Moderator: Elder Staff
by Brian » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:23 pm
by tehkory » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:23 pm
seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!
...
by Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:48 pm
seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!
by Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:37 pm
tehkory wrote:RE: Forgiveness, there's nobody on Staff I really need to forgive, though there are some some people do. But I think the bigger concern is that many of the current Staff might not be here next month--even Nimrod took a good month-or-two break. That happens. When it comes to standards, rules, etc., I'm concerned more with tomorrow than today.
by bjg2k1us » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:04 pm
seirza wrote:A newbie enters the fray!
...
by Nimrod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:08 pm
bjg2k1us wrote:Forgiveness is fine, it's a wonderful thing. I think you'll find most people who play or have played this game are willing to give it - but they're also not wrong to ask questions like: what are you doing to make sure that some of these oft-repeated mistakes don't keep happening? I would say that the statements by staff about implementing standards are a positive result of this thread (though they may have actually been doing just that before the issue was even raised), and I appreciate that Nimrod especially has kept answering questions, even from some of the most acerbic critics.
bjg2k1us wrote:However, to claim that this entire thread is nothing but complaints over a single incident is inaccurate. There have been numerous inconsistencies in how staff has documented and implemented this latest iteration of SOI, and much of the frustration stems from the fact that 'the elf' is but one in a long line of 'innocent misunderstandings' that could have been avoided with better standardization. Again, I appreciate that the discussion is happening, and look forward to seeing improvement.
bjg2k1us wrote:What about the input from people not currently playing? Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but everything I've said is coming from someone who hasn't played in months. If that makes all my opinions on the direction of the game invalid, so be it. Staff can always ban my account if they feel that my opinions are unwarranted and unwanted; and if you choose to ignore anything or everything I'm saying because of that, that's entirely your decision. I would only say that having people who are still invested and interested in your game, even if they have reservations about playing it at the moment, is not actually a bad thing - provided they can still share their opinions without becoming toxic.
bjg2k1us wrote:----
As to the side point about recurve bows and elves... while it's certainly possible that elves are more likely to use that style, and men another, I'd be disappointed to think that a) men simply couldn't make a recurve bow because the process is somehow a technical mystery only possessed by the most ancient of races, and b) that the 'elvish' quality of the craftsmanship of the Firstborn can be distilled down to things like 'they know how to recurve bows' or 'they use leaf-bladed swords', or any other mechanical attribute. Combining thought, purpose, and art in the creation of a thing... that is the 'elvish' trait that men call 'magic'.
by bjg2k1us » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:53 pm
An inconsistency does not always mean that staff are cheating, or trying to pull a fast one.
by seirza » Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:08 pm
tehkory wrote:ETA:
"I'll probably get downvoted/attacked/etc., but..." is a pretty common start to a lot of arguments, and generally the wrong start. It puts any disagreements on the wrong foot to begin with. That's the only thing I'll skewer you on.
bjg2k1us wrote:However, to claim that this entire thread is nothing but complaints over a single incident is inaccurate.
bjg2k1us wrote:What about the input from people not currently playing? Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but everything I've said is coming from someone who hasn't played in months. If that makes all my opinions on the direction of the game invalid, so be it. Staff can always ban my account if they feel that my opinions are unwarranted and unwanted; and if you choose to ignore anything or everything I'm saying because of that, that's entirely your decision. I would only say that having people who are still invested and interested in your game, even if they have reservations about playing it at the moment, is not actually a bad thing - provided they can still share their opinions without becoming toxic.
by EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:33 am
Nimrod wrote:Surprise is relative, IMHO. An equally horrible analogy to match your own would be your work life. You're hired to make 50k a year, you agreed to that amount in exchange for 1/3 of your life each year. You work in your position for a year, and make a good friend, Bob, who does your same job. You and Bob are really good buddies. After a year you discover that Bob makes 75k in a less-than-honest manner. The terms with your employer were agreed upon by you and your employer prior to you accepting and you were extremely happy in your position until you found out Bob made 75k. Does this give you the right to demand 75k of your employer? The quid pro quo was acceptable before, but now it is not because your perspective has been changed.
by Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:51 am
Nimrod wrote:Rivean wrote:It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.
Hi Riv.I'm going to snip out this one bit and comment, because I can.
I agree. Completely. I attempted to introduce the mercy command some time ago, got Elder Staff approval to float the idea to the players and no major objections from Elder Staff.
I floated the idea to the players and a revolt erupted around it. No! They screamed loudly. Within ten minutes of the post being made one of our Elder Staffers quickly changed the position they had just an hour before and became a bitter foe to the idea. I let the complaints rage for some time and in the end, gave up on the idea and tossed it in the garbage.
by Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:55 am
by EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:52 am
A large and angry troll wrote:Sorry... I don't agree with publicly advertising all roles. Some are plot related. Some are for very specific spots in the hierarchy. If you aren't invited. Then you don't fit the 'vision' for that spot. Deal with it.
by Bones » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:13 am
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:22 am
EltanimRas wrote:Nimrod wrote:Surprise is relative, IMHO. An equally horrible analogy to match your own would be your work life. You're hired to make 50k a year, you agreed to that amount in exchange for 1/3 of your life each year. You work in your position for a year, and make a good friend, Bob, who does your same job. You and Bob are really good buddies. After a year you discover that Bob makes 75k in a less-than-honest manner. The terms with your employer were agreed upon by you and your employer prior to you accepting and you were extremely happy in your position until you found out Bob made 75k. Does this give you the right to demand 75k of your employer? The quid pro quo was acceptable before, but now it is not because your perspective has been changed.
This gives me the right to sue the &*%# out of my employer for sex discrimination, probably. At the very least, it removes said employer's right (figuratively speaking, of course) to act the wounded party when I depart for greener pastures.
cf.:
'Pay Secrecy' Policies At Work: Often Illegal, And Misunderstood
When the Boss Says, 'Don't Tell Your Coworkers How Much You Get Paid'
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:33 am
seirza wrote: I'd also like to give props to the fact that this thread exists,
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:45 am
Rivean wrote:Nimrod wrote:Rivean wrote:It's a code problem, and it needs a code solution. We're all better off if we direct energies toward coming up with a coded system that requires (or at the least facilitates) RP. Everything else is a bandaid that doesn't work very well and has negative side affects - one of which is often going to be a furious playerbase.
Hi Riv.I'm going to snip out this one bit and comment, because I can.
I agree. Completely. I attempted to introduce the mercy command some time ago, got Elder Staff approval to float the idea to the players and no major objections from Elder Staff.
I floated the idea to the players and a revolt erupted around it. No! They screamed loudly. Within ten minutes of the post being made one of our Elder Staffers quickly changed the position they had just an hour before and became a bitter foe to the idea. I let the complaints rage for some time and in the end, gave up on the idea and tossed it in the garbage.
I remember the mercy command shitstorm, and I was against it as well, though not nearly so vehemently as others (or maybe I just feel calmer about it now in retrospect).
I think you approached the problem in the wrong way:
The mercy command, as well as all the other suggestions you've listed in your reply to my post are aimed at POST COMBAT RP. While I think there's some room for speculation there, any solution to our problem must deal with PRE COMBAT RP.
That's where the problems lie, that's where our ROE has historically focused on.
Honestly, if it weren't for the problems of ambush and archery, some sort of engage command that would set off a timer in which RP could take place before coded combat begins, coupled with a dramatic slowing down of the pace of coded combat so people are not buttonmashing FLEE to save their lives would alleviate 70 - 80 percent of our combat woes.
Of course, archery and ambush are a huge part of the game, so we can't do that, but I still believe that the solution lies in that direction, and that's where we'll eventually end up if we keep thinking about it.
Slowing down combat though, is a definite win win. The only balancing act one has to perform is one where combat is slow enough that one can RP through it, but not so slow that one doesn't feel the edge-of-your-seat thing.
And even in that case, I'd happily sacrifice some visceral excitement to improve the quality of combat RP.
by Brian » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:54 am
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:54 am
EltanimRas wrote:A large and angry troll wrote:Sorry... I don't agree with publicly advertising all roles. Some are plot related. Some are for very specific spots in the hierarchy. If you aren't invited. Then you don't fit the 'vision' for that spot. Deal with it.
Links:
Secret role call: Allanak
Secret Role Call!
Sample quotation (credit Talia):
"There is no need to tell us who your character will be or what s/he will be doing, since you don't know what the role is! Just tell us how hard you can throw yourself in over the next month or so, and what your usual playtimes are. If you want, you can also tell us how good you are at involving other players and/or doing leader-y stuff or plot stuff."
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:56 am
Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.
A number of the players on this forum posting about 'it's not fair sekrit sekrit' might not have had access to that 'secret invite role' from staff, or to 'that concept', or 'this resource', but they had a number of opportunities given to them by staff.
We can go into airing out dirty laundry if you want. Until then, try not to act cool by being an dick to me. If you're an dick to me, I'll have to be a dick to you. And I'm -much- better at it.
by Nimrod » Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:05 pm
Rivean wrote:Our problems tend to be 'Rivean is a twink and he's going to spam run the hell away, so I'm going to spam murder him before he does so.'
by Rivean » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:23 pm
Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.
Nimrod wrote:Maybe the problem is unsolvable, but we'll do our best to make it better, but it is not going to be our main focus.
Nimrod wrote:I can't tell, but I hope you're joking here, Eltanimras. The horrible analogy that I was countering another horrible analogy with was not intended to have anything to do with gender discrimination. I'm not sure how that issue could be read in to anything I've posted so far.
by Holmes » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:39 pm
Bones wrote:I'm not angry at all. Good try though. At the moment you're simply trying to pick a fight, and I'll happily oblige you if you -really- want to get into one.
A number of the players on this forum posting about 'it's not fair sekrit sekrit' might not have had access to that 'secret invite role' from staff, or to 'that concept', or 'this resource', but they had a number of opportunities given to them by staff.
We can go into airing out dirty laundry if you want. Until then, try not to act cool by being an dick to me. If you're an dick to me, I'll have to be a dick to you. And I'm -much- better at it.
by EltanimRas » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:38 pm
tehkory wrote:Bones, open a new thread where we can ask you to air out our dirty laundry! I wanna see mine. And ER's.