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Trust

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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:38 am

Jeshin wrote:It all comes back to player expectations. As long as people are not surprised they are less likely to be angry. There is a reason that informed consent is part of the medical world for example. If people understand or at least given a token choice to opt into something they are far more willing to accept the outcome of their decision. If you go to a hospital and they amputate your legs without telling you first (even to save your life) you're probably going to get upset.


Sorry to sound so blunt here, Jeshin, but I feel the amputation to save your life analogy is a horrible example of what it is you're trying to say.

Surprise is relative, IMHO. An equally horrible analogy to match your own would be your work life. You're hired to make 50k a year, you agreed to that amount in exchange for 1/3 of your life each year. You work in your position for a year, and make a good friend, Bob, who does your same job. You and Bob are really good buddies. After a year you discover that Bob makes 75k in a less-than-honest manner. The terms with your employer were agreed upon by you and your employer prior to you accepting and you were extremely happy in your position until you found out Bob made 75k. Does this give you the right to demand 75k of your employer? The quid pro quo was acceptable before, but now it is not because your perspective has been changed.

Jeshin wrote:The other reason player expectations are important to manage (either with standardized rules or just a very open policy that you won't standardize) is because people assume the worst when they've been burned in the past. Someone spots an elf on yonder with custom equipment. They didn't know elves would be allowed! Their elf is denied. Well that's crummy and now this new elf is a combat powerhouse. In creeps the notion of favouritism. Now you have a storm brewing. Best to nip it in the bud in some form.


I feel your pain, Jeshin. I've been there. I've worked for a LONG time for something in-game that was presented as something I could get. Our characters hoped and dreamed for this huge thing (something we would consider not so huge now), but our hopes were dashed at the last minute.

The difference between my pain and the pain you're describing above is that even though I experienced ooc pain and disappointment in having the rug yanked out from us, we channeled all of that in to our characters rather than taking it to staff and complaining that it was totally unfair. It -was- unfair, staff could have easily allowed us to get what we wanted, but now, many years later, I believe Traithe and Co. made the correct decision and I wouldn't change it for the world. The disappointment was intense, but it was in-game disappointment, not ooc demands for being treated fairly.

Policies are coming on these issues, but until then, we will exercise discretion and use all the information available to us to determine if something will add to the game or take away from the game.
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Re: Trust

Postby Jeshin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:46 am

1. All analogies are poor but they provide an alternative explanation of a situation for ease of understanding.

2. I feel no pain but it is clear some players (most?) do in such situations because of unwritten rules and double standards.


The only take away from my post is that as long as player expectations are managed you reduce the chances of player dissatisfaction. In fact as long as policies are coming and they are being published than you've effectively taken a step in the right direction to addressing player expectations by providing them with something to form a basis of understanding from.

EDIT - Original post in this thread regarding player expectations and it not being about staff doing whatever the players want but instead inform the players of what the scope of things will be. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2558#p30498
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:56 am

Rivean wrote:It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.


Hi Riv. :) I'm going to snip out this one bit and comment, because I can. :P

I agree. Completely. I attempted to introduce the mercy command some time ago, got Elder Staff approval to float the idea to the players and no major objections from Elder Staff.

I floated the idea to the players and a revolt erupted around it. No! They screamed loudly. Within ten minutes of the post being made one of our Elder Staffers quickly changed the position they had just an hour before and became a bitter foe to the idea. I let the complaints rage for some time and in the end, gave up on the idea and tossed it in the garbage.

I'm sure all those who were against it will still be against it, and some will be happy to point out that it was an absolutely horrible idea and the person that had it should be set on fire.

I still think it would have been a good idea to -try- for Alpha, to see if it could have worked. The code involved was fairly simple (a few hours at best for a bare-bones change), but we never got that far. Nor will we. That idea is dead and buried.

I bring it up though, because it's indicative of the unwillingness of many to break new ground, to experiment with new ideas, to just TRY something.

To speak about ideas for the codebase when it comes to combat and rp, we've all thought a lot about it, but in the end we throw our hands up because of the mantra: This is a perma-death mud damnit, and any change to a system that might make it slightly harder to kill someone is impeding on my rights to PK another character if I so choose. A power trip, if ever there was one.

There have been many other ideas floated over the years. One of my favorites is making the HIT command never be allowed to actually kill another PC, and to finish off the kill you would literally have to use the KILL command. (There are some other minor things you'd have to do to control bleeding deaths to go along with this, but you get the idea.)

Another idea that I quite liked was a character would appear to die to the rest of the players, but in reality he was alive, but unconscious.

Sure... there's all kinds of things that we can do codewise here, but I have zero plans to change any of it. Ever. At least here on SoI.

;)
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:02 pm

Jeshin wrote: In fact as long as policies are coming and they are being published than you've effectively taken a step in the right direction to addressing player expectations by providing them with something to form a basis of understanding from.


Just so everyone knows. It's not this thread that is opening our eyes to the importance of documentation and policies. This has been our intent for a long, long, long time. It's just a matter of them not being polished and shiny that they are not a concrete addition to our game. Frigga, and all other staff members have spent considerable amounts of time putting together detailed documents and rules, many of which may be found in the Wiki and sprinkled throughout this forum.

As the Lead Administrator, it's my wish to boil all these rules down in to manageable bits and identify a simplistic set of rules that we can live by rather than having only the detailed points of law that must be researched each time there is a question.

I'm not saying that some of these detailed rules and such are not important, but those should be pulled out when the basic list of rules does not quite work and should all comply with the spirit of the law.
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Re: Trust

Postby Jeshin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:10 pm

Quick Additional Note

Someone pointed out to me "Jeshin managing player expectations makes staff accountable to players and opens up rule lawyering." I was like well I should probably make a note explaining this aspect and Nimrod popped on and made a comment to the same affect.

Managing Player Expectations is not creating some labyrinth of rules by which staff will forever be bound and each word will be dissected and held against them at a later date. That is one option but it can be so much simpler.

Whatever Nimrod (and staff) decide the policies will be is what they will be. What matters is that they are published. If he states "We will have invite only roles, we will not publicly announce them, and they will get boosts as we see fit." well then if you don't like it that's okay but he has given you an expectation. You can expect them to do that. He has fulfilled his obligation as a Game Lead to give you an understanding, framework, or touchstone from which to operate under the game.

In the same vein if Nimrod (and staff) come out and say "All roles will be open to public applications, all boosts will come with an equalivant downset somewhere else, and all equipment will be achievable via player craft." That is also a clear touchstone, framework, and understanding for players to derive their expectations. You may not like this one either.

The point is once you know what you are getting into the continued presence of you as a player is consent that you acknowledge the situation is thus and you are playing anyway.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:15 pm

Brian wrote:"this is how things will go most of the time but we reserve the right to do things differently on a case by case basis" as long as it's out there you can't really claim outrage and surprise at it.


This then begs the question of whether we should have opened the doors to play at all until everything was all hashed out?

I say no. Hopefully everyone has had a lot of fun, and Alpha is actually doing it's job. Even this thread is doing its job by solidifying staff's vision and communicating it to players.

It's an ever-evolving world, one we wish players to help mold, but we will not allow it to be anarchy.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:20 pm

Jeshin wrote:Quick Additional Note

Someone pointed out to me "Jeshin managing player expectations makes staff accountable to players and opens up rule lawyering." I was like well I should probably make a note explaining this aspect and Nimrod popped on and made a comment to the same affect.

Managing Player Expectations is not creating some labyrinth of rules by which staff will forever be bound and each word will be dissected and held against them at a later date. That is one option but it can be so much simpler.

Whatever Nimrod (and staff) decide the policies will be is what they will be. What matters is that they are published. If he states "We will have invite only roles, we will not publicly announce them, and they will get boosts as we see fit." well then if you don't like it that's okay but he has given you an expectation. You can expect them to do that. He has fulfilled his obligation as a Game Lead to give you an understanding, framework, or touchstone from which to operate under the game.

In the same vein if Nimrod (and staff) come out and say "All roles will be open to public applications, all boosts will come with an equalivant downset somewhere else, and all equipment will be achievable via player craft." That is also a clear touchstone, framework, and understanding for players to derive their expectations. You may not like this one either.

The point is once you know what you are getting into the continued presence of you as a player is consent that you acknowledge the situation is thus and you are playing anyway.


Well said. I agree completely. It's obvious players are wanting that set of rules, and we will comply eventually. When? you ask. Whenever they are ready to be published. That is the only answer I can promise. Until then, we continue as we are now.
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Re: Trust

Postby tehkory » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:47 pm

The difference between my pain and the pain you're describing above is that even though I experienced ooc pain and disappointment in having the rug yanked out from us, we channeled all of that in to our characters rather than taking it to staff and complaining that it was totally unfair.

Concerning thought, Nimrod. As an Administrator of an RPI--infact the HEAD Administrator of an RPI--you do need to realize and respect that while that's how some people play, it's not how others play. It's similar to acting, honestly, and Songweaver's a good source for more of this. This is along the lines of Classical Acting, I'd say: you take some of your life and use it to improve your character.

But some of us don't work along those lines. For some of us, OOC is and always will be OOC, and IC is and always will be IC, and never shall the twain meet. It's not my way of doing things, and I myself always try and temper IC reactions with a consideration of others' OOC enjoyment(though I'm poor at it). For some that's anathema, much as for some being OOCly disappointed isn't something that should be reflected IC. It's not necessarily wrong, or a bad way of roleplaying, just a different style.

I particularly try to avoid OOC frustration being put into my character, because I don't think other people's enjoyment or characters should be subjected to my changing bad moods. If I didn't enjoy a scene OOCly, that's not something my character needs to express. My character needs to express MY CHARACTER's emotions. I once spent an entire week with my PC complaining about an upcoming RPT, one that I was personally looking forward to, because ICly, that's what was felt. The forums are where I'm going to express OOC opinions.

More on-topic, like a lot of people are pointing out, the best part of this thread--one that changed and improved my otherwise uninformed, mostly neutral opinion of you in many ways--is that you're willing to take and weather even vitriolic criticism, and put out your vision of the game for the future, even if it is uncompromising and something that concerns me.

That said, you intending to produce documentation is going to level out some of those concerns. But we'll see. For now I forum-lurk, as opposed to 'forum-lurk and play five hours a week.' Not such a major loss.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:16 pm

Mats neeeded:

a tilling board - suggested as a tool that can be bought from the A.U.
1 plank of ironwood of yew (2 for longbow variation)
2 hide glue squares (4 for longbow variation)
workbench
3 leather laces (4 for longbow variation)
3 raw raw sinew (5 for longbow variation)
1 large square of silverskin (suggested as an object produced from the stripping of a deer, buck, or stag carcass; either variation using the same amount)
1 length of bowstring
1 basic shortbow grip (longbow grip for variation)
a utility knife


Step by step assembly:

1. Marking your cuts on the ironwood(yew) plank at a broad workbench.
2. Using a saw, you cut along the marked lines on a plank of ironwood(yew), allowing for a rough, untapered shape of a stave. (suggested Ameteur woodcraft skill check)
3. Prepare the steam box and lay out your rough bow length, allowing the wood to accept the steam and waiting as the stave begins to bend to the desired curve.
4. Once the stave has been bent to its desired shape and dried sufficiently, you use a file from a broad workbench, and carefully shape a diagonal groove at each end of the stave to shape the notches for the bowstring. (suggested Familiar woodcraft skill check)
5. After sanding each new notch smooth, you string the bow with a length of sinew bowstring and place it centered on a simple tilling board
6. Upon loosely stringing the bow, you rest the center against the saddle of a simple tilling board and lock the string in place on the board's first position, carving the belly of the bow to its proper shape. (suggested Talented woodcraft skill check)
7. Taking advantage of a simple tillering board, you tighten the string again so that the bows proper curve starts to become visible. You work on the face of the bow now, shaving thin pieces away until you're happy with the arched shape. With that completed, you then brush some of the hide glue along the entire length of the curve. After, you carefully wrap it all in 1 large square of silverskin, making certain there is no trapped air and that all is secured. (suggested Talented woodcraft skill check)
8. You unstring the bow, moving back to a broad workbench to finish sanding the bow to a perfect grade before using a metal file to shape a small, thin section from the middle of the bow to form the arrow-rest.
9. Using # square of hide glue, you secure the lengths of raw sinew to the belly of the bow, assuring it's flat with no air or gaps, sitting back to let it dry. Once dried, you take up your utility knife and trim away all excess glue.
10. With all parts dried, carved, curved, wrapped and prepared, you take up your bow grip and secure it into place before braiding your leather laces into place for a more secure handhold; making sure not to wrap over the nock-point. Now finished, you set out a sturdily-built, recurved ironwood (yew) composite shortbow(longbow)

product: a stout, recurved ironwood(yew) composite shortbow(longbow)
Timer: 9 hours

Suggested craft in conjunction with the above:

Condition shortbow/longbow (suggested general craft)

Mats:
a small wooden jar of linseed oil, hop, barley, walnut, chestnut or olive oil (partial comsumption based on size)

Steps per usage:

1. Taking your bow in one hand, you dip a brush into a small wooden jar of oil type, and brush it along the length of the ranged weapon.
2. Once finished with both sides, the wooden components are now properly conditioned. You now hold a conditioned, bowtypehere

product: a conditioned bowtype
No timer

Craft sent by two players close to around two months ago, if not more in hopes of having a better -craftable- bow only for it to be turned into a prize for something and set to noncraftable. Not to mention that numerous and I mean quite a few other crafts would be donated to the game if a particular RPA hadn't been known for either taking a particular players ideas and turning it into their own or just taking the actual written craft/description and changing one or two words and claiming it as their own as well, and by a few I mean close to ten. Fully written and fleshed out crafts ready to go for the betterment of items ig at this moment in time, that this particular player will never send in due to what I previously mentioned. Just some food for thought with some of the other, more creative players trust issues.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:39 pm

Not to mention, Staff saying one thing about something and then another particular staffer. Not going to name names, goes around and does the opposite without a single word towards the player as to why said action was done, and without bothering to spend the two seconds to say whatever happened to correlate to the player.
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Re: Trust

Postby Songweaver » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:47 pm

tehkory wrote:Concerning thought, Nimrod. As an Administrator of an RPI--infact the HEAD Administrator of an RPI--you do need to realize and respect that while that's how some people play, it's not how others play. It's similar to acting, honestly, and Songweaver's a good source for more of this. This is along the lines of Classical Acting, I'd say: you take some of your life and use it to improve your character.


Right. A little off-topic, but probably worth a post, since Kory mentioned that I might have perspective on this. Not surprisingly, I do. :p

A few terms that really do translate well from the stage to roleplay:

-------

The Outside-in-Actor focuses his energy and performance on the physical definitions of a character. How does he move? What does his voice sound like? Do his gestures extend from his head, or his hip, or his chest? Does he slash as he gestures, or does he flick? Where in his body is his center of gravity? The Outside-in-Actor then uses those physical definitions as the roadmap to determine the character's inner-workings. Very often, this type of actor makes for a very strong comedic actor, or detailed character actor.

You see this a lot in roleplay. A new character starts off as something of a cartoon, with heavy emphasis on the physical workings of him. Over time, those traits become more defined, and begin to inform the internal mechanisms of the character.

The Inside-out-Actor focuses his energy and performance on the internal mechanisms of a character. What are his emotional buttons? What are his goals? What are his strategies for achieving those goals? What are his points-of-view on other characters, on rules, on society, on nature, on everything? The Inside-out-Actor studies his character like a book, defines how his neurons jump from place to place, and then applies the lessons of those definitions to the character's physical manifestations.

You see this less often in roleplay. When you do see it, it is often with a character that does very little to begin with, but instead focuses on reacting (through thoughts and actions) to the world around them. As the character becomes more defined, physical traits and proactivity becomes more possible for the character.

The Method Actor strives to first understand his character through a process that is not too different than the Inside-out-Actor's. Once he does, he does whatever is in his power to affect his emotional and mental state, whether it be from forcing outside stimuli upon himself, or forcing himself to take on the traits of his character in real life to increase his comfort in playing the character. The Method Actor relies heavily on Strasberg's method of Emotional Recall, where he uses intense real life memories to force himself into a mindset closer to his character's. The Method Actor wants nothing more than to literally become his character for the duration of his performance. These actors tend to be the most insane, and sometimes, the most brilliant of the bunch.

You see some elements of this with roleplayers. Some few do use emotional recall when playing a scene. More commonly, roleplayers will use outside stimuli (like music) to try to help them feel as their character feels.

The Meisner Actor rebukes the ideals of the Method Actor. While the Meisner Actor's initial process is similar to the Inside-out-Actor's process, just like the Method Actor's, there is a much more studious approach applied here. The Meisner Actor seeks to understand their character so very well that they would know how their character would react to any given situation. Most importantly, the Meisner Actor believes that the primary tenant of acting is literal action. They score their script into beats, and define clear "action verbs" for every beat so that they allow for no nebulousness in their performance. They choose actions that support their character's short-term and long-term goals, and are often-times at odds with the other characters (who have their own, opposing "actions").

You see this approach at work with roleplayers, and often-times very good ones. They define their character's goals clearly, and then challenge other characters with meaningful conflict to achieve those goals -- knowing that the heart of a "good scene" demands multiple forces with opposing actions and goals to create exciting conflict. These types of actors/roleplayers think a lot, because it is the intellectual process of their characters that is most meaningful to them. Because the Meisner Actor is so intellectually focused, they can sometimes struggle to retain their clarity of purpose with unintelligent or "off-the-wall" characters.

The Natural (or "Hollywood") Actor makes a career out of manifesting their own natural personality in exaggerated ways, and then studying their character just enough to be able to shift their real life point-of-view only so much as is necessary by the script.

This is a very common trait in roleplayers. When a player tends to have many characters with very similar traits, without much variety in terms of speaking patterns or goals, it is because they are most often basing their characters off of an idealized version of themselves. While less nuanced in many cases, I don't see this type of roleplayer as a "bad roleplayer". They are simply strongest and most comfortable when playing a character that they are very, very familiar with.

-------

These "actor archtypes" don't encompass every specific approach to acting, but they do show the full range of approaches, generally. What's most important, I guess, is that no suggested approach to acting encourages actors to take their real life frustration and apply it to their character, unless it is appropriate. Method Actors do use emotional recall, but they use it for very specific purposes and in very strategic ways.

I'm not sure that Nimrod was trying to say that he let his OOC frustration bleed into his character's IC inappropriately. I don't know the situation he's speaking of, so I have no clue at all.

That said, I would not encourage folks to transplant their reactive, real life emotional states directly onto their character, unless they come to realize that there is such parallel there that they would be amiss not to. Often-times, it isn't appropriate, and it can water down the consistency of your character.
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Re: Trust

Postby Gobbo » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:56 pm

That post by SW about the craft-able bow..I want to know what the other side of the story is with that?

Having a full blown craft written out with an object made to help fill out a craft-set...only to take it and make a custom item for one individual that adds nothing to the game as a whole? Is this really what happened? Who the hell is in charge of that?

Please tell me this is not what happened.
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:09 pm

It is an elven design. I didn't rush putting a craft on it when we don't have any elf PC crafters to actually craft it. Instead I went for putting in crafts that present PCs can actually make use of.

That said, there was a design submitted by a player for a human equivalent not as a Mastercraft but as a suggestion. Mastercraft submissions come first to be put in, beyond what I am already working on to flesh out present crafts sets or put into play craft sets that presently do not exist but are necessary for function, balance and tangibility of the game world.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:19 pm

The design was fleshed out and made with full intentions of being craftable by Human PCs with the knowledge that there are indeed no crafters. The craft was made in hopes of giving everyone a better bow, not just a select few people of whoevers choosing because they were tired of a few people getting superb stuff while we all were just using the standard. Don't get me wrong, I like the next guy likes getting one of a kind gear (the one time I got it) albeit mine just being pretty to look at. I do however understand that when someone donates something for the betterment of everyone, it is kind of off putting when it is giving to one or two people. (Appologies I had a much larger and more indepth thing written, but my mousepad has ruined something good once more.)
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You feel a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach as the mushrooms hit.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:13 pm

Forgive me for snipping here, Cory, it's not my intent to use things out of context. If it comes across that way, please point it out and I'll correct it right away.

tehkory wrote:But some of us don't work along those lines. For some of us, OOC is and always will be OOC, and IC is and always will be IC, and never shall the twain meet. It's not my way of doing things, and I myself always try and temper IC reactions with a consideration of others' OOC enjoyment(though I'm poor at it). For some that's anathema, much as for some being OOCly disappointed isn't something that should be reflected IC. It's not necessarily wrong, or a bad way of roleplaying, just a different style.

Thanks for this, Cory. Seriously, I'm not trying to be snarky either. I do always try my best to understand that some people roleplay differently than I do, I have preached for the last year that we should allow players to play the way they want, and to allow groups that wish to play exclusively together to do just that. For me, I WANT people to express themselves in natural way that they ENJOY. To play with their friends, found their own clan, close the doors and have fun together. Whatever goes on behind closed doors is your business, well... within reason and as long as it stays within the realms of the gameworld we have provided.

My theory is that if we allow natural leaders, such as Songweaver (though we often butt heads) to establish their own clans and draw players to them and grow their clans, that they can have a ton of fun AND when they do venture out of their clan halls, which they -will- have to do if they want to keep their shops and such, they will interact with other groups of players. We're working very hard to design a game that forces some interaction with the outside world, but very little. Our focus is on -encouraging- that interaction with individuals outside your clan.

The angst that I often feel with the different 'styles' of play though, is when IC circumstances immediately become ooc issues, either on the forums, or petitions, or support tickets. I'm not laying this issue at your feet, Cory, please don't get me wrong. I'm speaking in generalities here.

So... in the end, I think we both agree on the matter. I just may do a horrible job of conveying what I'm trying to say and it may come across as an attack on an individual's style.

So... thank you. I will attempt to keep this in mind in the future when dealing with these kinds of things.

tehkory wrote:I particularly try to avoid OOC frustration being put into my character, because I don't think other people's enjoyment or characters should be subjected to my changing bad moods. If I didn't enjoy a scene OOCly, that's not something my character needs to express. My character needs to express MY CHARACTER's emotions. I once spent an entire week with my PC complaining about an upcoming RPT, one that I was personally looking forward to, because ICly, that's what was felt. The forums are where I'm going to express OOC opinions.

This is an -extremely- difficult thing to do, Cory. If you're successful at it, you're a much better roleplayer than I am, because I know for a fact that my ooc mood often times finds its way to my character.

tehkory wrote:More on-topic, like a lot of people are pointing out, the best part of this thread--one that changed and improved my otherwise uninformed, mostly neutral opinion of you in many ways--is that you're willing to take and weather even vitriolic criticism, and put out your vision of the game for the future, even if it is uncompromising and something that concerns me.

Well thanks for that, Cory, I appreciate it. My determination to listen to, and try to respond to as many posts as I could has brought a calm to me over the last five days or so. It's allowed me to step outside of my passionate thoughts and try to put myself in to other people's shoes. I don't always do a good job of it, but I try, damnit. *wink*

I too, appreciate the basic calmness of most of the posters in this thread.

I think I understand your concern at my being so stubborn on a few things, Cory. I would only try to assure you that the main reasoning for my stubborn behavior is that I simply refuse to paint myself in to a corner on some things. I refuse to put myself in to a position where if I say 'yes, I'll do that' and I know that in the future I may have to modify that rule. (If that were to happen, I know that many would attack my modification and say I'm wishy washy, or a liar or worse.)

I would also like to point out that on those points where I state 'at staff discretion' that Elder Staff are discussing ways to internally regulate these things as well as how we will deal with exceptions to the rule. I firmly believe that these internal regulations do not need to be made public, hence my stubborn stance on the 'staff discretion' point on several things. So please don't think that I'm looking for a way to cheat the system.

For me, it's all about creating a solid set of rules that we can give to players (along with the staff discretion stuff) and being absolutely consistent in following those rules. I do not want a lot of addenda to the rules, changes or exceptions. I want to be absolutely consistent, and in order to achieve that, the rules need to be fully worked out, considered and debated.

Of course that's not the only reason we've not posted our rules for all things. The reason, mostly, is that we've just not gotten around to it yet and it's been pushed this way and that way. It's just gotten lost in the shuffle of the whirlwind of building the game and running the game.

In hind sight, I like to think that I would have delayed the opening of the game so we could take the time to discuss these things and get a better set of rules in place before we opened. I admit, I was the one mostly responsible for opening when we did. Why? Because I was just so damned excited to get some players in game and let them roleplay. I was literally giddy with glee when Krelm was the very first player to officially be 'in-game'. It was some heady stuff and we had a ton of fun for quite a long time. Then the realization descended on us that we had a TON of work left to do. We tried to balance building with RPA duties and one would often suffer because of the other.

But when you think about it, perhaps that was the best thing for the new version of SoI. Maybe we, as staffers, needed this turmoil to fully understand what it was we were making. I know that I've really modified a lot of my thinking on individual bits because of Alpha, though the overall vision for the game that Frigga, Icarus and I envisioned still exists and burns brightly in my mind.

So... though it's been a struggle, and many folks, including myself, have been put through a lot, and we've gotten really mad, we've had some really great times too and we've learned a lot. I've really learned how to just slow down, consider the past and try to draw conclusions based on all the facts, as well as player input. We don't want to be a game that bends to all player demands, but that doesn't mean we don't listen and consider.

tehkory wrote:That said, you intending to produce documentation is going to level out some of those concerns. But we'll see. For now I forum-lurk, as opposed to 'forum-lurk and play five hours a week.' Not such a major loss.


It is a major loss to me, Cory. I hate seeing great players leave over ooc disagreements. I won't pay lip service (lie) to you and tell you we're going to make this game exactly how you want it, or incorporate all your ideas and demands. Trying to do everything will ultimately lead to broken promises. Good intentions are not enough, thus my unwillingness to budge on certain issues and be very stingy with my promises. I will tell you though, that I'm doing my level best to provide the tools and guidance for our awesome staffers to create a vast gameworld where you can dream and chase those dreams.

It's extremely humbling and an honor to be the Lead Staffer here. I'm not the smartest, by far, nor the hardest working, by far... (our staff amazes me every single day). But I am not so humble to say that I cannot do this job. I can. And will. But I cannot do it alone. I do not intend to try to be the master of all in this game. I intend to provide leadership that takes advantage of all of our talents and gives power to those that are best suited and let them wield that talent, both with staff and players. Along with that, I will take responsibility for everything that goes on with staff. If we make a mistake, we will apologize, correct the situation and move on.

I'll never shrink away from the facts. If I've mucked something up, I'll own it and hopefully we can all move on and build the world we dream of. I won't bend to pressure and just tell you want to hear. I'll give you the hard facts when I can and if I can't, I'll simply tell you no.

Good grief! There I go rambling again... :oops:
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:24 pm

Songweaver wrote:Some cool stuff about acting.


This post deserves its own thread and is most interesting.

If I could only get you, Songweaver, to stop worrying about staff and concentrate on playing and helping others play well, we'd all be so much better off.

That was a damned fine post. But now I have to yell at you for the derail!

:i:
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:38 pm

Tykanis wrote:The design was fleshed out and made with full intentions of being craftable by Human PCs with the knowledge that there are indeed no crafters. The craft was made in hopes of giving everyone a better bow, not just a select few people of whoevers choosing because they were tired of a few people getting superb stuff while we all were just using the standard. Don't get me wrong, I like the next guy likes getting one of a kind gear (the one time I got it) albeit mine just being pretty to look at. I do however understand that when someone donates something for the betterment of everyone, it is kind of off putting when it is giving to one or two people. (Appologies I had a much larger and more indepth thing written, but my mousepad has ruined something good once more.)


This post was confusing to me, Tykanis. I will attempt to translate the tongue you have spoken (wink, it looks like you had a post puke on you, sorry.): You don't like folks getting gear that's not craftable.

If that's your point, and I hope it is, as some others have made the same point, I'll comment on it.

There will always be objects in game that are not craftable. Some of these will be extremely important, such as tools required for crafting, etc... Others will be modified weapons or armor.

I have been unapologetic about the fact that this has happened, and will continue to happen in the future. When it does happen though, it will not be a random event to help a buddy. The boosts also will not be random, or purposely overpowered.

Make sure you see that I put the word 'purposely' in there. That's there to make sure you know I'm not promising that OP objects MIGHT find their way in game. It's entirely possible that we will make a mistake. It's also entirely possible that one of our staff members will go crazy and try to boost themselves or a friend. I'm not so naive to think that it couldn't happen, but I do trust our staff not to do it. The "trust but verify" mantra is sometimes hard to swallow for some, but our staff members have always been patient and understanding, as have I when someone questions things I do.

Though I know what I'm saying is not quite what many want to hear in regards to the 'must be craftable' chant. It cannot be adopted because the promise would soon be broken.

What I will promise you, is that these non-craftable items, when given to players will be fully scrutinized, and in the case of boosted gear, will be scrutinized and approved by multiple staff members.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:48 pm

Oh I trust that the staff will indeed attempt to give things out in a balanced manner. I also know that I do kinda just give giant blobs of incoherent sentences strewn together sometimes as well. My point however was not that I don't like unique items, I myself had the only bronze helm in game and the only Elven longknive at one point. I however also realized that these items were balanced with the surroundings, despite numerous people crying foul I believe the longknife was actually worse than the ones I was using before if I remember right. I was more curious as to why a player donated craft, donated for the use of human sides benefit was used for one maybe two people and set to nocraft. Unless the only people that can ever make a recurved compound bow...Which I doubt but hey I am not anywhere near a Tolkien Lore expert. Not to mention, despite how much trust I put towards the staff there will -always- be a slip up somewhere...A good example would be a longsword with greatsword damage that was about recently. I trust that you guys, will do your thing and try to keep us at around the same playing field most of the time. I however believe that perhaps a better eye should be kept on some staff then others, of course that might be my white knight complex kicking in towards certain people.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:58 pm

The point I am attempting to get across however, is why would I or anyone for that matter. Write a craft for something, when either one of two things happen. 1. Only the descriptions are used and said item is used for one person. 2. You send in that craft and then said craft has maybe one or two sentences changed in it and then it gets claimed by someone else who might be viewing the ticket at the time. Totally discrediting you, the actual person who wrote it in the process.

That, Among many, many things is what ruins trust.
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:05 pm

Just so we are absolutely clear, that bow submission has never been built. It is not in game. The object is not in game. No one has stolen anything.

If you want your name on a craft, brag-rights for it, you submit it as a Master Craft and follow the MC guidelines that pertain to your clan or lack thereof.

A non-Mastercraft submission is not a guarantee. It is not yours. It is not any one player's property. We can alter it to our heart's content as Staff and we will use it or we will not.

Imagine if you will, with me, that Laketown has multiple different crafting clans and companies, some PC and some NPC-ran. Now Player A submits a gem-studded bracelet as a suggestion. They found a hole where something was lacking but didn't have the skills or level of skill to submit it as an MC. Months pass and we finally get a break in the clouds of other building and get it in but we find in that moment, due to the materials and the skills used, it best fits Clan B so we give it to Clan B. Now this is a story. Nothing like that has happened with any recurve bow submission. There is not a single recurve bow presently in the game world. Perhaps on a logged out PC, for that I cannot check.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:11 pm

Rishte, I personally have never ever written a craft though I have spoken with many people who have and I live with one as well. Might I mention that this craft was made many many months before Mastercrafts were even mentioned or heard of by anyone who isn't currently staff. There is indeed a PC that has a recurved bow ig, whenther or not he has logged in recently however is not my issue. This is once more touching down on staff communication.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:13 pm

If I cannot get through to at least one person, the points I am attempting to get across then there is no point in me speaking anymore. As there is no point in me talking about it, if not one person is willing to at least listen to what is actually being said. What I am saying is not meant to be stabs at anyone, but something to attempt to embrace at least some of it.
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Re: Trust

Postby Rishte » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:16 pm

Tykanis wrote:Rishte, I personally have never ever written a craft though I have spoken with many people who have and I live with one as well. Might I mention that this craft was made many many months before Mastercrafts were even mentioned or heard of by anyone who isn't currently staff. There is indeed a PC that has a recurved bow ig, whenther or not he has logged in recently however is not my issue. This is once more touching down on staff communication.


They have the elven recurve bow. The bow submitted as a craft suggestion as the character of the player who submitted it lacked the skills to make a bow period. The bow submitted was never put in.

This is not staff communication. This is a limitation of 'find ####' which only allows us to search based on what is presently on the port.
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Re: Trust

Postby Tykanis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:18 pm

If said player ever logs in, read the description. That is all I have to say on that, and all I will. I am off to spend my time on better things.
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Re: Trust

Postby Nimrod » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:23 pm

Tykanis wrote:Craft sent by two players close to around two months ago, if not more in hopes of having a better -craftable- bow only for it to be turned into a prize for something and set to noncraftable. Not to mention that numerous and I mean quite a few other crafts would be donated to the game if a particular RPA hadn't been known for either taking a particular players ideas and turning it into their own or just taking the actual written craft/description and changing one or two words and claiming it as their own as well, and by a few I mean close to ten. Fully written and fleshed out crafts ready to go for the betterment of items ig at this moment in time, that this particular player will never send in due to what I previously mentioned. Just some food for thought with some of the other, more creative players trust issues.


I think this has replied to, but I'm going to reply in the blind, having not read the reply itself.

We assume that all submissions have been sent to us for the betterment of the game and for us to use in any manner we see fit. Also, any submissions become the property of the game itself.

Staff has written literally thousands of descriptions... maybe even closer to 10,000 descriptions and we don't keep track of who writes what. Sometimes, if we have a particular description that we're proud of we'll show it to another staff member and we have a party together, celebrating it's utter coolness. Yes, we're nerds. We get excited over the taste string of bacon. :)

If there were modifications made to the description, it was to make it better, or at least better in the editor's eyes. There was no intent to blatantly steal the submission. It was simply using your submission. By the way, thank you for your submission.

If you feel the staffer in question that used that object purposely tried to pass it off as their own work and tried to steal credit for it, then please, by all means, contact us and spell out the details, but I can't believe this would happen. There has to be a logical explanation somewhere.

If you really want to help out by writing descriptions, by all means apply to become a staff member. We can always use more. Randomly donating crafts and objects literally makes more work for staff. If you wish to remain a player and help, look in to our Player Builder Forum.

I'll also point out that we do try to use player submissions or even data from their backgrounds to help flesh out the gameworld. It's an homage, not theft. :)

We will often times, but not always, give credit in some manner for some things. By and large though, the entire game is simply a collective effort.
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