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RPP Proposal

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Is this a good idea?

Yes
23
79%
I'm not sure
4
14%
No
2
7%
 
Total votes : 29

RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:43 pm

(Please take the time to read and understand fully before voting)

I am proposing a change to how we allow you to spend RPP.

We will now track your MAX RPP level, along with CURRENT RPP level. i.e. CURRENT / MAX (3/5).

Players may spend RPP immediately and will be able to request an RPP be returned to them at a rate of 1 per month, up to their MAX.

What will players be able to do with their RPP?

This is by no means a definitive list, it's just meant to provide talking points.

1 RPP
Opening a standard skill
Skill Boost
Additional Room for clan hall
Doorguard for clan hall
Extra in-game Message Board

2 RPP
Open a Rogue Skill
Custom Clan
1 Point Stat Boost (2 max)
Customized Object (no stat boosts)
Clan Specific Craft
Open non-master craft
Loan of up to 2000 cp for AU License

3 RPP
Loan of 5000 cp for Custom Clan Hall for player-run clan (3 rooms, in-game board, 2 keys)

4 RPP
Loan of 7500 cp for Custom AU Shop (4 rooms furnished, in-game board, custom clan, shopkeeper, doorguard with key)

Variable RPP
Specific Roles in chargen.

Custom requests - players can make custom requests and we will tell you the rpp cost. i.e. I want to have a super-secret clan hall that's based out in the woods and has a secret passage leading up to a storefront in Utterby.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby PhocsM » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:50 pm

I assume we have to provide an actual reason and rp accordingly right? Nothing like "Hey boss, I saw how to cut trees and now I can do it"
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Tykanis » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:59 pm

Now I have a couple of questions.
1. The 1 RPP door guard, is this for an additional door guard or just for the first one?
2. By open a non-master craft do you mean as in adding a new craft to the game that isn't a master craft or a pseudo teach to give your PC said craft?
3. How would how much your skill get boosted? By X number of points or from level to level, such as adroit to master or so on and so forth.
4. Is the item custom by look or can it be something such as a steel weapon in a place where decent iron is a miracle sometimes.
5. Aren't the rogue skills already available assuming you pick the correct initial skills during chargen to gain access? Or is this for already active PC's to receive a teach of sorts for it.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:13 pm

adroit to master

Please no. Between the skill-bloat of sparring to master or higher, the MUD being half-dead for a year or two. Skillboosts probably shouldn't even get you to adroit.

All-in-all, the OOC stuff existing for RPP is something I 100% support. If you want a clan, you should be trusted with RPP enough to run it. I also like the idea of stat boosts, so nobody feels half as forced to roll into an RPP PC just because they have it.

Skill boosts I can't argue, skill openings should just be left to teach and/or learning-by-doing, but mostly because it's probably a waste of 1 month's worth of RPP requests for most things.

The loans are weird, and IC trustworthiness=/=currently stored RPP.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:27 pm

The reason I say 'yes' for skill openers is this. At 1 rpp, you've got some trust accumulated. Enough that you shouldn't immediately act stupid and say 'Lol, I watched that guy hit metal with a hammer, and now I can make swords'. As well, not all skills are at all times available to learn IG. As mentioned, we did just come back from a dead spot. There are large holes in the self-sustainability matrix.

Opening those skills puts the burden on players to be careful with what they learn, so they don't max out and are unable to gain further.

As to RPP for stat boosts.. As a player who has played RPP characters.. Three times this iteration, and those three as RPP races.. We didn't get stat bonuses. Not sure if that was because of staff at the time or not. So it would be nice.


I'd also dig if skill-maxes were determined by how they used to be, via the main stats for them. Intelligence is great for overall cap on skill points, experience or whatever.. But it's ridiculous if you want to make a master woodworker, get the stats listed for it, drop int to a lower priority, and now you can never get adroit or master.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:34 pm

While I like the idea of this, I don't particularly like some of the examples listed, and have a couple of questions besides.

Questions first:
1. How do you raise your max RPP?
2. How often can you raise your max RPP?
3. Do you request for you max RPP to be raised like your current RPP, or does it just happen?
4. What are the requirements for max RPP? The same as ever? What are the requirements for current RPP? Just asking?

Criticism second:
1 RPP
Opening a standard skill: This is okay, though I don't see why anyone would do this other than just grind it for free
Skill Boost: If this was something like +5 I'd be okay with it, but see above
Additional Room for clan hall: This is okay. I'm okay with charging RPP for anything that admins have to do for players like this, as long as it doesn't become something like paying RPP for RPTs or something ridiculous
Doorguard for clan hall: See above, though I don't particularly like the idea of separating the PB behind locked doors. There are only 10-15 active players, and giving them all private locked clanhalls will just fracture the PB further.

(As a note, that may sound ironic coming from a player who made his own orc clan when the game opened, but the rooms I made for my clan were entirely accessible by anyone, orcs and human alike, the clanhall was just never found)
Extra in-game Message Board: See above

2 RPP
Open a Rogue Skill: See my points on skills above. Okay with it, just don't see why someone would spend RPP for it
Custom Clan: This I'm actually a huge fan of, as long as the clans don't get their own private rooms. I sort of wish players could easily create their own clans like in LabMUD, but alas.
1 Point Stat Boost (2 max): Entirely okay with this
Customized Object (no stat boosts): What quality? What material? This is sort of a slippery slope
Clan Specific Craft: This is okay, but making crafts is a huge hassle and there's already enough craft bloat as there is. Just seems like a lot of work for not much payoff
Open non-master craft: Okay with this
Loan of up to 2000 cp for AU License: Where does the money come from?

3 RPP
Loan of 5000 cp for Custom Clan Hall for player-run clan (3 rooms, in-game board, 2 keys): See above. Okay with new clans, not okay with them being locked away from everyone else. It fosters the mentality of "I'm just going to sit in my clanhall and RP with my friends and hoard all our gear and the rest of the game be damned."

4 RPP
Loan of 7500 cp for Custom AU Shop (4 rooms furnished, in-game board, custom clan, shopkeeper, doorguard with key): I'm okay with this, but see above. I'd prefer if it was a 2 room shop (store front, store room), 1 key, 1 shopkeep (somewhat buff to prevent twinking but the PC has to outfit the NPC), no safequit rooms, no custom clan


Those are just my thoughts. In summation: clans are awesome, clan halls are bad, I like the idea of being able to spend RPP on stuff as long as it doesn't become pay-RPP-for-an-RPT or anything ridiculous like that.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby krelm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:36 pm

bones wrote:I'd also dig if skill-maxes were determined by how they used to be, via the main stats for them.


As a brief off-topic, this is how they're determined. IIRC each skill has its own equation that determines its cap. The only think int determines is your overall cap, which is all skill points combined.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm

Hmm.. Changes were made to the Wiki back in July.. It was, at least in the Wiki, stated for a time that Int determined the cap on each skill period. But that may have just been a bad entry.

Why get a craft opened to you rather than grind it for free? Some skills you -can- learn by doing openers for it. But woodcraft does not have them. Nor does Medicine, Stonecraft, Mining, Brewing, and others. And while some of these you can find via player interaction, others you cannot.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:08 pm

Bones wrote:Hmm.. Changes were made to the Wiki back in July.. It was, at least in the Wiki, stated for a time that Int determined the cap on each skill period. But that may have just been a bad entry.

Why get a craft opened to you rather than grind it for free? Some skills you -can- learn by doing openers for it. But woodcraft does not have them. Nor does Medicine, Stonecraft, Mining, Brewing, and others. And while some of these you can find via player interaction, others you cannot.

Medicine does(IIRC), it's just the means for getting it and raising it are a little obtuse, from what I remember(it should raise on arrow wound treatments/removals, because those used to be gunshot wounds, and that made more sense then)

And all others probably should(read: it's bad if/that they don't) have means of entering into them.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:43 pm

tehkory wrote:And all others probably should(read: it's bad if/that they don't) have means of entering into them.


If reasonable starters were added so that people could access the crafts that make sense, I'd be all for removal of the opener option from the proposed set of RPP stuff.

As to the loans.. Well.. I could see that, except I was under the impression we had a PC or two IC that were reps of the AU, that -could- get folks loans.

1RPP - A pet or npc animal companion that makes racial sense.
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Rhovanion - Dog?
Beorning - Giant bear
Orc - Goblin
Goblin - Rat
Dwarf - Raven
Rohirrim - Hair brush
Daleman - Fish
Dunadan - Mirror
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm

Tykanis wrote:Now I have a couple of questions.
1. The 1 RPP door guard, is this for an additional door guard or just for the first one?

Either?

Tykanis wrote:2. By open a non-master craft do you mean as in adding a new craft to the game that isn't a master craft or a pseudo teach to give your PC said craft?

It's intended to allow you to have a craft added to your character's craft list, but like I said, the list is not set in stone. It's a talking point.

Tykanis wrote:3. How would how much your skill get boosted? By X number of points or from level to level, such as adroit to master or so on and so forth.

I'm debating that, but it would definitely NOT be a boost from adroit to master. It would likely be anywhere from 5 to 10 points.

This particular purchase is meant to help those players that do not grind skills (yes, we have a number of these players). The boost you'd get from this purchase would be akin to grinding for 4 or 5 days, so the boost won't be huge, but it'll make a big difference to the long-lived character that does not grind skills.

Tykanis wrote:4. Is the item custom by look or can it be something such as a steel weapon in a place where decent iron is a miracle sometimes.

By look only, we're not going to modify stats on weapons or armor.

Tykanis wrote:5. Aren't the rogue skills already available assuming you pick the correct initial skills during chargen to gain access? Or is this for already active PC's to receive a teach of sorts for it.

Yep, they're available in chargen, but we're charging more for them because some are rpp restricted. We may even add a few other skills to this list of 2 rpp purchases.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:12 pm

PhocsM wrote:I assume we have to provide an actual reason and rp accordingly right? Nothing like "Hey boss, I saw how to cut trees and now I can do it"

Pretty much. We're going to apply common sense to these boosts, and if we feel you're asking for something that your character just wouldn't know or shouldn't know, such as Sindarin, we'll tell you, or ask you to provide a reason and roleplay.

On the other hand, if you're a soldier and ask for a boost to your longsword or shield, we probably won't ask any questions and just give it to you.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:15 pm

tehkory wrote:
adroit to master
Skill boosts I can't argue, skill openings should just be left to teach and/or learning-by-doing, but mostly because it's probably a waste of 1 month's worth of RPP requests for most things.

The loans are weird, and IC trustworthiness=/=currently stored RPP.

TEACH is disabled. It seems like you understand what I'm trying to do with the skill boosts, thanks. Opening skills may need a bit more oversight or rules, but the point of this is to not write a ton of rules, but instead make it simple and apply good common sense.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence in my quote above.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Bones wrote:As to RPP for stat boosts.. As a player who has played RPP characters.. Three times this iteration, and those three as RPP races.. We didn't get stat bonuses. Not sure if that was because of staff at the time or not. So it would be nice.

There are racial stat boosts, and you've had them, you just didn't know it. :)

Bones wrote:I'd also dig if skill-maxes were determined by how they used to be, via the main stats for them. Intelligence is great for overall cap on skill points, experience or whatever.. But it's ridiculous if you want to make a master woodworker, get the stats listed for it, drop int to a lower priority, and now you can never get adroit or master.

We're not going to change the cap process. Intelligence is NOT a throwaway skill and we're not going to make it a throwaway skill.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:33 pm

krelm wrote:1. How do you raise your max RPP?

What you know now as RPP is your MAX RPP. You raise it just like always, by playing well and often. You can continue to raise your MAX RPP, even if you've spent all of them.

i.e.
I am an above average player, so I have 3 RPP now. Under the new system, I have 3/3. I spend two RPP on skill boosts, now I have 1/3. I continue playing hard and am noticed for my elite roleplay abilities and an admin awards me an rpp, now my level is 2/4. 30 days rolls by after I spent my rpp, I set my status and my spent rpp is regenerated to 3/4. Another month rolls by and I ask again, and now my rpp is 4/4.

krelm wrote:2. How often can you raise your max RPP?

We're sticking with the base RPP requirements from before, but we've relaxed some of the time restraints. For the most part we won't award an additional rpp for around a month. That absolutely does not mean that you're going to ramp up to 6 RPP in six months. Our time between awards is a minimum requirement only, and we reserve the right to determine when players have earned an RPP, just like always.

krelm wrote:3. Do you request for you max RPP to be raised like your current RPP, or does it just happen?

You would never request to have your MAX rpp raised. You would request to have some of your spent rpp returned to you though, and that would only happen a month after you spent them.

krelm wrote:4. What are the requirements for max RPP? The same as ever? What are the requirements for current RPP? Just asking?

Yes. MAX RPP is the same as ever. Current RPP cannot be denied to you by staff as long as you are an active player.

Krelm's unasked question wrote:What do you mean by 'active'?

It is a subjective term, and it's our intent to allow those spending a few hours per week playing to be considered active. Once again, it's a judgement call by staff. We wish you to interact with other players, so that's a very important bit when we determine if you're active or not.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:35 pm

krelm wrote: as long as it doesn't become something like paying RPP for RPTs or something ridiculous


Absolutely not! We will -never- require anyone to spend rpp for our RPA's attention or plots.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:48 pm

krelm wrote:b]Doorguard for clan hall:[/b] See above, though I don't particularly like the idea of separating the PB behind locked doors. There are only 10-15 active players, and giving them all private locked clanhalls will just fracture the PB further.

Clan Halls are never going to be a right. You will need to apply for one and convince us that what you are asking for is a good thing.

Personally, I am all for more player-run clans, as I think it will draw more players to the game in the long run, and allow you to roleplay with those you want to roleplay with, if that's your thing.

Krelm wrote:Customized Object (no stat boosts): What quality? What material? This is sort of a slippery slope

This is intended to be a modification to descriptions only and would be codily the exact same thing as any other in-game object. We would only change the sdesc, ldesc and full desc. NO mods to stats.

Krelm wrote:Loan of up to 2000 cp for AU License: Where does the money come from?

From the Artisan's Union. They are investing in you and expect a generous return. Interest rates are high, taxes are high and you'll need to grease the wheels a bit as well.

Krelm wrote:3 RPP
Loan of 5000 cp for Custom Clan Hall for player-run clan (3 rooms, in-game board, 2 keys): See above. Okay with new clans, not okay with them being locked away from everyone else. It fosters the mentality of "I'm just going to sit in my clanhall and RP with my friends and hoard all our gear and the rest of the game be damned."

I disagree. If you can convince me why a clan should exist, I'm happy to help you get the clanhall. Most folks will still venture out to roleplay with others, but if you want to have a clanhall and roleplay with your friends, why should I interfere with what you want to do?

If you want to play an intellectual who only roleplays with other intellectuals, and sit in your clanhall discussing all the ins and outs of the history of Laketown, or something along those lines, I'm fine with it. I mean, in the end, if you have a clan of 3 players and the three of you enjoy roleplaying with one another, why should we stand in the way and say no?

If we say no, then you're just not going to play our game. Who loses in that scenario?

Krelm wrote:Those are just my thoughts. In summation: clans are awesome, clan halls are bad, I like the idea of being able to spend RPP on stuff as long as it doesn't become pay-RPP-for-an-RPT or anything ridiculous like that.

Thanks for the feedback. No, we'll NEVER become a pay-RPP for an RPT or animations game.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:52 pm

Bones wrote:Why get a craft opened to you rather than grind it for free? Some skills you -can- learn by doing openers for it. But woodcraft does not have them. Nor does Medicine, Stonecraft, Mining, Brewing, and others. And while some of these you can find via player interaction, others you cannot.


Plus, there are a lot of players that just don't want to grind. I totally understand their not wanting to grind as well. They want to roleplay, to have adventure, grinding skills is just that... a grind, and that's not why they play.

Allowing players to purchase skill boosts allows these non-grinders the ability to increase their skills. Yes, it does allow grinders to increase their skills too, but it really doesn't help them all that much, because they're grinding anyway.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:54 pm

I'd also dig if skill-maxes were determined by how they used to be, via the main stats for them. Intelligence is great for overall cap on skill points, experience or whatever.. But it's ridiculous if you want to make a master woodworker, get the stats listed for it, drop int to a lower priority, and now you can never get adroit or master.

So skills have primary and secondary, and int's probably just the secondary is all.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Bones wrote:As to the loans.. Well.. I could see that, except I was under the impression we had a PC or two IC that were reps of the AU, that -could- get folks loans.

Yes... we will have folks that can give loans in-game. We may work with them to expedite rpp-purchased loans, but will never stand in their way if someone works with them in-game to get a loan that way.

Bones wrote:1RPP - A pet or npc animal companion that makes racial sense.
Dorwinion - Cat
Rhovanion - Dog?
Beorning - Giant bear
Orc - Goblin
Goblin - Rat
Dwarf - Raven
Rohirrim - Hair brush
Daleman - Fish
Dunadan - Mirror
Elf - Ent


Pets are a wonderful idea.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby PhocsM » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:06 am

Once it is settled if this will be implemented, will there be another instance to discuss or suggest the list of perks or that's what we should be doing now?
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:49 am

PhocsM wrote:Once it is settled if this will be implemented, will there be another instance to discuss or suggest the list of perks or that's what we should be doing now?


That's what you should be doing now.

I'm considering the possibility of allowing you to spend rpp on a new character to recoup some of the skill points you had with your previous character.

i.e. you have a fairly long lived character that has 700 cumulative skill points built up (average is around 200 at chargen).

2 RPP gets you 50% of your skill points back (so you can bump skills up to a total 350 points)

3 RPP gets you 70% of your skill poitns back (so you can bump skills up to a total of 490)

This is just me spit-balling, so don't rip my head off if you don't like it. My only thought here is that it will help you from having to grind your skills up so hard and will promote actual roleplay.

I'm not sure how much I like the idea either... but it is an idea.

We could also make it so 1 RPP gets you 10% of your previous level to apply as boosts to a new character (less than 24 hours of play time). That's an extremely simple rule and accomplishes pretty much the same thing as above. *shrug*
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:26 am

I actually like that idea, of prior SP being available up to a percentage. That way those that want to make a venerable old soldier don't come in swinging like a buck private. An AU or Orc crafter with decades of experience doesn't come in at familiar.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:56 am

Nimrod wrote:
PhocsM wrote:Once it is settled if this will be implemented, will there be another instance to discuss or suggest the list of perks or that's what we should be doing now?


That's what you should be doing now.

I'm considering the possibility of allowing you to spend rpp on a new character to recoup some of the skill points you had with your previous character.

i.e. you have a fairly long lived character that has 700 cumulative skill points built up (average is around 200 at chargen).

2 RPP gets you 50% of your skill points back (so you can bump skills up to a total 350 points)

3 RPP gets you 70% of your skill poitns back (so you can bump skills up to a total of 490)

This is just me spit-balling, so don't rip my head off if you don't like it. My only thought here is that it will help you from having to grind your skills up so hard and will promote actual roleplay.

I'm not sure how much I like the idea either... but it is an idea.

We could also make it so 1 RPP gets you 10% of your previous level to apply as boosts to a new character (less than 24 hours of play time). That's an extremely simple rule and accomplishes pretty much the same thing as above. *shrug*

Why is this idea better than just giving RPP skill-boosts at a given level, given that that can achieve much the same thing with less math/calculation/complications? It sounds nice, but isn't "RPP gets you skills" the core of both systems?
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby PhocsM » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:00 pm

I think it would be cool to spend RPP to choose skills priorities like stats at chargen.
We aren't equally expert in all we do, though I think this shouldn't be combined with other RPP skill boosts and shouldn't allow too much deviation from the average.
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