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Are we in Alpha?

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Are we in Alpha?

Postby twitchyweasel » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:53 pm

In light of the recent newsletter that says we're pulling back on RPAing... Why, I must ask? I know that we are in 'alpha' and building Laketown, but every other aspect of the game is treated as a full game. We have real PCs IG that are trying to tell real stories. We don't do rezzes, we adhere to keeping things IC, and we have special roles, and races. That isn't alpha...

I appreciate all the work the staff is doing to push towards Laketown. Just trying to get a clearer expectation of what is going on,what is expected of players, and what staff is wanting to accomplish with this 'alpha' phase.

ETA: to quote the newsletter, "Trying to tell a compelling story when we do not have a complete gameworld is pointless at this time." Players are trying to tell a compelling story IG. Are we saying those efforts are futile?
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:23 pm

To clarify: For staff to try to tell a compelling story at this time is pointless. We welcome, and encourage, players to tell their stories. We love the fact that you have the tools to do this right now. Your play is not pointless if you and others are enjoying it.

Yes. This is Alpha, and we will remain in Alpha until we open Laketown, when we will enter our Beta Phase, which should be an extremely short phase.

Why am I insistent on the fact that we're in Alpha and that our RPA's will not be as active as some of you may wish?

Simply put, we refuse to be rushed, or pressured in to things that we are not ready for. We are not trying to slap together a gameworld that is just good enough for us to tell a nebulous story that climaxes and then leaves us all saying 'Now what?'.

We are playing the long game, we ask that you try to enjoy the journey, as we are trying to.

We've gone through two cycles of staff members getting ahead of themselves and departing from the overall plan that was agreed upon at the very beginning. This rogue-like approach, though fun for a particular group of players, is at an end and I hope to never repeat it.

Shadows of Isildur is not, nor will ever be, a game of constant, in-your-face admin plots and action, action, action. Ours is a slower, more considered game where you may make plans and reach for your goals over time. Of course we will continue to have pvp and pve excitement for our adrenalin junkies, but they are not our sole focus, or even our main focus.

If a player cannot enjoy our game unless he is being entertained by one of our administrators then I encourage them to take a step back to consider what, exactly, it is that they want from our game. It's been proven time and again that when players depend on staff for their entertainment that they will invariably be disappointed and staff will burn out or become disillusioned.

So... instead of asking what the game can do for you, ask what you can do to make the game better with your roleplay. Slow down. Take pleasure from a well-crafted emote. Enjoy the little things. Tell your character's story.

You can tell a great story while we're in Alpha. Many have, and many still are.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby twitchyweasel » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:35 pm

Nimrod wrote:Simply put, we refuse to be rushed, or pressured in to things that we are not ready for. We are not trying to slap together a gameworld that is just good enough for us to tell a nebulous story that climaxes and then leaves us all saying 'Now what?'



I don't see how having ongoing plot in this phase of the game is anything like that. Plot can extend into beta, even. We are in a gameworld right now where we are extremely limited in what plots players can run, especially without admin support. I am pretty burnt out right now myself, specifically from trying to make things interesting for players and getting limited help from admins. Combat PCs are a huge part of the game, and exploring and killing warg #18903 is only fun for so long.

And that 'specific group of players' who want plot I think is going to be the majority of your playerbase. RPTs have always drawn good numbers to the game.

To add: I'm not looking for in your face action. I'm looking for long, ongoing plot that gives my PC a reason to keep telling his story.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Real » Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:58 pm

twitchyweasel wrote:And that 'specific group of players' who want plot I think is going to be the majority of your playerbase.

A large part of the capability to run things as players left when...well, players left.

Even the recent, interesting additions to the gameworld are nigh-on suicidal because...

well...

the players left..

The proactive people stop being proactive when it becomes an uphill battle.
I would invite someone to think of an active combat lead ingame right now. Just one. Who logs on, say, two or three times a week and leads a patrol. Not unclanned/private-level soldiers who are working to see that something ever happens, a genuine clanlead, a corporal or something. Player, non-staff PC.

They might even have chainmail if they know how to work the system enough. Doesn't help much when you ring the bell to muster and get a handful, if that, of lightly/unarmored characters.

If the fact that most (read: almost all) of the older combat players have already left/grown jaded and inactive is not a red flag then I don't think there's a chance of recovery with this way of looking at things. It's like SOI is designed for people that don't play it. Not just the combatants either, tons of the craftsmen have quit/gone mia.

Furthermore, if clanleads are not appearing, why are we keeping the candle lit. Demote, promote active characters and ensure that the game works...The Inn went unran for months. It took someone apping in as a corporal to see the last sergeant replaced...These things do not fix themselves, and the offhand approach has driven a lot of clans into the ground. (One semi-active/quitting player can induct into the Militia, for example)

Lodge Foremen.

?????????????

We should set up a rule where if you disappear from your position for so long, it passes on to the next in line. Otherwise you end up with nonfunctioning clans and newbies waiting forever to join groups that they physically can not.

The Sergeant/Foreman/Shopowner that you never see is really not a good look.

There was another big concept going around right at the beginning that was lost more recently. It was 'player feedback will help us design this game'. How can players be more clear in their feedback than "well this stopped being fun, so I'll stop logging in".

There's a significant difference between 'refusing to be rushed' and 'refusing to patch a boat before it sinks'. It seems more like the goal is "alienate as many players as possible and hope putting in a large town with lots of rooms brings a large amount of them back"

It's so okay to "not care about player numbers", as long as you're okay with your player-supported infrastructures crumbling and the functionality of most clans waning to unplayable levels. If we're gonna play Ghost Town RPI at least load some gear in the Lodge shops, maybe give the Guard some of the gear they've always needed and never had anything close to.

Even now, in Alpha, the game needs maintenance, it needs staff paying attention to things like "well, this clan can not do its job because of x' but I mean we can ultimately ignore all that nonsense and we'll have something, right? If you build it, they will come. Right?

The design philosophy shifted, from for the players to for the staff.
It sounds a bit like "something that's fun for a particular group of players", just a different group.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Melkor » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:20 pm

Well said, Real.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby MrT2G » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:23 pm

My opinion on this is that when pro-active players are put into leadership positions clans will flourish and those players will find things to do.

Promote pro-active players and allow them to create plots. Admin plots are awesome too, but players should be the engine driving any plot.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Songweaver » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:24 am

I think that the suggestion being made is that the "particular group of players" that the game isn't going to appeal to just so happens to be the majority of the proactive players that can drive and create plot.

Right now, SOI is a game for these types of players:

- Players looking for "every day life" social interaction, and getting rich through casual crafting + player-owned shops. The system encourages crafters to craft things that players don't want to buy and are easy to craft, because vNPC shoppers are the way to riches, and players are not (because most players have very limited means of making money).

- Players looking for small group, skirmish PVP.

Right now, SOI is not a game for these types of players:

- Combat-oriented players that want a game full of adventure and meaningful action, where their characters get to be the heroes/villains of a story that Tolkien never told. These players crave challenging, dynamic PvE content and engaging PvE plots.

- Explorers that want a game full of mysteries and secrets that encourage them to constantly be searching the wilderness. This wilderness just doesn't have a lot to interact with.

- Story junkies that want to take part in a larger story (one large enough that only the staff could initially create it), where their characters' choices and actions shape the world around them. While players can create their own stories that provide content for other players (I did this with Ekkja's betrayal and the Hillmen/Free People, pof Mendev did this, Strifebjorn/Gunnbjorn did this, some players have managed it, though often-times they still needed staff support) ... it is, as Twitchy said, an uphill battle without staff support. Proactive story junkies can do things on their own to an extent, but they can't really change much about the gameworld on their own. They can't be surprised if the only one generating story content is themselves. These players like to be surprised, and they like change.

I think it's hard to reconcile this for long-time SOI players, because the SOI of the past appealed to different sorts of players through the use of different spheres. Players who want something more like the Battalions of Eradan, or Tur Edendor, or Northlands are going to be left wanting. SOI3 has become more like Minas Tirith, which appealed to a different type of player.

It took me a long time (read: still struggling with it) to accept this. It's not a game for everyone, and it's a different SOI than the SOI of the past.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Tepes » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:44 am

Going to agree with Songweaver.

This version is more like Minas Tirith. It was good, for those who liked it. I could work it to be more like the way I played, if it was actually still Minas Tirith. But it's too small.

15 rooms does not a criminal-rogue character make. (Yes, I know Utterby is actually 16 rooms big)
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Icarus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:57 am

Yup.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:24 am

MrT2G wrote:My opinion on this is that when pro-active players are put into leadership positions clans will flourish and those players will find things to do.

Promote pro-active players and allow them to create plots. Admin plots are awesome too, but players should be the engine driving any plot.


easier said than done when leaders are not really provided with any real objectives or means to create plots with. Nobody cares about bog runs, they've become a chore to most of the playerbase. There's no way of meaningfully interacting with any of the other factions or towns outside the current game world, and there's no long term goals for a sphere to work towards that wouldn't require direct staff involvement. All that's really left is PVP
combat, which usually just involves waiting hours only to have the first person you see sprint off before you can type the first emote, or coded combat starting within seconds of the encounter. It's rarely satisfying, and does little to further any sort of story.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby cfelch » Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:57 am

So has anyone watched hell on wheels?

The problem with a bunch of roughnecks out in lawless territory is that they need to be kept busy lest they return to their wicked ways.

I get into more trouble because I have hit the wall of progression and turn prankster out of boredom.

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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:56 pm

Hell on wheels is awesome. When men were men, not what we have here, overgrown and passive aggressive man-babies.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 15, 2015 1:56 pm

I think the consistent reply to this has been that yes, it is in an alpha, and that means that the staff is going to be working on what they're working on and the players are going to have to fend for themselves outside of some occasional interaction.

I don't see anything wrong with this so long as once we move out of this alpha stage it means that the majority of the major work is finished and then the staff can shift the vast majority of their effort to supporting all of those other activities. For me particularly this would be immersive, wide-ranging plots that are affectable by the player and with variable outcome depending on player actions!

I think it's a good choice to continue with the, "This is an alpha, we are working to build everything we feel we will need to have a magnificent game world where we can focus on the plot, story, and good things for the players for when we actually open. Until then, please bear with us and keep on doing the glorified player testing that you're doing."

I want them to be finished (as best they can be) with the projects like the armor overhaul that has been done. Those are exactly the kinds of things that an alpha is for in my mind. Get all of that more tedious, ground work type stuff done so that when it's open it will provide what I expect from an open game, not an alpha!

I think that with the alpha label, if they're sticking with that, comes the fact that the people playing the game now aren't players, not truly -- they're play testers. We're basically the quality assurance team for the game, which in the gaming world is not fun or glamorous. It's a job and usually a thankless one. Good on all the folks who have stuck with it an helped discover bugs and imbalances.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Tykanis » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:19 pm

Dude do you realize how boring being the only person for the most part that leads patrols anywhere 99.9% of the time becomes after a while? Oh hey....I walked us through the woods and killed warg a b and c and then we killed a bear that tried to rip my face off. Not to mention....Why am I "the only hope for recruits to go outside" as I have been told...when there should be a sergeant or a corporal around. It's a little off putting and very slowly causing me to burn out. HOWEVER, I have managed to find some meaningful RP for once as after Tykanis it seemingly died down when Mendev, Erredil, etc died w/e, despite how much I despised them from time to time.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby MrT2G » Sat Aug 15, 2015 4:55 pm

radioactivejesus wrote:
MrT2G wrote:My opinion on this is that when pro-active players are put into leadership positions clans will flourish and those players will find things to do.

Promote pro-active players and allow them to create plots. Admin plots are awesome too, but players should be the engine driving any plot.


Easier said than done when leaders are not really provided with any real objectives or means to create plots with.


It really isn't. Just takes some imagination, which I would assume everyone here has at least some of. You just have to take risks (OOCly as well, in that ideas may not get support from players or staff). The whole process is easier in the Orcish sphere, especially as leadership.

People just want sure things and to have their hands held. It doesn't help Admins have helped into, maintain, or outright put most clans leadership into their positions and hand feed them plots in the past. Now, they all have the mindset they need to be lead on plots rather then create their own.

I'd wager if anyone got a plot or idea rolling that made sense, had player support. It would end up with enough Staff support to work out.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Songweaver » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:11 pm

I'd wager if anyone got a plot or idea rolling that made sense, had player support. It would end up with enough Staff support to work out.


I can say with 100% certainty from my own experiences, being the sort of player that does create and drive a lot of my own plots, that this is just not the case most of the time. A lot of player-created plots have hanged themselves waiting for support that never came.


@Brian

I think it's a good choice to continue with the, "This is an alpha, we are working to build everything we feel we will need to have a magnificent game world where we can focus on the plot, story, and good things for the players for when we actually open. Until then, please bear with us and keep on doing the glorified player testing that you're doing."


My understanding is that the intention is for staff to never focus on plot and story (because it's believed that it only leads to staff burn out, as per Nimrod), but rather create a sandbox where the players are able to do whatever the sandbox allows for. The sandbox approach works for some players, but isn't for everyone, which is what I was suggesting in my previous post.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:13 pm

Songweaver wrote:@Brian

My understanding is that the intention is for staff to never focus on plot and story (because it's believed that it only leads to staff burn out), but rather create a sandbox where the players are able to do whatever the sandbox allows for. The sandbox approach works for some players, but isn't for everyone, which is what I was suggesting in my previous post.


Could you point me towards the announcement or statement or whatever for that? I think I must have missed it.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby MrT2G » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:18 pm

Songweaver wrote:
I'd wager if anyone got a plot or idea rolling that made sense, had player support. It would end up with enough Staff support to work out.


I can say with 100% certainty from my own experiences, being the sort of player that does create and drive a lot of my own plots, that this is just not the case most of the time. A lot of player-created plots have hanged themselves waiting for support that never came.


My experience is about fifty/fifty with smaller ideas more likely to get any needed support then bigger ideas.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Songweaver » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:20 pm

Brian wrote:
Songweaver wrote:@Brian

My understanding is that the intention is for staff to never focus on plot and story (because it's believed that it only leads to staff burn out), but rather create a sandbox where the players are able to do whatever the sandbox allows for. The sandbox approach works for some players, but isn't for everyone, which is what I was suggesting in my previous post.


Could you point me towards the announcement or statement or whatever for that? I think I must have missed it.


Here's a couple of things from this thread that infer as much.

Shadows of Isildur is not, nor will ever be, a game of constant, in-your-face admin plots and action, action, action. Ours is a slower, more considered game where you may make plans and reach for your goals over time.


It's been proven time and again that when players depend on staff for their entertainment that they will invariably be disappointed and staff will burn out or become disillusioned.

So... instead of asking what the game can do for you, ask what you can do to make the game better with your roleplay. Slow down. Take pleasure from a well-crafted emote. Enjoy the little things.


More has come from other recent threads and other conversations. Nimrod can probably confirm better than I, but my understanding's that SOI3 will be much less about the sort of staff-guided/player-impacted over-arcing plot that you mentioned, and more of a sandbox than previous incarnations of the game.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:49 pm

Stop cherry picking. SoI is not just a sandbox. Brian is spot on with his thoughts. I'm still waiting on the answer to my question, sw.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Icarus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:32 pm

He answered it. He literally quoted you. You asked for posts you've made that indicated what he claimed, he provided them, and you call it cherry picking.

"Shadows of Isildur is not, nor will ever be, a game of constant, in-your-face admin plots and action, action, action. Ours is a slower, more considered game where you may make plans and reach for your goals over time." -Nimrod
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby MrT2G » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:44 pm

Icarus wrote:He answered it. He literally quoted you. You asked for posts you've made that indicated what he claimed, he provided them, and you call it cherry picking.

"Shadows of Isildur is not, nor will ever be, a game of constant, in-your-face admin plots and action, action, action. Ours is a slower, more considered game where you may make plans and reach for your goals over time." -Nimrod


In no way does that quote mean there won't be any staff-lead plots or RPTs.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby radioactivejesus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:53 pm

I think the main thing to focus on in this thread, is that if staff-run plots are being put on the backburner again, players will need automated goals to keep them busy. Things like the orc-head bounty system that was introduced for the guard, new dungeon-crawls with scavengable treasures or ways to construct new forts or houses from lumber and stone.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:12 pm

MrT2G wrote:
Icarus wrote:He answered it. He literally quoted you. You asked for posts you've made that indicated what he claimed, he provided them, and you call it cherry picking.

"Shadows of Isildur is not, nor will ever be, a game of constant, in-your-face admin plots and action, action, action. Ours is a slower, more considered game where you may make plans and reach for your goals over time." -Nimrod


In no way does that quote mean there won't be any staff-lead plots or RPTs.

Which isn't what SW said, either, in any case. There's Staff-lead plots *currently*. They're just not a focus, yeah? These ultimate statements when reviewing other people's points is definitely below what we should be.

More on-topic, we're in an Alpha in which things likely aren't going to fundamentally change when things shift over to non-Alpha. Players and Staff may think, say, or prove otherwise.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:38 pm

Icarus wrote:He answered it. He literally quoted you. You asked for posts you've made that indicated what he claimed, he provided them, and you call it cherry picking.


I didn't ask for posts I've made, Icarus. There has been cherry picking and taking quotes out of context. I've never said we would never have staff-led plots or rpts. You and SW, seem to be choosing to read only certain words in my posts without reading the whole. That, by definition is cherry picking.

And I think you may be slightly confused about the question I'm asking SW to answer. The question has been posed in another thread and he refuses to answer, as though above his own rules. If you really don't know what the question is, I'm sure SW can post it here for you to review.

The point stands. We're in Alpha, staff will be concentrating mostly on building and fleshing out internal systems for the time being. We do still answer petitions and do our best on support tickets and supporting player-originated story lines.
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