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PVP - A player discussion

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PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:28 am

Hi.

Wanted to get a nice, polite, and friendly convo started in regards to PvP.

Things are starting to ramp up IG, and a few cross-sphere interactions have starting to take place.

I've had the priviledge of coming into PvP situations across a variety of pc's, against a variety of pc's, and have always been very satisfied with the roleplay I was involved with (last night was pretty awesome, for one).

Here's a few topics though I'd like to cover and get a feel of the playerbases thoughts on.

1 - Expectations of PvP.

When it comes to PvP, my personal expectations is that there will be rp beyond charging into the fray and going hack-to-the-slash. A few emotes back and forth and switch over to code is fine, but typically the more roleplay, obviously the more satisfying an experience.

2 - Leading a PvP party

So you're leading a PvP party, and the enemy comes into sight! But you've got reckless orcs, new players, and hack-n-slashers in tow...one of them, didn't even emote before charging and typing kill tark.

What do you do as the opposing leader. You can't force people to stay in line, so...what actions do you take? I'm of a mind you let the charger aheader duke it out with all the enemies and probably fall, and then continue on and hopefully pick up on roleplaying and incorporate into the scene. Has anyone ever experienced this successfully?

3 - What to do with enemy combatants

Yar! Theres three unconscious Tarks on the ground! We Won! But now what? Do we gut these tarks? Do we strip em and leave em? Haul them back to the caves? Last year, I was able to capture and return a human pc, and it opened up a ransom type plot that had some merits, but ultimately ended up with a dead human. How does one balance "What your pc would do realistically" and "What the player would do to support the game and future encounters?" It looks like orc side, we may have an outlet for some sort of slave style workaround with the incoming easterlings, but what would a guardsman do to possibly keep an orkish player alive?

Anyways, I'm sure more will come up, but I think this is a good start. Looking forward to reading some viewpoints.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:44 am

Kudos to the four players who took part in PvP last night. It was wonderful to see, you know who you are!
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:55 am

Faroukel wrote:3 - What to do with enemy combatants

Yar! Theres three unconscious Tarks on the ground! We Won! But now what? Do we gut these tarks? Do we strip em and leave em? Haul them back to the caves? Last year, I was able to capture and return a human pc, and it opened up a ransom type plot that had some merits, but ultimately ended up with a dead human. How does one balance "What your pc would do realistically" and "What the player would do to support the game and future encounters?" It looks like orc side, we may have an outlet for some sort of slave style workaround with the incoming easterlings, but what would a guardsman do to possibly keep an orkish player alive?


We are actually working on this. We are actively encouraging people to use the 'surrender' command if they are in combat and feel they are on the losing end and want to survive.

If you are an orc and take a human captive, you'll be able to run a prog (along with the human) to place him/her in a set of caves where they will be required to do mining crafts for a set period of time. Eventually they will be able to escape from these mines and hopefully make it home. A prisoner's chances of escape and survival are fairly high, approaching 90%.

The player who captured the prisoner will be richly rewarded, both with in-game goods and out-of-character kudos and possibly rpp. (We're also working on making rpp more easy for you to use and spend on your existing characters rather than having to wait to use them on your next character.)

The same is true for humans capturing bad guys. You'll be able to turn them over to the Citadel, where they will be placed in a work camp (or cavern), and after an appropriate time they may be able to escape and get back to their home clan.

I'm hoping the rewards we offer will give enough incentive to use the prisoner system. (Feel free to roleplay this manually for now if you like and I'll dole out some rewards myself.)

It takes a huge leap of faith to use the 'surrender' command... but I think it can probably be the biggest thrill for a player to do so. I'm not talking about the few minute rush of adrenaline you get in combat... I'm talking about the sustained rush of roleplaying when you have no idea what's going to happen. You're putting your character in to your captive's hands and you don't know if they will toss you in a cell or just kill you outright.

We would have standing orders that any enemy taken alive should be turned over to higher ups for further questioning, so there's always an in-game incentive to show mercy to a player from the other side.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:58 am

1 - Expectations of PvP.

When it comes to PvP, my personal expectations is that there will be rp beyond charging into the fray and going hack-to-the-slash. A few emotes back and forth and switch over to code is fine, but typically the more roleplay, obviously the more satisfying an experience.


If you're going to PVP, poke Staff. They help with issues 2 and 3, and I'll get to that.

2 - Leading a PvP party

So you're leading a PvP party, and the enemy comes into sight! But you've got reckless orcs, new players, and hack-n-slashers in tow...one of them, didn't even emote before charging and typing kill tark.

What do you do as the opposing leader. You can't force people to stay in line, so...what actions do you take? I'm of a mind you let the charger aheader duke it out with all the enemies and probably fall, and then continue on and hopefully pick up on roleplaying and incorporate into the scene. Has anyone ever experienced this successfully?

Usually easier in my experience to go "OOC hey stop that," or have Staff force stop. Usually. Your alternative's pretty okay.

One thing I'll comment on is that if you want a fun fight, as a leader, don't let it go to ranged combat.


3 - What to do with enemy combatants

...but what would a guardsman do to possibly keep an orkish player alive?


Honestly, I prefer something else entirely from what Nimrod's got planned, but it's hard to have it be ICly viable with a bounty on live _or_ dead enemies. I don't much feel like I'm in a Tolkien setting if orcs are just guaranteed their lives back(nearly) after being shoved off to a work camp, and I'm more than half-tempted to say that captive humans are one thing, but maybe that less mercy is the IC price of playing an orc, and now that there's another option, we leave it at that.

My suggestion, to be used sparingly regarding orcs? Loot and leave for dead. They make it back, lucky them. You're not all-knowing, and you beat it until it stopped moving. Maybe you thought your enemy was dead, or near enough to make no difference?

I'd rather not see the bounty system expanded, but if it's the way of things, so be it, you know? Still, it just doesn't feel right ICly.

ETA: On point three and Staff, get those wounded a transfer ideally, or clanning, or the guards are gonna git 'em.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:02 pm

There's definitely a tricky balance as to what feels right IC, is canon and makes sense, as opposed to what's best for the game itself, nurtures plots, develops players, and so on.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:57 pm

tehkory wrote:Honestly, I prefer something else entirely from what Nimrod's got planned, but it's hard to have it be ICly viable with a bounty on live _or_ dead enemies. I don't much feel like I'm in a Tolkien setting if orcs are just guaranteed their lives back(nearly) after being shoved off to a work camp, and I'm more than half-tempted to say that captive humans are one thing, but maybe that less mercy is the IC price of playing an orc, and now that there's another option, we leave it at that.
I'm keen to hear what your option here is, Tehkory. We have not even begun work on our bounty system, we're just hashing out the idea behind the scenes. Please chime in. Open another thread if you like (preferred, actually).

tehkory wrote:My suggestion, to be used sparingly regarding orcs? Loot and leave for dead. They make it back, lucky them. You're not all-knowing, and you beat it until it stopped moving. Maybe you thought your enemy was dead, or near enough to make no difference?
This can be used on both sides for sure, but yes, I've seen people do this in the past and have given rpp for it.

tehkory wrote:I'd rather not see the bounty system expanded, but if it's the way of things, so be it, you know? Still, it just doesn't feel right ICly.
I realize it doesn't sit well with a character. The idea of an orc getting away just rankles. I look forward to hearing your options. Remember, we're not going to force anything on anyone when it comes to this. If your character feels it's the right thing to do, then they should do it. Just so long as it's done with plenty of roleplay and is fully in-character.

tehkory wrote:ETA: On point three and Staff, get those wounded a transfer ideally, or clanning, or the guards are gonna git 'em.
Yeah... the last one I clanned, but it was too late because the archer already had him identified as an enemy, so it doesn't matter what his clan is after that. That was all my fault. But yes, we'd have some way of temporarily allowing clanning to keep npcs from ganking a prisoner.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16 pm

I'm keen to hear what your option here is, Tehkory. We have not even begun work on our bounty system, we're just hashing out the idea behind the scenes. Please chime in. Open another thread if you like (preferred, actually).


I'm not an orc-player, but I think maybe just one of the racial features of people playing orcs is that they just get a little less mercy and a little more violence from Men. If wargs are still to-be-playable(and I hope they are!), I'd say the same about them! Not really a need for a separate thread just yet.

This can be used on both sides for sure, but yes, I've seen people do this in the past and have given rpp for it.

Absolutely, it's just harder when you're leaving seven to fifteen silver behind when you do it, you know? Once groups get past a certain size, too...

Yeah... the last one I clanned, but it was too late because the archer already had him identified as an enemy, so it doesn't matter what his clan is after that. That was all my fault. But yes, we'd have some way of temporarily allowing clanning to keep npcs from ganking a prisoner.


Nobody's fault--first PvP upon being back for all-concerned. It happens. Why threads like this are great.

Faroukel wrote:There's definitely a tricky balance as to what feels right IC, is canon and makes sense, as opposed to what's best for the game itself, nurtures plots, develops players, and so on.

Absolutely. I think the orcs/goblins/et cetera have the easier side of it, too. It's a hard sell, keeping orcs alive--I think really the only solution is removing the bounty and encouraging players to have their wounded PCs not really be up for dragging a 'dying corpse'(wink wink) home for absolutely no reward whatsoever...also, "sending a message" is always nice.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:24 pm

Nimrod wrote:If your character feels it's the right thing to do, then they should do it. Just so long as it's done with plenty of roleplay and is fully in-character.


Agreed, completely.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:45 pm

2 - Leading a PvP party

So usually, back when I was doing some heavy leading 3 or so years ago, I would always wait till my party was gathered, stop them, and have an OOC conversation with them telling them what I expected from them during this outing, which mostly boiled down to: "If we get into the same room as enemy combatants, stop and RP with them first. If they attack us first, then all bets are off, cut them down."

Because, let's face it, what your party does in a PVP situation is going to boil down to what the opposing party does, 90% of the time. The only thing you can do is try to drive home the fact that you're looking for RP out of a PVP situation above PKs beforehand, and hope that everything goes accordingly, because I promise you after the first person types hit/kill you're not getting anymore RP until after the fighting is over.

3 - What to do with enemy combatants

Really, when it comes down to it lore-wise, neither humans nor orcs are going to let the other live if taken captive. Probably the most lenient thing I could think of, RP-wise, would be just assuming that a KO PC is dead (even though you can obviously tell codedly that they are alive), looting them, and leaving them.

With the addition of Easterlings I could see prisoners getting taken captive/ransomed, but I just really don't see an orc letting a human go, or vice versa.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:33 pm

A lot of good points all around.

One thing I'll say, is that for orcs, all they need is one good reason -not- to gut the Tarks and take prisoners to set the tone. Usually it's because someone bigger and badder wants the prisoners for themselves, alive.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Brian » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:19 pm

krelm wrote:Really, when it comes down to it lore-wise, neither humans nor orcs are going to let the other live if taken captive. Probably the most lenient thing I could think of, RP-wise, would be just assuming that a KO PC is dead (even though you can obviously tell codedly that they are alive), looting them, and leaving them.


I'm a big fan of this one, leaving a KO PC for dead.

I'm also a big fan of something that I think is somewhat more disputed; allowing an opponent to use the stop command, and letting them RP escaping. It can be incredibly difficult to catch in the scroll of combat, especially if there are many combatants, but if an opponent put in stop with me I would absolutely oblige them and let them lead the scene from there. If they RP trying to run away and my character has suffered some wounds I'd most likely let them and have my character be gasping raggedly for breath, examining his own wounds, being swept up in the continued combat around him, tripping over something as he tries to pursue because of exhaustion, etc.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby tehkory » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:13 pm

Addendum to all previous and further advice and discussion in this thread: using 'kill' _or_ strike <area> to initiate PvP is probably non-kosher.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:27 am

I'm actually in favour of strike command being removed entirely.

The kill command too. Might as well make people use hit, and then when the enemy is unconscious, force them to hit again to kill.

No unintentional consequences.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Tykanis » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:52 am

I believe the character in question was mostly afk at the time. Good Rp from both sides and look forward to future encounters, hopefully smaller groups though, always makes in more interesting not all focussing on one person as well, nor as mind numbing.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Tykanis » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:55 am

That combat gave me flashbacks to Carrion Fields though with the speed someone got dropped. Primarily due to the numbers vs individual skill I believe though. As I said in my prior post however, codedly all focus on one person makes sense but from an rp point perhaps not. Correct me if I am wrong but most medieval combat ended up being thousands of mini 1v1's or 2v1's unless ypu had a large number advantage.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:59 am

Something that also has been dwelling in my mind.

When in combat, make sure to emote out as often as possible.

Next time I'll probably have a combat filter set to weed out a lot of stuff, and will need emotes to get a feel for what is happening.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby tehkory » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:25 am

Faroukel wrote:I'm actually in favour of strike command being removed entirely.

The kill command too. Might as well make people use hit, and then when the enemy is unconscious, force them to hit again to kill.

No unintentional consequences.


Strike being removed entirely removes a lot of tactical choice from combat--I can see why someone might want it removed, but...I'm loathe to see it happen. It'd be almost as bad as removing things like ward/shield-bash/feint.

Honestly, the death was just a consequence of us _all_ being rusty, and not doing enough pre-scene coaching via OOC, I imagine.

You use kill and people die early--okay against mobs, sucks that it happened...but it's been years. We're rusty. Forgive and move forward hoping and striving for something better, you know?
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Frigga » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:44 am

I wonder if a compromise assuming it is feasible is that combat against an opponent ceasing when they go unconscious, thus ... purposefully needing to use a kill/finish command than it being possibly accidental.

For the record, no one in the latest PK seems upset or that there is something to forgive. Just the opposite, all comments seem to be that the RP was overall great. Which is wonderful to hear. :D

I think people are just putting out ideas on how to possibly improve things.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby krelm » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:23 pm

It shouldn't be very hard at all to make the strike command cease combat after your target goes KO.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Faroukel » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:27 pm

For sure, absolutely agree that the overall intent is to find the balance and try to improve the experience.

I personally think it would be awesome if kill was just disabled overall (other games do this) and that strike would pause combat when the opposing combatant is knocked unconscious.

All it means is just another set of hit/strike command entered to ensure the pk afterwards, if that's the true intent, and reduce on accidental deaths.

I know I made quite a few typos in the heat of 'battle', and it would be easy to type kill instead of hit by mistake in certain situations.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby krelm » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:34 pm

The only issue with disabling kill is that it would make PVE incredibly tedious.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Tepes » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:52 pm

Disable kill. Add an execute command?
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby MrT2G » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:56 pm

Disabling <kill> may be the best solution. Alternatively, you could just make it have the same result as using <hit>.

<strike target location> is more effective for finishing off opponents already.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Tykanis » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:55 am

To bump my earlier statement. Currently all combat turns into all focus badguy#1 or all focus good guy#1, codedly speaking that is how you put the hurt on someone and makes sense rp wise if you have a large number advantage. However, it does not make much sense when you have two equally sized or one slightly larger group as with just about any fight involving two parties, generally speaking in real life you get into a bunch of 1v1 or 1v2 situations assuming your buddy want to help you out. This is across the board, street brawls, medieval combats, not much of an let's all gang up on this dude to kill him first leaving me exposed to dudes x, y, and z in the process. Not trying to say dont use code to your advantage as both sides are guilty of it but I feel like fights wouldn't be so sudden and more realistic if it were more a vs a1, b vs b1, and depending on the number advantage or disadvantage c vs c1 and d1.
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Re: PVP - A player discussion

Postby Tykanis » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:56 am

I apologize for any and all grammatical errors as I typed this out on my phone
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