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RPP Proposal

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Is this a good idea?

Yes
23
79%
I'm not sure
4
14%
No
2
7%
 
Total votes : 29

Re: RPP Proposal

Postby krelm » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:22 pm

I've always been a fan of races requiring RPP, as opposed to costing.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby tehkory » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:37 pm

Nimrod wrote:I have only considered it in passing. RPP restricted races have stat boosts already, I'm not sure what they are exactly at the moment.


Probably should have a clear plan for RPP races/their boosts before any plan for further RPP boosts is even on the table.

But at first blush I'd say we'd want to allow them to be able to purchase a stat boost if they wished as well.

i.e. no matter what race you get, the max stat boost you can get is 2.

Honestly, much of the balance decisions are going to be somewhat null until the imbalance between bludgeon vs. other weapons is filled out, but the bigger the imbalances are, the larger the gap between a well-optimized, stat-boosted using bludgeon PC vs. a poorly-built, non-boosted, non-bludgeon using PC grows, and making the difference 4-6 stat points or more is going to be rather big.

Disagree somewhat here. While I think stat boosts should be available for purchase, those who earn the RPP to make say, an Elf, or an Olog-Hai(Who knows?) or a Spider, or Ent, or Dwarf, or what have you..

You cut off, so I'm not sure how you disagree, but...humans/non-boosted people getting a maximum of +2 while everybody else has that is parity...everyone else having that or higher is not, and still means certain races are just better.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Brian » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:18 pm

tehkory wrote:Probably should have a clear plan for RPP races/their boosts before any plan for further RPP boosts is even on the table.


Agree with this one. Should definitely have it all plotted out in advance so that anything stat related is known before roll out, as stat related stuff is one of the things that seems to get players the most riled if it is unbalanced. As it stands now by my opinion (and Kory agrees) Dwarves stat boosts don't make sense. They get +str +con, -dex -wil. Thematically that doesn't fit. They were exceptional craftsmen so minus dexterity, wut? Also, Dwarves weren't seduced by rings of power because of their inherent willpower and resistance to domination, so -wil, wut? Does not compute. Really, for most RPP races I don't see it making sense that they would have any -ves to stats, unless we were talking about trolls with maybe a -int or certain orcish races having a -wil.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:40 pm

tehkory wrote:Probably should have a clear plan for RPP races/their boosts before any plan for further RPP boosts is even on the table.

The plan is to define exactly how many stat points each race gets as a starter, and then allow for 2 boosts. i.e. humans start with 92 and through boosts would max out at 94.

Dwarves start at 94, max out at 96

etc...
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:43 pm

Brian wrote: They get +str +con, -dex -wil. Thematically that doesn't fit. They were exceptional craftsmen so minus dexterity, wut? Also, Dwarves weren't seduced by rings of power because of their inherent willpower and resistance to domination, so -wil, wut? Does not compute. Really, for most RPP races I don't see it making sense that they would have any -ves to stats, unless we were talking about trolls with maybe a -int or certain orcish races having a -wil.


I agree... wut?! I'm not sure why we originally settled on the +1, +1, -1, -1 model. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I'll run through the boosts we have right now and post for further debate.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:56 pm

Playable races and stat boosts currently:

Human (0 RPP)
Orc (0 RPP)
Easterling (0 RPP)
Warg (3 RPP)
Dwarf (3 RPP) +1 STR, +1 CON, -1 DEX, -1 WIL
Silvan Elf (6 RPP) +1 CON, +1 DEX, +1 AGI, +1 AUR
Dunadan (6 RPP)
Beorning (1 RPP)
Dorwinion (2RPP)
Rohirrim (3 RPP)
Gondorian (3 RPP)
Daleman (3 RPP)
Breeman (2 RPP)
Hobbit (6 RPP)

If no stat boosts are listed, there are none given for that race currently.

Perhaps we should make adjustments to rpp requirments and boosts to make it as simple as 1 boost for 1 RPP in cost for each race.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Icarus » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:21 pm

Considering how powerful even single point stat boosts can be, preference would be toward skill boosts instead.

(IMO)
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Brian » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:42 pm

I agree that the 1 boost per 1 RPP is a good model; simple and effective. The only thing I can see that would necessitate higher RPP costs is that you want to preserve rarity of certain races. However, I believe this can be done just as effectively by admin oversight of applications. Any application for a hobbit, for instance, will probably have to be excellent with excellent reasons for why that character will be in the game and what their purpose is in the area of play. I think any player that was wanting to apply for a hobbit or what have you would probably reach out to staff first. Furthermore, if you had a hobbit IG and didn't think that it would work at the moment to have more, it would be simple enough to say so.

A thing I would say too is that if you have races with boosts on the one side, you kind of need to have something to offer on the other side as well. There's a bit of a lack on the orc side of things for anything comparable to a dwarf/elf.

I like that all of the various human races are there, but what determines their RPP cost? Is it to try and preserve rarity, is it that it's expected that roleplaying a Gondorian human will be significantly more difficult than a Rhovanion human?

If RPP costs do become directly linked to stat boosts I would advocate that no humans (save Dunedain) should cost more than 1 RPP. I can't see the difference between a common Gondorian human and a Rhovanion human being that striking.

Below is my proposed cost list, tying RPP directly to stat boosts and leaving questions of numbers, player ability to portray the race, etc. to application vetting, not to RPP cost. When assigning bonuses I'm looking thematically, but also trying to not overload anything with boosts that relate directly to combat, so a mixture between the most important combat stats (AGI, STR, CON) and those that relate more to crafting/mental pursuits (DEX, INT, WIL, PRE)

Human (0 RPP)

Orc (0 RPP)

Easterling (0 RPP)

Warg (3 RPP) +1 STR, +1 CON, INFRAVISION:
Wargs can't wear armor nor wield weapons, so boosts to 2 very combat relative stats in STR and CON to make them a little tougher, Infravision is a perk they currently have and fills out the 3rd RPP related boost.

Dwarf (3 RPP) +1 CON, +1 DEX, +1 WIL:
Hardy, great craftsmen, indomitable wills

Silvan Elf (4 RPP) +1 CON, +1 AGI, +1 DEX, +1 INT:
Elves are naturally more resistant to physical hurts (CON), have grace of movement and command of their bodies (AGI), are skilled in craft and the making of things (DEX). I would change AUR from INT as I don't feel that the Silvan elves would be particularly inspiring in their AUR: a Dunedain in many ways is more ennobled spiritually than the common folk of the Silvan realm. INT however reflects that they have an immortal lifespan and the ability to continually learn throughout it [so higher skill pool].

Dunadan (4 RPP) +1 AGI, +1 DEX, +1 WIL, +1 AUR:
More gifted in their physical form/movement and craft than common men [AGI and DEX], with ennobled spirits and greater ability to resist evil [AUR and WIL].

Beorning (1 RPP) +1 CON:
Hardy bear men (CON)!

Dorwinion (1 RPP) +1 INT:
From what I'm reading of the documentation they have a fairly advanced mercantile culture that seems to promote skills of diplomacy, bargaining and commerce, which I feel relates closest to INT.

Rohirrim (2 RPP) +1 AGI, +1 WIL
The Rohirrim were a naturally warlike folk and had bodies gifted to the pursuit of the arts of war and horsemanship (AGI). They were a proud and fierce people, prideful and not easily cowed or intimidated (WIL).

Gondorian (2 RPP) +1 DEX, +1 INT:
Most technologically advanced and learned culture of man left in Middle Earth, so +1 DEX for the craftiness and +1 INT for the fact that your average Gondorian almost certainly has a better education than any other mannish culture.

Daleman (1 RPP) +1 DEX:
Close in friendship with the Dwarves, Dale was reknowned for its intricate and fantastical toys and other crafts, hence a bonus to DEX for that craftiness.

Breeman (1 RPP) +1 WIL
The people of Bree pretty much live upon the distant fringe of civilization (if it can even be called that) and this leads them to be resolute and hardy of spirit.

Hobbit (3 RPP) +1 AGI, +1 DEX, +1 WIL
Basically the quietest, best sneakers in middle-earth (AGI), with clever craft skills and nimble fingers (DEX) and a remarkable mental fortitude and toughness of spirit when put to the test (WIL).

That's what's currently there. I'm not sure what you'd put up for the orc side but basically I think you'd need something at each of the 1, 2, 3, and 4 RPP slots at least.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Brian » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:44 pm

I would also add as a caveat that if RPP races are going to be able to still purchase extra stat points that they not be allowed to use those stat points to boost anything to the Superhuman level, just like (I believe?) the upgrade command doesn't allow you to put something to Superhuman. If it happens in chargen, well, I guess you got very lucky, but that should be the only time. I'm told that Superhuman STR, in particular, is especially broken as it allows certain weapon interactions that are pretty much broken (dual wielding 1 heavy and 1 medium sized weapon I believe?)
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Tykanis » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:19 am

I personally find myself agreeing almost wholeheartedly with Brian's layout.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:32 pm

Brian's post fits in exactly with what I'm looking for. Thanks.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Patty » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:04 am

The idea that multiple entities could be carrying out their own business in the Mirk, Mountain...or anywhere else is very exciting...especially if each had a stronghold.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby EltanimRas » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:10 am

Nimrod wrote:2 RPP
1 Point Stat Boost (2 max)

Are we avoiding +1/-1 as an option because of the tendency for it to lead to so-called 'cookie-cutter' builds?
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Tykanis » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:35 am

I doubt it will combat the cookie cutter builds much but for those that don't or don't to the same extent it might help a bit.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Nimrod » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:48 pm

EltanimRas wrote:
Nimrod wrote:2 RPP
1 Point Stat Boost (2 max)

Are we avoiding +1/-1 as an option because of the tendency for it to lead to so-called 'cookie-cutter' builds?


You still have control of this with the UPGRADE command.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby EltanimRas » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:28 am

Nimrod wrote:You still have control of this with the UPGRADE command.

Huh, and looks like I was the last one to update the helpfile, too. Totally forgot about it.

Thanks for the reminder!
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby kivikk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:47 pm

Is this live yet?
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Freon » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:08 am

I fully agree with Brian's posts, they are well thought out and make a lot of sense to differentiate the races.

Let me add:

For Orcs

Notes:
The Silmarillion contains a suggestion that Orcs are descended from East Elves captured by Melkor, their minds and bodies distorted and corrupted.

Maybe the same can be done for the orc race, creating different kinds of orc breeds as would probably be done in breeding pits.

I am going off of this reference mostly. There is a precedent to having multiple orc breeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

Generally the term Orc and Goblin are interchangeable in Tolkien's work, but we can use goblins to define a race of orc that are smaller and inclined to agility.

Tolerance to sunlight: Is a big thing among the breeds, though most breeds of orc flag under the sun.

Uruk and Uruk-hai were reserved for the Uruks themselves, a special breed or breeds of Orc; they called smaller, weaker Orcs snaga, "slave". The Grey Elves also referred to the Orcs as a whole as the Glamhoth, "noisy horde". The word "goblin" is used to represent the original Hobbit Orc. In The History of Middle-earth Tolkien writes about an Orc captain named Boldog but later specifies that Boldog may have been either a term or a title for another special kind of Orc instead of a personal name.

Orcs served Morgoth in Angband and Sauron in Mordor. By the time of the War of the Ring, some served Saruman in Isengard. However, some Orcs seem to have worked independently. Before and during the time of The Hobbit, some Orcs had Mount Gundabad as their capital, the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were apparently ruled by one "Great Goblin", the former Dwarf-realm of Moria was held by orcs under one Azog and then his son Bolg, and one Golfimbul had led the orcs of Mount Gram in a foray into the Shire.

I would imagine that the necromancer (Sauron) in Dol Guldur would be up to no good and orc breeding may be one of the no-good things he's doing apart from generally attracting orcs and other foul beasties to the area.

So maybe we can come up with breeds and strains such as:
Wild Orcs and Goblins, which would represent independent orc tribes for exmple. Fighting orcs/goblins, half-orcs, uruk-hai, and boldog, giving the evil side enough variety and perhaps some stat-equivalents to more powerful races.

Wild Orc (0 RPP): +1 STR, -1 WIL, SUNLIGHT PENALTY
These are your everyday run of the mill wild orcs that breed freely in the mountains hither and yon. The reasoning for their stats is in the intent of their creation as well as in how their culture favors the strong.

Wild Goblin (0 RPP): +1 AGI, -1 CON, SUNLIGHT PENALTY
Similar to the common Orc, the origin of the goblin is that they are a small breed meant to be fast-moving scouts.

Fighting Orc (1 RPP): +1 STR, SUNLIGHT PENALTY
Orcs bred specifically for fighting

Fighting Goblin (1 RPP): +1 AGI, SUNLIGHT PENALTY
Similar to the fighting orc, bred more for agility and dexterity.

Uruk-hai (2 RPP): +1 STR, +1 CON, 1/2 SUNLIGHT PENALTY
Pinnacle of orc breeding, these orcs were described in the LOTR Trilogy but I don't think we can limit them there for their first appearance. These could be an earlier, beta breed version that Sauron has been testing out.

Warg (3 RPP): +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 AGI, +1 DEX, -2 WIL, -2 INT (net stat gain is 3) SKILL RESTRICTED
The stats and skill restrictions would be a good way to represent their more animalistic nature and while they are still intelligent, the penalties to int and will would represent their inclination to acting instinctively instead of with reason. Racial bonuses to certain skills (Track, Hunt, Forage) may be necessary as well to compensate for the lack of access to other skills (read, write, craft skills, etc.)

Boldog (4 RPP) +2 STR, +1 CON, +1 AGI, no sunlight penalty
The special kind of orc as mentioned above. These would likely be good leaders. These would be, obviously rare, but powerful enough to match the 4 rpp races on the other side of the sphere.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Freon » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:08 am

Suggestion:
As a general rule, it would make playing RPP races more rewarding if they came with net boosts equivalent to the amount of rpp needed to play that role.

For example:

an wild orc would need 0 rpp but has +1 str - 1 wil = net gain of 0

a fighting orc would need 1 rpp and comes with + 1 str = net gain of 1

a silvan Elf (4 RPP) gets +1 CON, +1 AGI, +1 DEX, +1 INT= net gain of 4

a warg (3 rpp) gets +1 STR, +1 CON, INFRAVISION: = net gain of 3
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Zargen » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:28 pm

No to sunlight penalty without infravision. And neither of those are gonna happen I think. Infravision was removed and theres no daylight penalty for playability reasons
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby MackDazzler » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:46 pm

Nimrod wrote:Playable races and stat boosts currently:

Human (0 RPP)
Orc (0 RPP)
Easterling (0 RPP)
Warg (3 RPP)
Dwarf (3 RPP) +1 STR, +1 CON, -1 DEX, -1 WIL
Silvan Elf (6 RPP) +1 CON, +1 DEX, +1 AGI, +1 AUR
Dunadan (6 RPP)
Beorning (1 RPP)
Dorwinion (2RPP)
Rohirrim (3 RPP)
Gondorian (3 RPP)
Daleman (3 RPP)
Breeman (2 RPP)
Hobbit (6 RPP)

If no stat boosts are listed, there are none given for that race currently.

Perhaps we should make adjustments to rpp requirments and boosts to make it as simple as 1 boost for 1 RPP in cost for each race.


Is this going to be adjusted any time soon? It just seems strange that there aren't any races available between 3 and 5 RPP, especially since Dunadan has been raised from 5 RPP to 6.

I also note there are 5RPP Noble/Knight roles available in Chargen that would likely require the Dunadan race.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Vorondil » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:48 pm

I looked through my electronic and printed resources regarding the Knights of Dol Amroth and there is no mention of their racial composition. It is not unfeasible that regular Gondorian Men of sufficient skill and status were knighted. Remember that these are military appointments, not peerage.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Faroukel » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:38 pm

A minute on the internet and here you go.


The Faithful from Númenor began colonising the coast near Dol Amroth at the end of the Second Age shortly before Númenor was destroyed, and this area was noted for the number of men of Númenórean blood, and for the number who still spoke the Elvish tongue.

Prince Imrahil dwelt "in the great fief of Belfalas ... in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his retainers also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes".

And last and proudest, [came] Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth..., with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses; and behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired, singing as they came.

So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor.... Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate...; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail. For he and his knights still held themselves like lords in whom the race of Númenor ran true. Men that saw them whispered saying: 'Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago.' And then one would sing amid the gloom some staves of the Lay of Nimrodel, or other songs of the Vale of Anduin out of vanished years.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Melkor » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:27 am

Character wipe then do away with rpp entirely. Every character, especially admin ones, begin with nothing.
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Re: RPP Proposal

Postby Bones » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:24 am

Melkor wrote:Character wipe then do away with rpp entirely. Every character, especially admin ones, begin with nothing.

Then how would we play as anything other than goblins and humans?
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