Trust

[Nimrod]

An orc who considers his group a cut above the rest, while considering that elf normal is reducing the player of the elf's worth and we must take that in to consideration as well. In the end, comparing average to average is the same as comparing above-average to above-average. To state otherwise is to deny player agency to one or the other, is it not?

My concern with this statement is that you're talking about 6-8(however many it was) players over one. You're denying player agency or worth, as you put it, to eight players so as to benefit the one. I would rather have eight mediocre players enriching my roleplay than one stellar one. There is just more to draw from when you have eight players, no matter how good that one player may be.

I think I hear what you're saying, Twitchy, though I believe you may be choosing to interpret what I'm saying in a way it was not intended, and extrapolating the logical extension of what I'm saying incorrectly.

It's not my intent to be contrarian or demeaning or snarkish here. I'm just laying out the facts as I see them, if I come across as anything but civil, I apologize, that was not my intent.

I believe my point about average compared to average being the same as extraordinary compared to extraordinary stands as a logical truth, so that leaves us with the comparative worth (combat-wise) of a 0 rpp race with a high-rpp race.

History, lore and documentation support the conclusion that the average 0 RPP race is inherently weaker in combat than most, not all, high RPP races. The actual multiplier here is a very debatable point, though, and I would point out that my use of the number 6 in previous posts was simply arbitrary.

I would also like to clarify that the weightings of these different races that I pointed out as 'worth', was intended only from a combat perspective. It was never my intent to have my words be interpreted to conclude that characters with higher RPP races are inherently worth more to the game, as a whole, than a 0 RPP race character. That conclusion would be patently false.

I tend to leave the Lore Masters to point out the specifics in these types of things, and, instead, try to work with generalities that have been proven to be true. It may be worth exploring further, and your concern (very valid) leads me to question if we are doing an adequate job of explaining the differences between races as a whole.

I will keep this point in mind as we move forward. Thanks for bringing this up, Twitchy. I hope my reply is satisfactory even though I don't agree with you.

[Nimrod]

More stuff... and a newspaper headline

Apropos.

[Brian]

I tend to leave the Lore Masters to point out the specifics in these types of things, and, instead, try to work with generalities that have been proven to be true. It may be worth exploring further, and your concern (very valid) leads me to question if we are doing an adequate job of explaining the differences between races as a whole.

I'm always up for that discussion

[Nimrod]

I'm going to try to explain this in a different way.

Imagine were plaing DnD and your the GM Nimrod. You've got me, droll, tepes, and kory playing. We want to play wizards but you say no. Only warriors! We play this campaign a ton we show up every week early and ready to play.

One day Brian shows up. That guy you invited to play but never showed up! You really like Brian he was so kickass to play with last time! So you make Brian a level 10 wizard and leader of the campaign. Everyone else is level 5 at this point and you just annoucned they've reached their peak.

So the group thinks this is bullshit but goes along with it. It goes well for a few sessions but it's still rubbing people the wrong way. You explain its ok and he's not really overpowered. Then he massacres tepes like a joke. Whoops! Tepes quit he says screw this and stops showing up. He was sooooo dedicated too he loved playing. So we all try to kill Brian the next night. You say a group of wizards show up and you rolled straight 20 crits for all of their attacks but didn't show us. Brians saved!

Eventually he does something else to really piss the group off and he happens to die while your in the bathroom. Brian never shows up again. Neither do half the other players.

This is exactly what happened.

I promised a reply to this and it seems to have slipped through the cracks. Sorry about the delay, Matt.

I'm going to skip the part about the elf being OP, Matt. We identified the issue, fixed it, and apologized (Frigga stepped up in front of a pack of wolves and took the hit for this, good on her. That's a whole different story that I could launch in to, but I'll avoid it, at least for now.)

That leaves us with with the infamous 'Nimrod's Arrow' incident, which took place several months ago, yet still keeps coming up. This incident has been studied, examined, shouted about and explained in many other places, if that interests you, then I ask that you go find those posts and read every single word.

At the end of it all it came down to three points:

1. Nimrod's Arrow. I've already stated that I heard your angst on this and will avoid this type of engagement in the future.

2. Nimrod unfairly saved his elf buddy. My 'stop' command was rendered moot within two seconds of being issued and those involved engaged anyway. I still fail to see how this action saved the elf. It also implies my action was unfair, which I continue to reject. Further, it is incorrectly assumed that the player is my 'buddy' or part of some ooc clique. Again... false.

3.

Whoops! Tepes quit he says screw this and stops showing up. He was sooooo dedicated too he loved playing. So we all try to kill Brian the next night

A very damning admission here, Matt. Imposing your idea of a quid pro quo for obvious ooc reasons is both against the rules and in poor form. It seems to justify my single action in point 2, above, all on its own.

I'm trying to recall the incident where Tepes died. I believe it was Lufus that died. Was this the same largish pvp skirmish in which some were hiding multiple times in order to take advantage of the ambush skill and ended with an orc being captured and released?

I do feel your angst with the situation, Matt. It does sting us all when losing such an awesome player as Lufus. (I loved that character!) But we must embrace the bad when it comes, as that is the true grit of this game.

[Icarus]

This is coming from a player perspective, as I brought SOI back originally to have a game to play.

In the past, you've proposed a number of systems to "rescue" people from danger, or to remove them from that danger. You've also proposed systems to remove certain permanant death mechanics. This seems to be in-line with that line of thought? That's not an accusation, but simply a question, as you seem to have a different philosophy and approach than me in this regard. Are you planning on introducing further mechanics like this in the future? For players who like the danger, the fast paced combat, and permadeath -- is there still a place for them? Will they be stymied by what some folks refer to "huggy" mechanics?

In regards to introducing characters who are provided enhanced abilities, stats, skills, and equipment in an effort to make them impervious to twinking, how are you going to balance them in encounters where they stand alongside more mundane players on the same side? I'm Corporal Bob, for example, with my three newbie recruits, and then there's Sergeant Gorf, a dwarf who is one of these "invited" roles. If I go out with my recruits and fight some orcs, we are on the same page codedly, largely without any advantages or disadvantages. RP can happen, twinking can happen, but it's really up to us without any external forces moving us one way or another. Sergeant Gorf comes with us, and has been enhanced to essentially make him unkillable unless he deigns to. We encounter the other side, who does not have their Wartroll Gmog online. What's preventing us with wiping the other side across the floor? The next day we go out, and we don't have Gorf, but the other side has Gmog. What's preventing them from wiping the floor with us?

Does that make sense? The enhanced individuals will not be going out into the gameworld alone, but with mundane players. If you make an enhanced individual superior as you seem to be wishing to, you remove the agency of the mundane individuals on both sides. They are required to have an enhanced person to make an impact, whereas now anyone can make an impact.

One of the big reasons we moved to this region of Middle-Earth was because it allowed us to provide all the different elements of Tolkien in one place canoncially. You have spiders, wargs, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, etc all in one place. The idea was that, unlike in past iterations, Dwarves and Elves would be much more mundane. The elf wouldn't be an overpowered tank that players look up to with glittering wonder because in this region of the world, the elves /are/ mundane. They get drunk, imprison trespassers, party in the forest, drink with the humans in their tavern. Dwarves live in a mountain just to the east, trading and working on a day to day basis with humans and elves as well. They fight, they lie, they die, they deceive.

Races in this part of the world are more humanlike, and on the same level of each other, in a way that the old SOI could not do. We wanted to lower the bar and expand access to those cool races, because frankly people want to play them. What's the point of playing a tolkien game when all you can play is a boring fisherman? I, at least, wanted us to be able to revel in the epic fantasy world that Tolkien created and directly participate in it as the movers and shakers, not as the sideliners.

You're talking about restricting those "epic" things to a certain cadre of carefully groomed individuals. I don't really understand that. Open the world up, lower the bar, and tell a true adventure story. As an RPA, on a day to day basis nothing really sets a high-rpp player apart from a 2 or 3 rpp player. There is nothing about Nimel's roleplay that is better than Strife's. Nothing better about Gormahg's that's better than the other orcs. There are of course idiots out there, people who loot their corpses and cheat and all that, but honestly the high-rpp folks have done the same and will continue to. Even Brian set outside the orc stronghold waiting for people to come out to fight them. He didn't kill more of them not because he was a good roleplayer, but more simply because he doesn't understand this iteration's code in the same way.

I saw, as an RPA, fantastic roleplay from almost everyone. I also saw some really crap roleplay from those same people. At the end of the day though, it evens out. Soak this world in Tolkien and Fantasy and Magic, and bring that to every single player who comes to us, not just those who have invested decades into the game.

I guess, in trying to understand your perspective, I think you looked at players ganking an elf and had a knee-jerk reaction. How dare they, and how can I make it so that the elf (who in your eyes is an epic character) feel like an epic character. You want people, when they see an elf, or a dwarf, to see something really special, and you want to codedly make them special. I urge you to look at this region of the world in Tolkien's eyes, where these races weren't special or unique, but simply different aspects of creation. The elves were not made "better" than humans, but simply different. The dwarves were not made "better" than elves or humans, but simply different.

It is a world where the most mundane race, a hobbit, can carry the most terrible and powerful creation of the world to the forges of evil and end a conflict that the most ethereal of beings could. It is a world where trolls have magic pockets, and blades of old are found in caves, and men change to bears, and where the very air hums with magic.

Sam was a 0RPP character. At the end of all things, Sam was the hero of the Lord of the Rings. His power was not in equipment, or stat boosts, or a ring of echoing ability. That's what I love about SOI, that every single one of our players are a potential Sam. It is at our peril that we make a game where a 0RPP player is pushed aside in favor of a special application, and where we as a game decide that to experience the essence of Tolkien you have to do so with 3RPP and an application that takes two-months to process.

[Songweaver]

I really don't like the direction that it's headed.

This is seriously baffling to me. We are heading in the same direction we were two weeks ago except for the single point of Sponsored Roles being more clearly defined.

Is that seriously the reason for your statement about the direction we're heading?

As I've stated earlier in this thread. You're always welcome to come play the game. We hold no grudges for things said in this thread and would welcome you with open arms.

I'll start out by saying that I'm not "picking a fight" here. I've not been uncivil. I've not been any more outspoken than the majority of contributors to this thread. I've merely been concerned. SOI's path (from my point-of-view) has changed a lot in the past couple of weeks, though I don't think that everyone is lookng at the implications in the same way that I am.

It's not just one thing, Nimrod, that's telling me that it's time for me to stop playing. I like you. I love SOI. I don't like your policies or philosophies on a great number of key points, and that's ultimately what it comes down to for me. Those policies/philosophies are at odds with me enjoying the game.

SOI isn't for everybody, no matter what its policies are. Currently, it's not for me.

I'm happy to talk to you privately about the policies and philosophies that are so concerning to me, but you might decide that my concerns are useless to you (or have some ulterior motive behind them). But, this topic seems largely over, and I don't intend to be the one responsible for re-animating its smoking husk.

[Brian]

In the main I quite agree with what Icarus says about the elves/dwarves/other races in this area. They are much closer to the common men here, and I definitely think that ultimately the race boosts should reflect that.

Personally, I do like to have the other races have a bit of a difference to the common man in terms of stat boosts, but honestly, I would be fine with them not receiving any statistical boosts either. I would prefer they did but I could live with them not. I think that's an interesting question to address in itself, if people would rather that races have stat boosts that set them above the common human or if they would rather that the other races cost RPP simply because they are more difficult to roleplay effectively, or because they have some equipment that is slightly better in some ways than the equivalent that the common man can make?

My personal preference would be for races to receive small stat boosts. Let's take a dwarf for example: I think it'd be great for them to get a +1 to con for their natural hardiness, a +1 to dex for their natural skill at making things, and a +1 to int for their natural inventiveness. I am a hundred percent ok with someone rolling in with a character that has these boosts, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I'm not sure what my elf character got for boosts; I don't know if it was anything crazy but going by my scoreline I don't think it was. These racial boosts should be standardized though, for sure. Or, if being absolutely dead even in every respect really is SUPER important to a majority of the playerbase, make the different races simply a matter of RP differences with no statistical difference. I can live with that if it's going to make a wide swath of the population happy.

[Nimrod]

SOI's path (from my point-of-view) has changed a lot in the past couple of weeks, though I don't think that everyone is lookng at the implications in the same way that I am.

The (from my point-of-view) seems to be much different than the average player, Songweaver. Your POV seems to be that of a player who demands full disclosure from everyone but yourself. You demand that we ferret out any wrong-doers and punish them publicly, then point at the most mundane of issues and accuse those associated with them cheaters, yet you, somehow, are above it. Your continued insistance that you are 'in the know' and 'know the truth' along with your unwillingness to report a known cheating admin (the supposed admin who is supposedly feeding you this 'truth') is the main focal point for me. How can I take seriously your concerns, when you, as a player, will not follow your own rules and stick by your own ethics that you mention so often.

So, you're either a cheater yourself, associating with a cheating administrator, or you're lying.

It's a black and white situation, and there is no denying it.

And as I mentioned previously in this thread, I'm unwilling to engage in debate with you until that particular question is made clear. Your credibility, as far as I'm concerned, is shot.

When you're ready to come clean, we'll all be waiting. Until then, keep your opinions, rumor-mongoring and scare tactics to yourself.

[Justanothacivy]

Nim, do you really think the orc sphere is just a pack of PK hounds? Really? Do you understand that PK has happened just as often from both sides?

Really discourages me to think that's what you feel the entire sphere is about.

[Bones]

I don't think the Ork side is a bunch of PK hounds. Nor do I think Utterby. Both sides have PK happy people, but just as many have willing RPers.

I'll cite the pack of wargs from a few months ago as an example. They were -very- willing RPers, who went out of their way to avoid PK, and spared people even after a PK fight. Very well done. Lots of props from me for the situation.

Utterby as well has had guard patrols that capture, or run off rather than kill.

We'll always have players baying for blood. And there's -zero- problem with that. Just try to RP a bit, in my book.

[Nimrod]

This is coming from a player perspective, as I brought SOI back originally to have a game to play.

You're more than welcome to play, Icarus. I've always made that clear. And what's more, you've retained your identity on the forums. Please. Come and play.

In the past, you've proposed a number of systems to "rescue" people from danger, or to remove them from that danger. You've also proposed systems to remove certain permanant death mechanics. This seems to be in-line with that line of thought? That's not an accusation, but simply a question, as you seem to have a different philosophy and approach than me in this regard. Are you planning on introducing further mechanics like this in the future?

The Mercy proposal. A huge flop with the players, the idea was abandoned. No, I have no plans for anything other than perma-death, though we are looking at the damage that arrows do and the bleed issues.

For players who like the danger, the fast paced combat, and permadeath -- is there still a place for them? Will they be stymied by what some folks refer to "huggy" mechanics?

Absolutely there is a place for them, there will be huge swaths of the game for them to play in. Huggy mechanics... I like that term. The question is far too vague to answer though. Stymied in your opinion may be something totally different to me, or another player. What I will say though, is that there will continue to be the same raw, unforgiving danger throughout Mirkwood. You'll still be able to get your rush of danger and tread upon death's doormat if you so choose.

In regards to introducing characters who are provided enhanced abilities, stats, skills, and equipment in an effort to make them impervious to twinking, how are you going to balance them in encounters where they stand alongside more mundane players on the same side? I'm Corporal Bob, for example, with my three newbie recruits, and then there's Sergeant Gorf, a dwarf who is one of these "invited" roles. If I go out with my recruits and fight some orcs, we are on the same page codedly, largely without any advantages or disadvantages. RP can happen, twinking can happen, but it's really up to us without any external forces moving us one way or another. Sergeant Gorf comes with us, and has been enhanced to essentially make him unkillable unless he deigns to. We encounter the other side, who does not have their Wartroll Gmog online. What's preventing us with wiping the other side across the floor? The next day we go out, and we don't have Gorf, but the other side has Gmog. What's preventing them from wiping the floor with us?

An interesting series of questions, though I will say I'm quite confused as to how these are important issues now and why they weren't brought up when you were on staff just a week ago. You're 'in-the-know' on all of these things already. You were around for all of our existing characters that took special roles, you took part in the process, you were part of the conversations that date back many, many months.

This thread is about trust, so I think the fitting answer would be that trust is what is required to make these things work. I'm not asking one to blindly follow me to the edge of the universe, I'm only asking you to trust that all of staff are here to make this game as great as we can.

There's no guarantee that someone may not come up and just attack your character, or sneak up on them and wait for you to go afk and then twink kill them. (Yes, we've had this happen in this version of SoI).

Also, you're speaking as though these characters with enhanced abilities will have the capability of turning you in to dust with a glance. That is not our intent. Boosts will follow the standardized role boosts as a starting point and if we feel modifications are needed for Sponsored Roles, we will discuss and come to an agreed upon boost.

By and large, Sponsored Roles will not receive boosts that any 0 RPP character cannot attain should they be able to play the same race, with regular play and practice. We're not releasing OP monsters on you. Well... for the most part anyway. I do reserve the right to animate some fairly ferocious beasts.

Does that make sense? The enhanced individuals will not be going out into the gameworld alone, but with mundane players. If you make an enhanced individual superior as you seem to be wishing to, you remove the agency of the mundane individuals on both sides. They are required to have an enhanced person to make an impact, whereas now anyone can make an impact.

Player Agency seems to be the term of the week lately. We're not taking anything away from the player that chooses to play the 0 RPP character. They can have just as much impact as anyone else with in-game events and roleplay.[/quote]

One of the big reasons we moved to this region of Middle-Earth was because it allowed us to provide all the different elements of Tolkien in one place canoncially. You have spiders, wargs, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, etc all in one place. The idea was that, unlike in past iterations, Dwarves and Elves would be much more mundane. The elf wouldn't be an overpowered tank that players look up to with glittering wonder because in this region of the world, the elves /are/ mundane. They get drunk, imprison trespassers, party in the forest, drink with the humans in their tavern. Dwarves live in a mountain just to the east, trading and working on a day to day basis with humans and elves as well. They fight, they lie, they die, they deceive.

Races in this part of the world are more humanlike, and on the same level of each other, in a way that the old SOI could not do. We wanted to lower the bar and expand access to those cool races, because frankly people want to play them. What's the point of playing a tolkien game when all you can play is a boring fisherman? I, at least, wanted us to be able to revel in the epic fantasy world that Tolkien created and directly participate in it as the movers and shakers, not as the sideliners.

Yep. We're still on the same page on these points, Icarus. I'm not sure why you think these things are threatened in any way. If you don't want to play the boring fisherman, then don't. Play whatever you like, and if you play well enough, you may be able to request a role to play that elf you want to play so badly.

Some want to be movers and shakers, some want to be sideliners. It's up to you what your character does. We are not limiting you other than to put in place some fairly basic rules.

You're talking about restricting those "epic" things to a certain cadre of carefully groomed individuals.

No. I am not. You, more than anyone in this forum, should know that I have pushed for more player agency through pc-clans, pc-owned shops, pc-owned homes than anyone else over the last year.

I don't really understand that. Open the world up, lower the bar, and tell a true adventure story. As an RPA, on a day to day basis nothing really sets a high-rpp player apart from a 2 or 3 rpp player.

This has been the plan all along, Icarus, I'm not sure why you wouldn't know this.

There is nothing about x's roleplay that is better than y's. Nothing better about G's that's better than the other orcs. There are of course idiots out there, people who loot their corpses and cheat and all that, but honestly the high-rpp folks have done the same and will continue to. Even Brian set outside the orc stronghold waiting for people to come out to fight them. He didn't kill more of them not because he was a good roleplayer, but more simply because he doesn't understand this iteration's code in the same way.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, Icarus. It sounds like you start off demanding more Player Agency, and then it switches to talking about Brian and that he didn't kill more orcs because he doesn't understand the codebase.

I reject that entire notion in regards to why Brian didn't kill more orcs. You're absolutely wrong.

I saw, as an RPA, fantastic roleplay from almost everyone. I also saw some really crap roleplay from those same people. At the end of the day though, it evens out. Soak this world in Tolkien and Fantasy and Magic, and bring that to every single player who comes to us, not just those who have invested decades into the game.

Once again, I have to disagree with you, Icarus. One good bit of roleplay does not justify another scene of crap roleplay. It does not all even out. We should strive for good roleplay. Always.

Sure, there are some newbies that are just getting their feet wet, they learn, we provide them with great examples of how to roleplay, we teach them through our players just how deep and grand this game can be.

I guess, in trying to understand your perspective, I think you looked at players ganking an elf and had a knee-jerk reaction. How dare they, and how can I make it so that the elf (who in your eyes is an epic character) feel like an epic character. You want people, when they see an elf, or a dwarf, to see something really special, and you want to codedly make them special.

Once again, I disagree with you, Icarus. My knee-jerk reaction to the elf's death that I was stunned that Songweaver pulled off what he did, and that Brian allowed his character to fall for it. I was not there for the scene, but after hearing a bit of what went on, I think that this particular chapter of SoI had to be one of the best damned player-run plots in our history. It took a selfless set of players (the humans and elf) to overlook the ooc obviousness of the situation, and let their characters get put in this position.

Kudos to all involved with the actual roleplay. I wish I could have been there.

And yes... I do think that elves and dwarves should be epic characters, not stat-wise, but play wise. And Brian's elf was the standard that many people, including himself, have to look up to.

and you want to codedly make them special.

Sponsored Roles make any character special, not just the restricted races.

In the past, I've left it to you and Frigga to debate the Lore issues, Icarus, you know this. Both of you had complete control of Lore stuff, I deferred to you both. I continue to defer to those with more knowledge than myself.

[edited to fix a quoting typo and a few spelling errors]

[Nimrod]

Nim, do you really think the orc sphere is just a pack of PK hounds? Really? Do you understand that PK has happened just as often from both sides?

Really discourages me to think that's what you feel the entire sphere is about.

Absolutely not, Justa! I know there are issues on both sides, in fact, I've gotten so mad at human players in the past that I nearly blew a gasket.

If my rants about PK'ers has given anyone the impression that I am pointing my finger at orcs alone, I sincerely apologize!

Looking back at the rest of this thread, I can see how one may think that because a lot of the debate has been centered around the one event involving orcs. It was unfair of me to not make clear that the problem crosses all sphere lines.

Apologies.

[twitchyweasel]

In the main I quite agree with what Icarus says about the elves/dwarves/other races in this area. They are much closer to the common men here, and I definitely think that ultimately the race boosts should reflect that.

Personally, I do like to have the other races have a bit of a difference to the common man in terms of stat boosts, but honestly, I would be fine with them not receiving any statistical boosts either. I would prefer they did but I could live with them not. I think that's an interesting question to address in itself, if people would rather that races have stat boosts that set them above the common human or if they would rather that the other races cost RPP simply because they are more difficult to roleplay effectively, or because they have some equipment that is slightly better in some ways than the equivalent that the common man can make?

My personal preference would be for races to receive small stat boosts. Let's take a dwarf for example: I think it'd be great for them to get a +1 to con for their natural hardiness, a +1 to dex for their natural skill at making things, and a +1 to int for their natural inventiveness. I am a hundred percent ok with someone rolling in with a character that has these boosts, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

I'm not sure what my elf character got for boosts; I don't know if it was anything crazy but going by my scoreline I don't think it was. These racial boosts should be standardized though, for sure. Or, if being absolutely dead even in every respect really is SUPER important to a majority of the playerbase, make the different races simply a matter of RP differences with no statistical difference. I can live with that if it's going to make a wide swath of the population happy.

Really like this post, along with Icarus'. I just want there to be some effort at standardization, even for the invite only roles. It doesn't have to be a hard, they get +1 dex, +15 farming, or anything like that. Just standardize the levels. This level role gets, say, two +1 stats, a +15 skill, a +10 skill, and a plus 5. They also get this level of equipment, prettied up or not

[Seiryoku]

Disclaimer: I'm a lurker and pretty much oblivious to the going-ons in SoI at the moment, other than what I can piece together from reading the forum.

Just wanted to extend kudos to Nimrod, first, and the staff by extension, for not only letting this thread run its course but also for engaging in the twenty-something points being discussed. I'm not sure it would've been possible in earlier staff eras, or in other places, and you guys have shown some commendable disposition towards reading player feedback. Even if Nim won't budge on whatever issues, it's nice to see he'll take the time to explain why or why not instead of just stomping his feet and locking the thread.

Second, to the players (especially those of you who seem to be quite heavily invested in past/present issues) who've managed to remain civil and constructive even when things aren't going your way. This also requires a certain degree of maturity and constraint which is often lost when talking over stuff in forums.

I'm sure there will be plenty of stuff to rage about in the future but it's nice to see progress being cooperatively made towards fixing trouble now.

[Songweaver]

I'm not lying. You know very well that I'm not, because I gave you specifics in private -- and a heads up about the rumblings that I was hearing.

I'm not narcing on someone(s) who just tried to do the right thing. I get that you don't agree with my position there.

I'm not going to join in the name calling, because we're both better than that, and we just don't need to go there.

We obviously see things very differently, in general.

Hopefully some positive things come out of what has been both a very interesting, and sometimes ugly debate thread!

But, if there's nothing left for you and I to discuss, let's just leave it here at a place where we both agree that we very strongly disagree with one another. I'm fine with that.

[Nimrod]

(s)

Smooth. Real smooth.

[Hawkwind]

I'm not lying. You know very well that I'm not, because I gave you specifics in private -- and a heads up about the rumblings that I was hearing.

I'm not narcing on someone(s) who just tried to do the right thing. I get that you don't agree with my position there.

I'm not going to join in the name calling, because we're both better than that, and we just don't need to go there.

We obviously see things very differently, in general.

Hopefully some positive things come out of what has been both a very interesting, and sometimes ugly debate thread!

But, if there's nothing left for you and I to discuss, let's just leave it here at a place where we both agree that we very strongly disagree with one another. I'm fine with that.

Jesus (not calling you that, Messiah complex is thriving without me adding), let it go. You're all about honest debate and open dialogue yet you are the shaddiest person on the forums, nobody knows what you know, who you know it from or just how far up the tree youe forked tongue has carried you. You always mention these uncertified opinions and present them as gospel (again, no), let it go or better yet just go. The horse is dead, go focus on Redshift.

[Bones]

[ThinkTwice]

You have spiders, wargs, orcs, elves, dwarves, humans, dragons, etc all in one place. The idea was that, unlike in past iterations, Dwarves and Elves would be much more mundane. They get drunk, imprison trespassers, party in the forest, drink with the humans in their tavern. Dwarves live in a mountain just to the east, trading and working on a day to day basis with humans and elves as well. They fight, they lie, they die, they deceive.

We wanted to lower the bar and expand access to those cool races, because frankly people want to play them. What's the point of playing a tolkien game when all you can play is a boring fisherman? I, at least, wanted us to be able to revel in the epic fantasy world that Tolkien created and directly participate in it as the movers and shakers, not as the sideliners.

This sounds like a great game that has very little to do with what I've dealt with so far.

Bolded for emphasis the question I especially agree with. I'm excited by the most recent role posting about the witch because it is the first to offer something interesting besides +killstuff or +makestuff.

[Rivean]

From what I've read of the thread (and I admit, I could not really bring myself to read ALL of it), I think it boils down to the following:

1. The problem with OP characters in the combat sphere is a new incarnation of an ancient problem: ROE & RP vs Combat.

This problem cannot be solved by documentation. This problem cannot be solved by setting an example and getting butchered. This problem cannot be solved by setting an example and being OP enough to not get butchered.

It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.

2. Standardization and transparency are issues that more or less everyone agrees on - so what's the problem? I think Grommit and Nimrod have said some positive things in this direction.

I also think that this administration has consistently overlooked the the value of transparency in favor of convenience, perhaps in an effort to avoid constantly being put on trial or help accountable to everything they do, not realizing that this creates massive problems for them further down the road, creating more of the behavior they're trying to avoid from the playerbase.

I actually think that a lot of staff actions ("Nimrod's Arrow" aside ) vis a vis roles and races, would have been met with a far more positive reaction if they'd simply been more open and transparent about what they were doing.

3. I honestly think that most of Nimrod's headaches would go away if he came up with standards of interaction between playerbase and staff members and stuck to them. This includes forum moderation, complaint handling, special roles, staff support for plots, etc. It can also specify the areas and the extent to which staff has unspecified discretion.

This may sound like a giant trap to you, Nimrod, but it really isn't. It doesn't matter what the rules are (that can be debated later, and hopefully in a calmer atmosphere), but so long as you're clear on the rules, and your players are clear on the rules, things will run smoothly. This does not even require you to sacrifice staff discretion - it allows you to codify it so that players are not upset when you use it in ways they were not expecting. And any minor constriction of discretionary power that may arise is a price well worth paying in exchange for a stable system in which things don't turn ugly every other weekend.

Anyway, that's my $0.02. As always, best of luck to you all, and I'm happy to see some old faces here still.

[EltanimRas]

We want to play wizards but you say no. Only warriors! We play this campaign a ton we show up every week early and ready to play.

One day Brian shows up. That guy you invited to play but never showed up! You really like Brian he was so kickass to play with last time! So you make Brian a level 10 wizard and leader of the campaign.

I'm going to skip the part about the elf being OP, Matt.

That leaves us with with the infamous 'Nimrod's Arrow' incident, which took place several months ago, yet still keeps coming up.

Err ... you also skipped the part about the elf being an elf, Nim. Or the wizard being a wizard, in Matt's analogy.

It was the same with the Hillmen, too, I think. Sure, people argued (and argued loudly) about their barge-fort, but I still believe the core of the angst in both cases was story-envy, not code-envy. Culture, history, things to make our pcs - even when they're fresh out of the box - someone more than just guardsman #3, or fisherman #5.

[Quotes trimmed for length.]

[Jeshin]

It all comes back to player expectations. As long as people are not surprised they are less likely to be angry. There is a reason that informed consent is part of the medical world for example. If people understand or at least given a token choice to opt into something they are far more willing to accept the outcome of their decision. If you go to a hospital and they amputate your legs without telling you first (even to save your life) you're probably going to get upset.

The other reason player expectations are important to manage (either with standardized rules or just a very open policy that you won't standardize) is because people assume the worst when they've been burned in the past. Someone spots an elf on yonder with custom equipment. They didn't know elves would be allowed! Their elf is denied. Well that's crummy and now this new elf is a combat powerhouse. In creeps the notion of favouritism. Now you have a storm brewing. Best to nip it in the bud in some form.

[Brian]

Great post Jeshin. It's totally true that people would rather feel like they know what they're getting into and then be able to make an informed opinion about it. Hopefully as/if this maelstorm begins to dwindle these kinds of outlined rules, even if they're outlined to say "this is how things will go most of the time but we reserve the right to do things differently on a case by case basis" as long as it's out there you can't really claim outrage and surprise at it.

[Nimrod]

We want to play wizards but you say no. Only warriors! We play this campaign a ton we show up every week early and ready to play.

One day Brian shows up. That guy you invited to play but never showed up! You really like Brian he was so kickass to play with last time! So you make Brian a level 10 wizard and leader of the campaign.

I'm going to skip the part about the elf being OP, Matt.

That leaves us with with the infamous 'Nimrod's Arrow' incident, which took place several months ago, yet still keeps coming up.

Err ... you also skipped the part about the elf being an elf, Nim. Or the wizard being a wizard, in Matt's analogy.

It was the same with the Hillmen, too, I think. Sure, people argued (and argued loudly) about their barge-fort, but I still believe the core of the angst in both cases was story-envy, not code-envy. Culture, history, things to make our pcs - even when they're fresh out of the box - someone more than just guardsman #3, or fisherman #5.

[Quotes trimmed for length.]

I'm pretty sure I've covered the issue you're pointing at here, Eltanimras. If I'm mis-reading what you've said, please point me in the right direction.

Yes, I ignored the elf bit in this reply, because I thought that I had addressed it elsewhere in this thread and didn't want to re-chew the same old cabbage.

In short, we are going to allow folks to choose these different races through chargen. But... and that's a big but... if you don't qualify for one through rpp, we don't guarantee that we're going to accept your application. This is the 'staff discretion' subject that has come up time and again in this thread.

There's no reason for you to play 'Soldier #8' if you don't want to. You're welcome to build up your rpp and play 'Soldier #2' or the smooth-talking soldier from Minas Tirith that has deserted his post and is wanted for treason, or the poetry-loving Easterling, or a flower-smelling troll. Yes, you can (or will be able to soon) do all those things.

I think the greater concern is the demand for instant gratification and the instant leap to seeing something new and wanting that or something better for no better reason than you can have it. We can't just flip a switch and make all these things happen. Each decision must be weighed and considered to make sure it totally fits in with the game world.

I will not be rushed in to a decision that I am not ready to make.

We are opening these roles and races, but I predict, like any new thing, that we will have some growing pains with this as well. We'll get some folks in there that just can't handle the race (roleplay wise that is) and they'll quickly learn they had more fun as a human or orc.

Playing in a leadership role is damned hard. But we have some players that are great at it, and I know we have some that would be great, but haven't been given the opportunity. We are giving them that opportunity through pc-clans and pc-shops. We will have many that fail, but in the end those that can do it will rise to the top naturally and people will follow them.

High level races are equally as hard as a leadership role. It's not just log in and have everyone be in awe of you because you have a kick-ass description, a cool race and some fly gear. You have to -earn- the player's respect with good roleplay.

Songweaver, Brian, Radioactivejesus, Krelm, and a few others all excel at that leadership play, at setting the stage and attracting people to them. But they are as different as night and day in many other ways as well. Establishing these players and many other leaders so they can attract new players to their clans is the path we are taking, not the path of 'flood the game with newbies and see what happens'. That's akin to trying to duplicate Tolkien's work by throwing a thousand monkeys in a room with a thousand typewriters for a thousand years. I'd much rather grow the field slowly and with great support from pc-clan leaders and staff.

Whew... I rambled on there. Sorry. Did I manage to address the point you were trying to make, E?

[EltanimRas]

Yes, I ignored the elf bit in this reply, because I thought that I had addressed it elsewhere in this thread and didn't want to re-chew the same old cabbage.

Ah, okay. I had thought your intent was to re-chew it all in terms of Matt's analogy.

Whew... I rambled on there. Sorry. Did I manage to address the point you were trying to make, E?

The rambling was good; I feel like I have a better handle on the perspective behind your strategy now.

Thanks, Nim.