, but it's better than not hearing it, which was my point in the beginning, and all along.

ETA:
Letters wrote:Apparently the temptation to nitpick at one of Kory's posts is enough to make me log in.


Oh man. We squabble like an old family. Maybe we are kind of like that. We all have 4-12 years of dirt on each other and we're just waiting for the opportune moment to dig it out and fling it. At this rate we're probably all not worthy to play/staff/exist on a MUD since I bet every one of us has some stain on our record somewhere which will invalidate us from ever being trusted or doing anything right ever again.


E>. P. much. We're awful. But I'm off to greener pastures, I suppose. Thanks for the full disclosure, Nimrod.
Last edited by tehkory on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:48 am

Gobbo wrote:Some things I agreed with and some I did not.


Amazingly enough, we're very close, Gobbo. But we're not quite on the same page. There are a few points in your point that I respectfully disagree with.

1. Your point about Invited Roles (like the elf) not taking part in pvp. - I'm not sure why you would think this is a bad thing for them to do. Why rob orcs of the fun of roleplaying with this Invited Role Character as well? It's not because the elf was rolling out there to PK orcs, he was going to roleplay, explore the unknown, act as a guide and protector to many, to add some color to the scene. It would be presumptuous of me (and totally out of the scope of what I feel Invited Roles are about) to direct his play in a manner that would not fit with his character. [Sure, if we bring a baker in as an Invited Role, I would not expect them to go traipsing about Mirkwood].

The vision is to nurture the players we have now and grow them in to some awesome roles so they can all act as in game guides that offer color and excitement to both new and experienced players.

The Invited Role character is expected to be above reproach in every situation, patiently deal with pvp conflict, set the example at all times, avoid pk whenever possible (within reason), and avoid the dreaded 'payback kills' for not engaging in roleplay, but instead instant attacks.

If the elf has the ability to interact with, and survive an attack by a handful of orcs, then he is able to help set the tone through roleplay, and if the orcs don't take part and insist on going to combat, he can get away to offer a chance at roleplay in the next room, just as was done with the infamous arrow scene we've been discussing elsewhere.

He needs to have the strength to stand these things and still roleplay. Along with this, and I have the utmost confidence that our choice for this elf would have done it, he would have to realize when his number was up, if, indeed that circumstance would have come around, and let himself be taken prisoner or be killed.

We've seen these selfless acts already, the elf died (sadly I was on leave at this time), but I'm sure he had some twinkish options that he could have used to try to escape, but did not. I've seen other players put themselves in extremely grave situations for the sake of roleplay as well... literally putting their life in the hands of the other player. Some times they die, and sometimes they don't, but it all comes down to the play.

Songweaver is good at this as well, he will take in to considerations the specifics of the scene and determine in a cold fashion what the most likely outcome is and do that. As I said, there are a few others that will do that as well, and I one day hope to tap them as Invited Roles.

2. Not being able to chase their own dreams. (this may be a poor paraphrase, I apologize, but that's what I took away from your post). I -partially- disagree with this. Perhaps I'm making a mountain out f a molehill. I do agree that the overall vision for that character should be agreed upon by staff and the player. Talking about what the character will be doing and what drives them is part of the interview process and shaking things out.

I took from your post though, that they should be more micro-managed and that I do not agree with. They should be an autonomous unit, getting no more attention from staff than anyone else once they are in game, unless, of course, it's a behind-the-scenes issue that needs staff support.

3. Invited Role Players will draw people to them simply because of the staff attention they'll get, and there needs to be staff-driven plots behind these characters, or plots supporting the characters that they can drive. Hems and haws... once again... yes and no.

I don't believe that staff need to hang a plot on this character that he can drive, though an in-game plot may come up that this character may be an important part of. Letting players assume that hanging around this character will -always- lead to exciting plot stuff is a mistake in my opinion. Why?

We want players that do not always need staff animations, or staff plots to enjoy their experience. The game is so much richer than that, players can tell stories so much better than staff, and these stories are earthy and real, not some behind-the-scenes scene that we've been working on. That reminds me...

[derail]
No admin-run plot, no matter how hard we've worked on it, can replace, or be as good as, real, grassroots plots that are created by in-game circumstances and players. Yes... there is definitely a place for our plots, but home brews are far superior in every way. We've got some amazingly awesome roleplayers out there. I want to give them the tools to tell their stories and to help everyone else tell theirs.
[/derail]

In the end, I'm not asking you to trust -me- so much, as to trust those players that prove themselves to be worthy of playing these roles.

And in my mind, I think this is what this thread has devolved in to, so I'll just put it out there, these characters, in order to do those things that I dream of must have the skills and stats to weather those moments of twinkishness from the other side. We must trust them to use their powers for good. Those that prove themselves untrustworthy may not be allowed to take an invited role with expanded stats for some time.

But I do guarantee, that every single player that wishes to take on such a huge burden has the right to pursue it and will not be blacklisted for any ooc reason. I may hate your guts as a person, but if you can roleplay and follow the rules of the role and work with staff, you will be given the chance to fill it and will be supported just as much as anyone else.

So... hopefully you can see my reluctance to paint myself in to a corner by laying out a set of black and white rules on stats, boosts, etc...

Heck... it's my dream to identify several invited roles to play Frodo, some of the dwarves, the bard, and even the dragon when the time comes. I truly believe -that- would be the absolute, most epic HRPT that we've ever seen. But in order for us to pull it off, there needs to be trust.

Alas... I prattle on.

Good post, Gobbo.
The greatest enemy to propaganda or even counter-propaganda is open, unadulterated channels of free opinion.
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Re: Trust

Postby Matt » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:57 am

I really have no words. Is nimrod actually kite?

To sum up. I'm going to continue to give my friends ridiculously powered unfair PCs. I'll continue to help them in PvP. I'm going to continue doing everything that's grinding this game into the ground.

Oh and check out my seven year plan!
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Re: Trust

Postby radioactivejesus » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:04 am

Nimrod wrote:Heck... it's my dream to identify several invited roles to play Frodo, some of the dwarves, the bard, and even the dragon when the time comes. I truly believe -that- would be the absolute, most epic HRPT that we've ever seen. But in order for us to pull it off, there needs to be trust.

Alas... I prattle on.

Good post, Gobbo.

Frodo? Seriously?
A really bad sword with a short blade lies here.
look sword
This sword hardly even a sword. It's kind of really just a piece of metal bent like a sword. Its blade is rather short. Kind of pathetic, really.
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