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Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby tehkory » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:51 pm

Patty wrote:I loved the arena sparring Songweaver. I honestly wish all combat was like that.

I would be in favor removing all sparring npcs and sparring weapons as Songweaver suggested personally or figuring a way to limit how much you can learn from it.

Holmes removed trash-quality weapons giving you gains AT ALL, AFAIR. And a limit to leveling past X in a certain area(the sewers in Atonement/Parallel) was also a means used, which would probably be the best way to do it. No leveling past talented or adroit when fighting in the city, to prevent the obvious danger of 'lol I'll just use real weapons to spar.'

A lot of the tools to fix the game's problems already exist, happily, or have been used in the past. It's just a matter of somebody asking how it was done already.

ETA:
And the zone-restricted element is particularly nice for PvP balance, as orcs likely have less qualms about 'sparring' with live weapons, and shouldn't be punished/expected not to. It's a different culture with the barbaric, nonhuman races, and while it needs given balance consideration, it's a perfectly fine part of their culture.
Last edited by tehkory on Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby Songweaver » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Kory's exactly right. Personally, I'm always willing to advise on solutions to implementation. I have a fond spot in my heart for this ugly, tricky, neat little codebase.

I imagine others in the know feel similarly, largely.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby bjg2k1us » Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:29 pm

As long as the game model is 'start low, advance fast' to the point where no 0 RPP player can expect to be even remotely competent at any given role until they grind and twink, then grinding and twinking and power creep is going to be the standard metagame. A pwipe or skill setback won't actually solve anything without changing that dynamic.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby cfelch » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:12 am

Honestly, I'm tired of having to roleplay as 'the new guy'.
If everybody is just going to grind up to legendary anyway....
Why not let combat characters start off as good as they can get combat wise and let them get on with a productive engaging life instead?
This 'ideal' of starting everyone off in the mailroom really needs to go, it's just not conducive to proactivity.
Power can't creep without going sideways now (which can be made more difficult).

Another avenue would be offering limited access to the various craft sets opened by the more massive crafting skills.
This would allow you to increase the skill choices during chargen, especially if opting for an archetype or sought after role.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby crayon » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:08 pm

Some people have mentioned solving the problem at its root, insofar as fixing sparring skillgains to not be so plentiful and allow characters to reach higher end skills, while still rejecting the idea that characters should be wiped, diminished, or otherwise dealt with, so it's worth mentioning what, exactly, the problem is with solving the source of the problem and leaving peoples' characters as they are.

If you remove the source of the excessive skill gains (which is a bug) without otherwise de-skilling, wiping, or killing off some or all of the characters that have taken advantage of it to reach excessive skill levels, then no new player will ever have a realistic chance of reaching those skills, compared to the legacy characters. Ever. You can't fix the problem without touching legacy characters without entrenching older players and making things even harder for new characters. That's why power creep issues have to be fixed quickly, or they tend to spiral out of control.

There used to be a set of additional requirements on combat skillgains that should have prevented people from getting them higher than adroit or master through sparring, as far as I know, but maybe that's been removed. It was a little bit rough to ever find your character in those sorts of situations, unless you were soloing or otherwise being a monstrous twink, or abusing guard, but it worked.

Admittedly, skillgains, progression, grinding, and twinking are all likely to remain problems on this codebase barring some significant changes, regardless of changes to minor things like sparring or whatnot. If you really want the grinding and skillgaining systems to encourage the best out of your players, rather than the worst, replace the timer on skill gains with a roleplay quota to be met, accumulated by a function of say/emote/think/feel length vs. characters-in-room.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby mongwen » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:36 pm

I will just say that I disagree with everything SW said in the first post in this thread. The sparring arena was a waste of my time. I hate the OOC timers and would rather see them removed altogether or made closer to the length of a day. Six or seven RL hours basically claims that you sparred all day long, which is not the way it happens, of course. They are absurdly long. And if staff ever decide to gank skills of surviving PCs when laketown is opened for so-called fairness reasons, that's a good reason to quit the game completely.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby Songweaver » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:21 am

That's a very entitled point-of-view, Mongwen. How many game ALPHAs do you know that even allow you to keep your avatar at all when they move onto BETA/etc? :p

There's a reason why games do this, in development.

Sometimes, it's about doing what's right for the game as a whole (its economy, its social structure, supporting new clans and spheres of play, etc).

Not that this conversation matters anymore: the admins have already stated that they're not going to kill off a bunch of characters, or do a pwipe, or reduce characters' skill levels to level the playing field for Laketown characters, or cap their armor/weapons, when they move into BETA.

So, that's a good thing, for you! Maybe not for Laketown, though, if I had to venture a guess. Only time will tell.
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Re: Shadows of Sparville II: Grind, Twinks, and Power Creep

Postby Bones » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:29 am

Songweaver wrote:That's a very entitled point-of-view, Mongwen.


"Dear Mister Kettle.. I am writing you in concern about your current hue.."

Sincerely,
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