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Are we in Alpha?

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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:55 pm

Nimrod wrote:
Icarus wrote:He answered it. He literally quoted you. You asked for posts you've made that indicated what he claimed, he provided them, and you call it cherry picking.


I didn't ask for posts I've made, Icarus. There has been cherry picking and taking quotes out of context. I've never said we would never have staff-led plots or rpts. You and SW, seem to be choosing to read only certain words in my posts without reading the whole. That, by definition is cherry picking.

And I think you may be slightly confused about the question I'm asking SW to answer. The question has been posed in another thread and he refuses to answer, as though above his own rules. If you really don't know what the question is, I'm sure SW can post it here for you to review.

The point stands. We're in Alpha, staff will be concentrating mostly on building and fleshing out internal systems for the time being. We do still answer petitions and do our best on support tickets and supporting player-originated story lines.

This question is 'some guy on Staff said something, and they shouldn't've, who was it?' It's really not that big of a deal.

Ask your own Staff. And if they don't respect you enough to tell you, that's probably a bigger problem than a player not following rules they never agreed to.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Icarus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:03 pm

One concern: if staff focus on building, where are the folks who are going to run the great plots and stories come from once you go full open? RPAing is just as much a skill as building, and if you lose all RPA expertise and practice because you don't cultivate folks whose specific job it is to RPA, doesn't that stick you in a pickle for open? Right now Ancalagon and Telchar are the only staff that seem to RPA as their focus, and those weekly RPTs they ran honed their skills in balancing mobile encounters, entertaining players, loot balance, mobile/prob building, and quite a few essential skills that will atrophy staffside if not utilized.

So, all for you guys sorting out Laketown. But you'll need good RPAs when you're finished with it. Those folks won't come from thin air fully formed.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:39 pm

Icarus wrote:One concern: if staff focus on building, where are the folks who are going to run the great plots and stories come from once you go full open? RPAing is just as much a skill as building, and if you lose all RPA expertise and practice because you don't cultivate folks whose specific job it is to RPA, doesn't that stick you in a pickle for open? Right now Ancalagon and Telchar are the only staff that seem to RPA as their focus, and those weekly RPTs they ran honed their skills in balancing mobile encounters, entertaining players, loot balance, mobile/prob building, and quite a few essential skills that will atrophy staffside if not utilized.

So, all for you guys sorting out Laketown. But you'll need good RPAs when you're finished with it. Those folks won't come from thin air fully formed.


Unfortunately all of your points are moot when it comes to Alpha, Icarus. This is what BETA is for.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Icarus » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:48 pm

So, we won't have a purpose for RPAs in alpha?
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:50 pm

tehkory wrote:This question is 'some guy on Staff said something, and they shouldn't've, who was it?' It's really not that big of a deal.

Ask your own Staff. And if they don't respect you enough to tell you, that's probably a bigger problem than a player not following rules they never agreed to.


The exact question was: Are you a liar or a cheater, and if you're a cheater, who is cheating with you? It's simple. I'm holding him to his own standards.

I know the answer, of course. It's not a matter of rules really, it's simple ethics.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:02 pm

Icarus wrote:So, we won't have a purpose for RPAs in alpha?


I can't believe this is a serious question. If you really don't understand, I would urge you to carefully re-read my posts again.

Here's one of my quotes from above:

Nimrod wrote:The point stands. We're in Alpha, staff will be concentrating mostly on building and fleshing out internal systems for the time being. We do still answer petitions and do our best on support tickets and supporting player-originated story lines.


TLDR: Our main focus is building but we still do a lot of RPA work.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:08 pm

Nimrod wrote:
tehkory wrote:This question is 'some guy on Staff said something, and they shouldn't've, who was it?' It's really not that big of a deal.

Ask your own Staff. And if they don't respect you enough to tell you, that's probably a bigger problem than a player not following rules they never agreed to.


The exact question was: Are you a liar or a cheater, and if you're a cheater, who is cheating with you? It's simple. I'm holding him to his own standards.

I know the answer, of course. It's not a matter of rules really, it's simple ethics.

It's not cheating for a player to be told things by other people. It's cheating for your Staff to do so, if those are the rules you've listed...which I'm not even sure they are, mostly because I couldn't find rules for Staff on this website if I tried.

Honestly, if at any point one player chased another player over multiple threads to aggressively call them a liar and a cheater on points they didn't feel like talking about/addressing, you'd tell them to stay on topic and/or threaten them with a ban. Staff ought to be better. C'mon, man.

If you don't like Songweaver's general view of your Alpha, address him on that. But quit chasing him over things you don't like. Stay on the base standards you set for others, much less the higher ones Staff--or Head-of-Game Staff--ought to be held to.

ETA: Nobody's flooding this thread thread *you* post in with random B.S. related to how you didn't actually finish Warcraft, or anything else you could be called on. Again, c'mon.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Bones » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:19 pm

tehkory wrote:It's not cheating for a player to be told things by other people. It's cheating for your Staff to do so, if those are the rules you've listed...which I'm not even sure they are, mostly because I couldn't find rules for Staff on this website if I tried.

Honestly, if at any point one player chased another player over multiple threads to aggressively call them a liar and a cheater on points they didn't feel like talking about/addressing, you'd tell them to stay on topic and/or threaten them with a ban. Staff ought to be better. C'mon, man.

If you don't like Songweaver's general view of your Alpha, address him on that. But quit chasing him over things you don't like. Stay on the base standards you set for others, much less the higher ones Staff--or Head-of-Game Staff--ought to be held to.

ETA: Nobody's flooding this thread thread *you* post in with random B.S. related to how you didn't actually finish Warcraft, or anything else you could be called on. Again, c'mon.



If that ain't a straight line for me to crawl out of my troll cave..

Jesus Tehkory. I actually took bets with a few of the non-inflammatory jerks on the forums as to whether it would be you, SW, or said members of either cadre to be a little monster. Warcraft was the main one. Now mind you I pegged SW for it, still.

He (And many others) Don't like SW's bullshit on the threads because it always follows SW being told No about something. It's a case of 'Waaah. Waaah. Mob Mentality form SUPER SW'. It's not being productive. Even his crap on the other forum threads about 'Building better this and that' is mostly put to jab at staff as to how he feels that the game should be run.

Go to London. Find Liam (Kite). Bribe him for the old SoI codebase. Pay a server company, get a few coders and open your own mud. You can call it Tehkory and Songweaver's Baddest of the Bad Old SoI REEEEMIX or some crap like that. (For future reference, the aforementioned MUD will be tightened to TASBOTBOSR for ease)

Maybe it would be easier not to chase SW or other players if you all didn't throw your gripe-fests up on every single forum group?

I bet Nimrod and Frigga could add a thread JUST for you guys, called 'Griping'. It would be available only to players who wanted to gripe about the game. Of course, every thread would be coded to autolock itself after ten posts or so. We want fresh gripes up! None of this old rehashing crap!

Think about it, Tehky.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:19 pm

This thread's a trainwreck. In the middle of that trainwreck, you're probably going to want (some form) of an answer. Here it is:
And, more fully on topic:
It's defined as an Alpha by Staff. It's not your traditional Alpha, no. It's much, much, much more like a Beta than any Alpha you've been in, and yet still certain things are lacking/non-existent until they're implemented by Staff. It's essentially a fully-completed and realized gameworld, with all the tools required, but Staff have a different vision and are putting the general running of the game aside in favor of long-term building goals.

That's their vision, and while I don't favor it, they're committed.
Last edited by tehkory on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:21 pm

Bones wrote:anything by you, ever

[edited by Nimrod - Removing an inflammatory link that did not add to the discussion]

More on-topic, tho.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:22 pm

tehkory wrote:Honestly, if at any point one player chased another player over multiple threads to aggressively call them a liar and a cheater on points they didn't feel like talking about/addressing, you'd tell them to stay on topic and/or threaten them with a ban. Staff ought to be better. C'mon, man.

If you don't like Songweaver's general view of your Alpha, address him on that. But quit chasing him over things you don't like. Stay on the base standards you set for others, much less the higher ones Staff--or Head-of-Game Staff--ought to be held to.

ETA: Nobody's flooding this thread thread *you* post in with random B.S. related to how you didn't actually finish Warcraft, or anything else you could be called on. Again, c'mon.


I'm literally working on WarCraft this very minute.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:23 pm

Nimrod wrote:
tehkory wrote:Honestly, if at any point one player chased another player over multiple threads to aggressively call them a liar and a cheater on points they didn't feel like talking about/addressing, you'd tell them to stay on topic and/or threaten them with a ban. Staff ought to be better. C'mon, man.

If you don't like Songweaver's general view of your Alpha, address him on that. But quit chasing him over things you don't like. Stay on the base standards you set for others, much less the higher ones Staff--or Head-of-Game Staff--ought to be held to.

ETA: Nobody's flooding this thread thread *you* post in with random B.S. related to how you didn't actually finish Warcraft, or anything else you could be called on. Again, c'mon.


I'm literally working on WarCraft this very minute.

Right, and that's your perogative, and I don't think anybody *needs* to chase you over it. So get the Hell on topic, yeah? The topic isn't Warcraft. It's not Problems Nimrod Has With Songweaver, so stay on topic.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Bones » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:26 pm

tehkory wrote:(edited by Nimrod - Knock it off, Bones.)


[edited again by Nimrod to remove a completely offensive post]
Last edited by Bones on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:32 pm

Bones and Tehkory, knock it off. Bones, clean up your language and Tehkory please remove that ridiculous link from your sig.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Letters » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:41 pm

This forum isn't very pretty from the point of view of an intermittent lurker.

I'm looking for cool stories, stuff to explore, and NPC villains and monsters for PCs to go fight. I don't particularly care where in Middle-earth that stuff is even set. I'm not really up for crafting and shops and stuff, and certainly not for combat between PCs. I'd have been pretty happy with just Utterby if it was all about adventure and such. I think RPAs are pretty darn important even if other staff are focused on building whatever - RPI players are very much a finite resource.

That said, if old SoI were run again, starting from 2460 again, I'd play the heck out of that.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Brian » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:20 am

Letters wrote:This forum isn't very pretty from the point of view of an intermittent lurker.

I'm looking for cool stories, stuff to explore, and NPC villains and monsters for PCs to go fight. I don't particularly care where in Middle-earth that stuff is even set. I'm not really up for crafting and shops and stuff, and certainly not for combat between PCs. I'd have been pretty happy with just Utterby if it was all about adventure and such. I think RPAs are pretty darn important even if other staff are focused on building whatever - RPI players are very much a finite resource.

That said, if old SoI were run again, starting from 2460 again, I'd play the heck out of that.


I hear you letters. It's been a pretty up and down affair on the forums recently. I also agree that RPAs are important when there is the structure in place to support them.

The thing about SoI right now is that everyone is comparing it to the SoI that was. I think this is unfair; this is a spiritual successor, certainly, but it's also a brand new game. I played the original SoI back when it was a brand new game, and to begin with it consisted of one room; the Wizard Cafe in Minas Tirith. That was all that existed while the original staff created the original RPI code, created the gameworld, and everything that would be needed to make it playable. Yet players would occasionally drop in all the same, even try to RP with each other, even though all that existed was four walls and a bar.

People waited around then and we're going to have to wait around now. Would you rather have only the Ironwood Inn and that's it? I sure wouldn't. It seems like people are upset at times that the game hasn't sprung fully formed from the forehead of Nimrod, like Athena from Zeus. That just isn't how it's going to be.

I really think that at this point if you're just unsatisfied playing a game that's in an Alpha state, if you aren't getting the plot and administration love that you need, you should maybe try a different game for awhile to satisfy your needs while this one -finishes getting built-. This game isn't finished. If you want a finished product ready for player action, you'll have to try something else. Like I said before, anyone playing right now is a play tester. Perhaps there have been staff interactions in the past, or some admin driven plots, but those should be the exception, not the rule while the game is finished and made fully ready for action.

Now I do agree with Icarus that RPAs are not going to spring forth fully formed either. I don't know how the staff advancement program works exactly but I'm under the impression that everyone starts out as a builder...which makes a lot of sense to me since they're trying to complete building a game which will then have the tools needed to do some fine RPAing in. Perhaps the beta phase will start when the building and coding is for the most part finished and it will be a phase of training RPAs, getting some small stuff started, and the game will officially open when the RPA staff is ready to take flight completely? That'd be pretty cool if it were so.

I love the Tolkien setting and I've been involved with SoI for 12 plus years. This isn't the SoI that Traithe built; this isn't the SoI that Japheth ran. This isn't the SoI of Kite, Songweaver, and Phoenix. This is an entirely new project that bears the same name but is starting from the ground up. I'm willing to wait for it to be finished, just like I waited originally for there to be more than the Wizard Cafe. If you aren't, then check back periodically to see if the game has progressed out of Alpha, and try it again then. Don't expect it to be fully open right now though. That just isn't what it is at the moment.

Perhaps you consider it a mistake to have allowed players to enter the game before it was fully ready; there's certainly an argument that could be made there. However, it is what it is, and if it isn't for you at the moment, don't lament it not being so; either support it to help it get there, or check out for a little bit and come back later with the passion and enthusiasm you have when it is meeting your expectations a bit more.
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Re: Are we in Alpha?

Postby Songweaver » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:42 am

tehkory wrote:This thread's a trainwreck. In the middle of that trainwreck, you're probably going to want (some form) of an answer. Here it is:
And, more fully on topic:
It's defined as an Alpha by Staff. It's not your traditional Alpha, no. It's much, much, much more like a Beta than any Alpha you've been in, and yet still certain things are lacking/non-existent until they're implemented by Staff. It's essentially a fully-completed and realized gameworld, with all the tools required, but Staff have a different vision and are putting the general running of the game aside in favor of long-term building goals.

That's their vision, and while I don't favor it, they're committed.



This, pretty much. Like I said, right now, SOI is a game that can be enjoyed by players who prioritize social "live life" interaction and PvP skirmishes. It's not a game for people who want in depth plot, meaningful PvE action/content, or exploration/adventure. Do I hope that changes with Laketown? Absolutely. Am I skeptical? Unfortunately, I am. I wasn't a year ago, or even seven months ago. But my skepticism is, really, pretty meaningless for SOI.

I'll address the off-topic confronting of me, but briefly, since I don't think that I was clear enough before.

Nimrod wrote:
tehkory wrote:This question is 'some guy on Staff said something, and they shouldn't've, who was it?' It's really not that big of a deal.

Ask your own Staff. And if they don't respect you enough to tell you, that's probably a bigger problem than a player not following rules they never agreed to.


The exact question was: Are you a liar or a cheater, and if you're a cheater, who is cheating with you? It's simple. I'm holding him to his own standards.

I know the answer, of course. It's not a matter of rules really, it's simple ethics.


It is a matter of simple ethics. People came to me with concerns of cheating, wanting my opinion on it based on my understanding of the engine. I came to you, privately first, with those concerns.

Nothing happened.

Other people (note: not me) started an uproar thread, because players aren't dumb and are good at smelling what stinks. I chimed in three or four pages into the thread, without pointing fingers at any specific staff members. I sent you (for a second time) specific details to support these concerns.

Nothing happened, except that you demanded to know what players or admins would dare be concerned enough to share information with me.

I refuse to give that information to you, because I feel like your scrutiny should be focused on the things/admins who were crossing the line of what the public perceives as cheating, and not on the players or admins who were concerned that that line was being crossed in the first place.

That's how my ethics work. Maybe I don't have the same values as you, but I'm certainly not lying or cheating, to be told something by someone else and then share that information with you. And that's that.

Like TehKory, like Nimrod, like Brian, and maybe even like Bones, I just want to see SOI succeed. I feel like it's floundering. Are my opinions on what might help it needed? Are they wanted? Am I wanted? Maybe/probably not. Despite being regularly trashed and trolled any time I share my thoughts, I keep participating anyways, and it's only for one reason:

That's how <expletive> much I care about this <expletive> place. Just like everyone else who is posting on this thread.
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