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RPP Proposal

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Is this a good idea?

Yes
23
79%
I'm not sure
4
14%
No
2
7%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:24 pm

tehkory wrote:Why is this idea better than just giving RPP skill-boosts at a given level, given that that can achieve much the same thing with less math/calculation/complications? It sounds nice, but isn't "RPP gets you skills" the core of both systems?

I don't think it's any better, just different.

The main difference is that instead of buying a 10 point skill boost for a 2 rpp you could get around 150 skill points (for a new character only). The intent is basically what Bones pointed out.

Yes, the basic premise is 'RPP gets you skills', I just thought it was worth considering allowing for a bit of carry over between characters (as far as skill points went). It's a bit of a reward to you for rolling a new character, or us saying that we respect the time you put in to build up the skills on your previous character, it sucks that he/she died, maybe giving you a bit of a skill boost will help you feel better.

An average to good player has around 2 to 3 roleplay points, so this would allow them to hold on to some of those hard-earned skill points.

I could be all wet though, and part of the allure for grinders is the actual grinding of skills. But I would think if that was the case, they could choose not to take these skill boosts and grind away.

I'm neither for or against this idea at the moment. Merely considering it and asking your opinion as well.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Brian » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:39 pm

It would seem to disproportionately benefit skill grinders however, in a way that static costs per set amount of skill points would not. If one RPP gets you X number of skill points that benefits a player who doesn't raise many skills by a high amount over the course of their PCs life as much as it does the player who had very high skill totals. A proposal that lets you recoup an amount of skills based on previous character skill totals makes RPP worth more to a specific style of play, which I think should be avoided in any RPP proposal.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Icristhus » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:09 pm

Brian wrote:It would seem to disproportionately benefit skill grinders however, in a way that static costs per set amount of skill points would not. If one RPP gets you X number of skill points that benefits a player who doesn't raise many skills by a high amount over the course of their PCs life as much as it does the player who had very high skill totals. A proposal that lets you recoup an amount of skills based on previous character skill totals makes RPP worth more to a specific style of play, which I think should be avoided in any RPP proposal.


I agree here. It would be better if it were a set amount per RPP spent, but I do think it should be a generous amount. I was always bothered by RPP roles like "Veteran Soldier of the Eastern Front" (or whatever) coming in and immediately being trounced by green soldiers, or a Master Wheelmaker (or whatever) who could only reliably make a wheel 60% of the time and wasn't skilled enough to teach.

I don't know how realistic the above examples are, it's been too many years since Ye Olde SoI. But the experienced RPP role archetypes usually seemed to be at a severe disadvantage to even new PCs who happened to join the org 2 weeks before they applied.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:08 pm

I agree here. It would be better if it were a set amount per RPP spent, but I do think it should be a generous amount. I was always bothered by RPP roles like "Veteran Soldier of the Eastern Front" (or whatever) coming in and immediately being trounced by green soldiers, or a Master Wheelmaker (or whatever) who could only reliably make a wheel 60% of the time and wasn't skilled enough to teach.

I don't know how realistic the above examples are, it's been too many years since Ye Olde SoI. But the experienced RPP role archetypes usually seemed to be at a severe disadvantage to even new PCs who happened to join the org 2 weeks before they applied.

"1RPP=15 boosts, 2RPP=25 boosts, 3RPP=40 boosts, 4RPP=60.5RPP=80" is how Atonement did it, and it wasn't bad. I think it came out to be 20/20/20/20 in boosts at the end, IIRC, for 5RPP, 4RPP was 15/15/10/10, 3RPP was 15/15/10, 2RPP 15/10, 1RPP 10/5. It worked out in making pretty solid PCs that came in incredibly competent, but not "better than what you could achieve by working for some time." PRPI was a little less generous, but never insane.

All that said, I don't know what people get now for RPP roles higher than 2, but SoI's current ones are...ungenerous(20 in boosts, +10 and +10 is the highest available role, granted to Dwarves, and orcs comparitively get +5/+5), and the suggested plan would blow all of those out of the water and then some. And like Brian says, it definitely profits people with PCs who have been around forever and/or are good at grinding more than it does anyone else.

I'd much prefer to just see role boosts reworked.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Songweaver » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:51 pm

I've mixed feelings. In short(ish): this sounds like an idea for a populous RPI with too many good ideas and too many good players, and the need to rotate through them all to maintain balance.

It doesn't sound like an idea for an RPI with a deficit of active players with good ideas and the energy to see them through, as you want those players constantly energizing the game with their next idea.

Additionally, because death can be almost random and quite sudden, spending RPP to create something only to have that something die tomorrow when your character dies could have a negative impact: I'd be more prone to wait for my RPP to "refill" and roll in with a concept that I was super excited about than to immediately roll in with a throw-away low RPP concept. In short: this could negatively impact high level player/leader activity when tragedy befalls.

TL;DR -- is SOI big enough for this? Does it have the problem that too many proactive players have too many good ideas all at once, and it's drowning the game? If not, then maybe this might be a good idea down the line.

ETA: Also agree with Kory's side point above. The role boosts for SOI are a little ungenerous. The dream is to grind your first few characters so that they are good at what they do, roleplay well, make a positive impact, and be rewarded by being able to skip the weeks of mindless grind on future characters.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:58 pm

Songweaver wrote:...death can be almost random and quite sudden, spending RPP to create something only to have that something die tomorrow when your character dies could have a negative impact...


We will now track your MAX RPP level, along with CURRENT RPP level. i.e. CURRENT / MAX (3/5).

Players may spend RPP immediately and will be able to request an RPP be returned to them at a rate of 1 per month, up to their MAX.

Given your use of the word 'refill,' I get the feeling you're aware...but. I think what you're discussing was a bigger problem when RPP didn't re-fill. I'm more likely to sit on something that doesn't re-fill. I can't imagine being any more upset that I blew my RPP on my long-lived-ish PC that dies a week later than I would be if I blew all my RPP on a Dwarf that died a week later. It's the same issue, just even less likely with an 'old' PC.

ETA: Even more of a safe investment with an older PC: people will go around carrying the items and such you left behind, and maybe mention "This was his! Arsehole, always hated him, but he did know how to shop."
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Songweaver » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:11 pm

I think what you're discussing was a bigger problem when RPP didn't re-fill.


True. I think my preferred design has always been that RPP shouldn't be currency, but more like tiers of trust that you achieve through your efforts.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby PhocsM » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:26 pm

After looking at the posts and suggestions I decided to make a list with a few (very few) ideas of my own and the ideas I liked in the thread. Bear in mind I have no idea about internal stats numbers so can't say what what those could be for flat bonuses, also these could be changed for boosting the roles described in the wiki.
Equally named items across more than one tier should be better/higher the more RPP spent and are not meant to get more than one.
All perks are for already IG PCs unless otherwise stated or chargen.

1 RPP
Open standard skill (2 max between this and the perk that opens rpp-required skills for 2 RPP)
Skill boost
Additional public room for clanhall (i.e. another shopfront)
Extra in-game message board
Extra skill points at chargen (flat boost to skill point pool)
Loan (No specific purpose i.e: Imports)

2 RPP
Open a rpp-required skill (see above)
Stat boost (not able to surpass a certain cap based on race)
Custom clan
Additional private key-less room for clanhall (i.e; Courtyard, Barracks)
Pet
Extra skill points at chargen (flat boost to skill point pool)
Higher quality standard item at chargen (max 1, this also counts for customised objects cap)
Loan (Stall)
Customised Object (2 max 1 of which has to be obtained at chargen. No weapons or armor, no stat modifications)

3 RPP
Extra skill points at chargen (flat boost to skill point pool)
Higher quality standard item at chargen (max 1)
Loan (Player-run clan)

4 RPP
Higher quality standard item at chargen (max 1)
Loan (Freeman Shop)

5 RPP
Loan (Fort)

Variable RPP
Specific roles in chargen
Custom Requests
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:54 pm

Songweaver wrote:I think my preferred design has always been that RPP shouldn't be currency, but more like tiers of trust that you achieve through your efforts.

This is -exactly- what MAX RPP is.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Songweaver wrote:I've mixed feelings. In short(ish): this sounds like an idea for a populous RPI with too many good ideas and too many good players, and the need to rotate through them all to maintain balance.

It doesn't sound like an idea for an RPI with a deficit of active players with good ideas and the energy to see them through, as you want those players constantly energizing the game with their next idea


I'm confused as hell by your statement, SW. Are you saying that dedicated players playing a game with a smaller playerbase don't deserve the same types of perks that a player on a popular game get?

If so, I'd say you're completely wrong and that our dedicated players deserve even more than players of more popular games.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Songweaver » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:32 pm

Nimrod wrote:
Songweaver wrote:I've mixed feelings. In short(ish): this sounds like an idea for a populous RPI with too many good ideas and too many good players, and the need to rotate through them all to maintain balance.

It doesn't sound like an idea for an RPI with a deficit of active players with good ideas and the energy to see them through, as you want those players constantly energizing the game with their next idea


I'm confused as hell by your statement, SW. Are you saying that dedicated players playing a game with a smaller playerbase don't deserve the same types of perks that a player on a popular game get?

If so, I'd say you're completely wrong and that our dedicated players deserve even more than players of more popular games.


Sorry for confusing you. I'm definitely not suggesting that anyone doesn't deserve opportunities. I couldn't feel more the opposite. So to be more clear:

This MIGHT be a good idea, IF: you have more proactive, leadership or big idea players than you have opportunities to offer them.

This MIGHT NOT be a good idea, IF: you need all of the proactive, leadership or big idea players that you can get.

I'm not suggesting which is right for SOI (why I voted "I dunno"), because I'm not sure what SOI's current needs are.

Nimrod wrote:
Songweaver wrote:I think my preferred design has always been that RPP shouldn't be currency, but more like tiers of trust that you achieve through your efforts.

This is -exactly- what MAX RPP is.


Yes. I guess what I'm suggesting is that my personal preference, for whatever it's worth, would to keep the idea of tiered/max RPP but get rid of the idea that RPP is currency that can be spent. It's always felt arbitrary for me, and any benefits (reducing drain on staff time/resources) can be managed in other ways.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Icristhus » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:27 pm

I think the essence of Songweaver's point is that too much player freedom can have a splintering effect on the playerbase from the few top-tier players each deciding to do their own, separate thing. His concern, I assume, is that this may not be ideal when we are still tiny.

A very extreme example would be the Harshlands setup, where there are countless clans and places to play, but they all tend to have only one or two PCs in a handful of the various clans.

ETA: Thus, it can be excellent for larger playerbases with many 'top tier' players who want to do new and interesting things, but if there are only a few such and they all go their separate ways, it can potentially cause dilution.

One solution to address that issue might be as easy as to encourage anyone that wants to create a new clan to consider taking on a needed role in an existing, similar clan first and to ask them to justify the OOC purpose of the group and what it brings to the game as well as the IC side of things.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:30 pm

RPP as currency is great. Ideally, RPP races start having cleanly-defined boosts(very small ones--+1 dex +1 wil +1 con for Dwarves, for example, at 3RPP), and 0RPP races can buy boosts to almost equal those(no more than 2, as it says).

The clan stuff is all about locked doors, and dividing the Pbase, and I dislike that...but I think Jaunt's more opposed overall than to that specific. I'd delete the clan-related Stuff, or make it way smaller rooms with no locked doors(or locked doors but no safequit rooms), but...

Overall, I'm okay with it.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Songweaver » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:06 pm

I think the essence of Songweaver's point is that too much player freedom can have a splintering effect on the playerbase from the few top-tier players each deciding to do their own, separate thing. His concern, I assume, is that this may not be ideal when we are still tiny.


Sort of what I'm getting at.

If you don't have a lot of movers-and-shakers, and they have to wait for their RPP to "refill" between big idea characters, that means less big idea characters (or your generally more proactive leaders) in the game at any one time. If they don't have to refill their RPP, because rolling big ideas is based 100% on trust (RPP as tiers, not currency), then that's less of an issue.

So, if you need to limit how much moving and shaking is happening at once, this might be one way to go about it. But if you need all of the moving and shaking that you can get to energize your playerbase and game, then you want those players ALWAYS (or often, at least) rolling big idea characters.

Ask yourself this ... if you could just not play the game for two months to refill your RPP, would you rather do that and get to skip grinding skill levels and play a cool role, or would you jump right into a low RPP role? Answers will vary, but I suspect that a good portion of players might just take a break until their RPP refilled.

I hope that makes sense! Again, I don't think it's a bad idea. I think there may be a better idea, just a step further than this one.

RPP as currency is great. Ideally, RPP races start having cleanly-defined boosts(very small ones--+1 dex +1 wil +1 con for Dwarves, for example, at 3RPP), and 0RPP races can buy boosts to almost equal those(no more than 2, as it says).

The clan stuff is all about locked doors, and dividing the Pbase, and I dislike that...but I think Jaunt's more opposed overall than to that specific. I'd delete the clan-related Stuff, or make it way smaller rooms with no locked doors(or locked doors but no safequit rooms), but...

Overall, I'm okay with it.


I think RPP races and boosts can be a trust thing, without needing a cost. It's the cost that's arbitrary (and may actually have that negative impact on activity for high end players that I mentioned above). I think the boosts are key -- mindless grinding skill levels in the RPI+ Engine is ancient design at this point, and has always sort of been an obstacle to good storytelling and roleplay. The skill boosts encourage lower RPP players to roleplay better, because being able to save future characters grinding time is the absolute best incentive an RPI can offer for good behavior.

As far as clan-stuff goes, I'm mostly in agreement there too. While the setting of SOI sort of requires some closed doors, the game can bring players together frequently by designing reasons for them to come together and work together (trade, shared crafting space, automated events, a more dynamic wilderness threat, etc).

I think we're getting into a different subject now, but the only real way to make shared space incentives work is to give all groups mechanically equal access to tools and opportunities to sell/buy/etc. The biggest closed door in SOI's design has always been restricted licenses, Fellowships, promoting one clan and suppressing another.

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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:31 am

Vorondil came up with an interesting idea. Rather than allowing players to purchase back a percentage of their skill points at character generation, we would allow a X3 modifier to skill purchases as long as you're in the outfitting area.

This means as long as you're in the outfitting area, or prior to commencing, you can request skill boosts and buy them at a rate of 30 per RPP.

After you're out of chargen the cost is 10 per RPP.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Mavinero » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:50 am

Nimrod wrote:Vorondil came up with an interesting idea. Rather than allowing players to purchase back a percentage of their skill points at character generation, we would allow a X3 modifier to skill purchases as long as you're in the outfitting area.

This means as long as you're in the outfitting area, or prior to commencing, you can request skill boosts and buy them at a rate of 30 per RPP.

After you're out of chargen the cost is 10 per RPP.


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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Faroukel » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:04 am

I think there's a lot of merit to Vorondil's idea.

One area that could use some clarification in discussion.

Lets say you have 4 rpp out of a max of 4 rpp.

You pick a 3 rpp race for your new pc. Does that mean you now have 1 rpp for a role, or character adjustments like a skill boost?

Or is it, you pick a 3 rpp race, can pick up to a 4 rpp role, but no skill boosts?

Or is it, some variation above.

I think it'd also be neat to have like a basic rpp gear purchase.

1 rpp basic leather/weapon/shield or bow
2 rpp metal helm/decent leather/weapon/shield or bow
3 rpp metal helm/low quality metal or high quality leather/weapon or bow

Ultimately, I think it'd be neat to have sort of a customizable role and remove the coded roles in favour of this style of system.

If any of this was previously mentioned, forgive my repetition.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby PhocsM » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:44 am

I think it'd also be neat to have like a basic rpp gear purchase.

1 rpp basic leather/weapon/shield or bow
2 rpp metal helm/decent leather/weapon/shield or bow
3 rpp metal helm/low quality metal or high quality leather/weapon or bow


I'd really like this, some roles that would benefit from having some better gear.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:41 am

Faroukel wrote:You pick a 3 rpp race for your new pc. Does that mean you now have 1 rpp for a role, or character adjustments like a skill boost?

This is up in the air at the moment. I've been pondering how to handle the 'race cost'. In the past, we've not charged for picking a race, so I'm wondering if we need to continue that tradition and only require you to have them.

Then the question is, if we only require you to have that many rpp, is it your MAX or your current LEVEL of unspent RPP?

I'm open to discussion on that.

Faroukel wrote:Or is it, you pick a 3 rpp race, can pick up to a 4 rpp role, but no skill boosts?


Once again... I'm pondering the role costs. Feel free to discuss and give your advice.

Faroukel wrote:I think it'd also be neat to have like a basic rpp gear purchase.

1 rpp basic leather/weapon/shield or bow
2 rpp metal helm/decent leather/weapon/shield or bow
3 rpp metal helm/low quality metal or high quality leather/weapon or bow

Ultimately, I think it'd be neat to have sort of a customizable role and remove the coded roles in favour of this style of system.

If any of this was previously mentioned, forgive my repetition.

I like this idea.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:54 am

I'm leaning towards making races and roles simply REQUIRE the RPP and it doesn't matter if you've spent them or not. i.e. if I have 4 rpp and I've spent two on skill boosts, then die, I can still roll a 4 RPP race AND a 4 RPP role, but won't get any boosts. I can, however, spend 2 RPP on boosts if I like, because I still have those left to spend.

Races and Roles Require RPP. Boosts, items and mobs cost RPP.

That seems simple enough, doesn't it?
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Faroukel » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:05 am

I like it.

Gimme back my rpps!!

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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:21 am

Seconded!
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Brian » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:20 pm

Nimrod wrote:I'm leaning towards making races and roles simply REQUIRE the RPP and it doesn't matter if you've spent them or not. i.e. if I have 4 rpp and I've spent two on skill boosts, then die, I can still roll a 4 RPP race AND a 4 RPP role, but won't get any boosts. I can, however, spend 2 RPP on boosts if I like, because I still have those left to spend.

Races and Roles Require RPP. Boosts, items and mobs cost RPP.

That seems simple enough, doesn't it?


What did you think of the idea earlier in the thread about aligning stat boosts for special races to RPP, but not allowing RPP to be used to purchase further boosts on RPP races? So, for example, Dwarves require 3RPP, so they get +3 stat points, for instance, +1 dex, +1 con, +1 wil. Or a 4 RPP elf gets +1 agi, +1 dex, +1 con +1 int (these are just my suggestions). However, they can't buy any further boosts, whereas common humans can, bringing things somewhat closer to parity.

Faroukel wrote:1 rpp basic leather/weapon/shield or bow
2 rpp metal helm/decent leather/weapon/shield or bow
3 rpp metal helm/low quality metal or high quality leather/weapon or bow


Like this as an option for people who roll common humans without taking a role that comes with gear.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:04 pm

Brian wrote:
What did you think of the idea earlier in the thread about aligning stat boosts for special races to RPP, but not allowing RPP to be used to purchase further boosts on RPP races? So, for example, Dwarves require 3RPP, so they get +3 stat points, for instance, +1 dex, +1 con, +1 wil. Or a 4 RPP elf gets +1 agi, +1 dex, +1 con +1 int (these are just my suggestions). However, they can't buy any further boosts, whereas common humans can, bringing things somewhat closer to parity.


Disagree somewhat here. While I think stat boosts should be available for purchase, those who earn the RPP to make say, an Elf, or an Olog-Hai(Who knows?) or a Spider, or Ent, or Dwarf, or what have you..

While code shouldn't be the first thing people look for, some races are simply going to be beyond others on an individual level.

While there are exceptional orcs, by and large they were cut down in as if by force-multiplier by races like the Elves. In larger numbers of course, the pointy-eared fops were overwhelmed. But on a one on one level? An Elf will by by and large superior in many ways to an Orc, or a Wainrider. Or even to a human period.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:05 pm

Brian wrote:What did you think of the idea earlier in the thread about aligning stat boosts for special races to RPP, but not allowing RPP to be used to purchase further boosts on RPP races? So, for example, Dwarves require 3RPP, so they get +3 stat points, for instance, +1 dex, +1 con, +1 wil. Or a 4 RPP elf gets +1 agi, +1 dex, +1 con +1 int (these are just my suggestions). However, they can't buy any further boosts, whereas common humans can, bringing things somewhat closer to parity.


I have only considered it in passing. RPP restricted races have stat boosts already, I'm not sure what they are exactly at the moment. But at first blush I'd say we'd want to allow them to be able to purchase a stat boost if they wished as well.

i.e. no matter what race you get, the max stat boost you can get is 2.
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