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Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Emilio » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:23 am

If I played a warg, I would always eat my rider. It's the only way to bring food with me.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Matt » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:51 pm

*sigh* Second time typing this my laptop crashed right when I finished the first one.

I think this is a wonderful idea. It'd add a lot to the orc sphere by having playable wargs. Sentient wargs aren't exactly a new idea for SOI, I've seen them RP'd in Moria and later. Anyone remember Larzdeesh of Moria, the alpha warg? It'd bring a different dynamic to the orc sphere, because the warg isn't necessarily 100% on the side of any orc. Loose allies would be the best way to describe it or play it in my opinion. It'd add another threat to humans as well. You can feel pretty damn safe wandering the woods alone as a human during the day because of the whole orcs hate the day thing. You'd be a little more hesitant to wander out far alone with PC wargs being around.

What skills could wargs take? Brawling would be their combat(or a warg combat skill), hide, sneak, and hunting. A warg specific craft-set could be warg raising, the only way for orc PCs to get mounts. You could raise your own warg pack for your own purposes or allow your mutt offspring to be ridden by orcs. There'd need to be a coded limit on how many followers or possible. You don't want a warg PC to raise 100 wargs and horde them until it's time to take over the game. Though raising only one should be a lengthy and difficult process.

Wargs would definitely have to be a high RPP race as the PC versions would represent the alpha's of the race. You'd need some experienced orc sphere players to take the race. Their stats would also have to be kind ridiculous with natural armor/weapons to offset the whole not having armor or weapons thing.

I think the best way to introduce them as a race would be for a single player to have the first one and work with the orc-side admins beforehand to really hash out what wargs should be and how they need to fit into the game world. The first couple PCs will be setting the precedent for future wargs. I personally think it could add a lot to the game roleplay wise. And hey... good guys get elves and dwarves let us baddies get something awesome too!
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Manarath » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:42 pm

A warg specific craft-set could be warg raising, the only way for orc PCs to get mounts. You could raise your own warg pack for your own purposes or allow your mutt offspring to be ridden by orcs. There'd need to be a coded limit on how many followers or possible. You don't want a warg PC to raise 100 wargs and horde them until it's time to take over the game. Though raising only one should be a lengthy and difficult process.


Hmmmm....Now that would be an interesting way to tie the two sphere's together. A PC Warg could barter with orc PC's for services and goods for their raised warg subordinates. I can easily see a alpha warg giving away the services of its lessers to the orcs, if it means getting itself some sort of armor to give it an edge. Since PC wargs will have some.....interesting challenges due to a lack of hands, this sort of bartering mechanic would serve to tie the two together much better, if they do become two separate sphere's.

However this makes me wonder, how would the mechanics of wargs work in terms of commands? Unlike the other races, carrying any sort of inventory in terms of RP is a little hard when they have no hands. And how would they feed themselves? You need to skin corpses to provide food in the old system, though it would be too much of a hassle to change that sort of code just for them. It makes me imagine a pair of PC wargs managing to take down a PC human who strayed too far, then trying to figure how to loot their victim, and then what to do with it for that matter.

Personally while I love the idea of PC wargs in all ways, it might be a good idea to keep the orc and warg sphere as one whole, or at least symbiotic with each other, as the baddies tend to get low numbers anyway, and dividing them up, even if it takes RPP to be a warg, problematic in the long run.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Matt » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:38 pm

Wargs and orcs would be the same 'sphere'. How their culture works should probably be sorted IG.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Octavius » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:22 am

I'm disturbed by the idea of "warg armor." Is that something that would be considered canonical? Discuss.

My impression of warg PCs would be a roleplay heavy, skill-reliant (vice equipment-reliant) character.

I could imagine them having natural armor (thick hide) equivalent to basic armor (gambesons and leathers), and natural weapons (bite and claw) at the ordinary level. This is an advantage over a starting character, but their disadvantage is that it doesn't upgrade and they must rely on superior skill.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Letters » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:29 am

If wargs are playable (I don't think that they should be, but that's neither here nor there, especially since I can't imagine I'll ever play in the orc sphere), is there really a need to ensure that all things are balanced and every player's character able to compete on the same level where combat code is concerned? There shouldn't be anything wrong with setting up a PC warg as any NPC is set, surely?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Matt » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:53 pm

Letters wrote:If wargs are playable (I don't think that they should be, but that's neither here nor there, especially since I can't imagine I'll ever play in the orc sphere), is there really a need to ensure that all things are balanced and every player's character able to compete on the same level where combat code is concerned? There shouldn't be anything wrong with setting up a PC warg as any NPC is set, surely?


Yes. Especially so when it comes to wargs. Usual players will be able to throw on all types of armor and use all types of weapons, craft, a lot of things player wargs can't do. Upping your brawling skill isn't enough to really make a PC viable. Wargs, in my opinion, should be at least 2 RPP. Probably more like 3. Warg PCs should be rare because they'll be expensive to play RPP wise and won't have many options beyond 4-6 skills. They'll represent the Alpha's and Omega's of wargs, not the run of the mill warg wandering the woods. What combat PC couldn't take a regular warg out 1v1 in old SOI without issue? There's no reason -not- to balance it.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Letters » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:41 pm

You mustn't have encountered the North Anorien wargs.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Tepes » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:13 pm

I am all for giving wargs a playing chance.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Throttle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:48 am

Just makes almost as little sense to me as playable horses.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Zargen » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:35 am

I'm against the idea. That being said I think it wouldn't hurt just to have the option open for players who desperately feel like being a warg would be cool. If they're willing to shell out 3 rpp for it, more power to them. Just dont ask for a refund when you get tired of it after a couple weeks. I figure it's their fault as long as they know they wont be catered to any more than any other race. No special treatment eh?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:52 am

If the bad guys get to play an animal, will the good guys get an animal they can play as well?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Zargen » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:14 am

Cfelch can be a thrush
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Tepes » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:38 pm

Wargs aren't animals.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Octavius » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:46 pm

Zargen wrote:Cfelch can be a thrush


The corresponding animal of advanced intelligence on the side of good would be Giant Eagles.

:roll:
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:53 pm

I believe I can fly!
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Tepes » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:14 pm

"In the books, Wargs are described as being intelligent, malevolent wolf-like creatures."

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Wargs

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Warg

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wargs.html
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Manarath » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:18 pm

I don't see any real issue with wargs being playable. They are a big part of the lore, especially for the mountain orcs aka goblins. And its not like they would be anything nearly as bad as the ologs were from the old Sol. Those things could bare hand a warg without armor, and lets not talk about with some, plus something to stab or smash with.

Since it seems the wargs would not be their own little thing, it just means that it will not detract from the orc sphere if someone decides so play as them, as its not taking anything from the orcs in terms of players.

I remember seeing a few warg NPCs back in moria, and they were among the most memorable characters I can think of back then. Wargs are intelligent, can speak, and already have close ties with the orcs. Its not like we are discussing having the mirkwood spiders as PCs(Though on a personal level I would not shirk at the chance to play one.)


Anywho I think warg PC's could add something neat to the sphere, but the question comes down to how to handle them. We could go with Matt's suggestion of having PC wargs be the leaders among their kind, upping stats and their RPP cost and giving them the ability to create NPC wargs for the orcs through some sort of skillset. Or, make them like the basic wargs in all ways and lower the RPP cost by a fraction. Regardless I doubt it would be wise to let PC wargs be mountable, the first example especially. Not only do I have a hard time viewing the higher ranked wargs allowing to be ridden by your average orc, but I can only imagine the havoc such a duo could accomplish to the humans in terms of combat mechanics. One orc PC with a specialty in bow, and a warg PC could strafe all day long if the two were quick at typing.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Tepes » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:58 pm

Mountable PC Wargs would be odd, but if it is allowed, it should be like any other horse/NPC warg from SoI. The rider wouldn't be allowed to do much.

But we'll see what happens!
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby MrDvAnt » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:19 pm

Don't characters mount each other enough as it is?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Matt » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:22 pm

Tepes wrote:Mountable PC Wargs would be odd, but if it is allowed, it should be like any other horse/NPC warg from SoI. The rider wouldn't be allowed to do much.

But we'll see what happens!


I think that'd be an interesting part of having a warg as a PC. Does the warg allow an orc to ride them? Who's in charge? Yea, codedly, the warg would be... but do they listen to their rider? Who deserves to ride the alpha and why?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Tepes » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:26 pm

Exactly. I think it'd come down to very good reasons. If the Orc beat down the Warg in combat. Respect. Emergencies declared by such-and-such leader of doom.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Throttle » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:56 pm

Tepes wrote:"In the books, Wargs are described as being intelligent, malevolent wolf-like creatures."


"Intelligent" doesn't necessarily mean fully conscious and articulate. Dolphins are commonly described as intelligent and have their own distinctive language. There's nothing whatsoever in the literature to suggest that wargs are anything other than wolves that orcs ride. Even the bit about Gandalf understanding their language is highly ambiguous as he's a divine wizard and is also seen speaking with various normal animals. In no way does it mean with any certainty that they'd have a spoken language comparable to that of any people. Wargs are never depicted doing anything other than behaving like wolves and being ridden by orcs.

I'd say that there is literally no basis whatosever for them being anything other than slightly smarter wolves that the orcs have adopted as mounts, and that anything being used to justify them as a playable race is based on a tiny selection of hugely ambiguous and intentionally misinterpreted quotes. I would regard speaking, sentient wargs as wildly ridiculous and completely at odds with the setting. On top of this, with the strong likelihood that the orc sphere is going to be strained for population, devoting several players to glorified pets seems like a terrible decision.

Even if there were canonical justifications for a warg race, I wouldn't trust most players to actually roleplay them with any kind of decency, myself included, for the same reason that people shouldn't play ents or giant eagles. I'm a little surprised that this is even being seriously discussed.
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Hawkwind » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:44 am

Emilio wrote:If I played a warg, I would always eat my rider. It's the only way to bring food with me.


The Hobbit explains that they follow a leader or chieftain, speaking their own language (which Gandalf understood), and sometimes joining with Goblins (Orcs) on their raids. To their mutual benefit, Wargs would allow Orcs (who sometimes rode on wolves like men do on horses) to use them as mounts during raids on villages lying near the mountains.

I know you are joking Emilio, I've roleplayed with you in the past and you were great.

Would this be something to be concerned with, unless the price for playing was set so steeply would it prevent the lolpk? I am aware it is a poor argument but merely some food for thought in the manner that with so limited options of roleplay the malicious will take precedent over the cunning aspects. Many can play vicious, but few can play cunning. Even with a human PC let along with a mind foreign to all of Middle-Earth.

One thing we all would struggle to understand with wargs would be the concept of a pack mentality, the Alpha and the omega. If somebody was to horrifically injure/hurt or otherwise degrade your warg PC, you as a player would be stricken with grief or revenge at said PC. Yes, we might get crude basics of killing the leader at his moment of weakness, but would the established beta wolf try or would he not for fear of 'revenge PK'. A warg pack having its leader killed by one, then not having the one kill it take the reigns? Held together by mutual need rather than any bonds of brotherhood, friendship. It would be difficult to roleplay with people you are instinctively meant not to care about, while at the same time protecting.

Would the whole warg experience be twisted so far away from the source material in the name of playability, 'realism' and character development that in the end will we end up with generic evil wolves rather than the source of the Nile Wargs of which they all came?
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Re: Playable Wargs - Opinions/Thoughts

Postby Emilio » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:02 pm

Of course, I'm joking. I would never eat a stinky orc. I'll wait till he bathes first. ;)
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