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No Power System

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Re: No Power System

Postby Throttle » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:59 am

Brian wrote:Or better yet, please, please, please remove the guard command from the game. Rescue is fine, but guard is ridiculous. The idea that you'll automatically be able to intercept anyone attacking any particular person, especially if you're already engaged in combat with someone seems silly to me. I like the idea of rescue more as it is you making an effort to move away from your current opponent to interpose between two others, but the automatic nature of guard doesn't work. If I recall correctly, it was almost always instantly successful, which rescue is not either.


Yeah, I tried to get Kith to do that back in ARPI. Guard is just too good. If anything, I'd like to see it made to depend on some skill check -- actually I wanted it to be offense/prowess since it doesn't otherwise do very much, can't be twinked up, and is a useful general indicator of how good someone is at fighting.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Letters » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:03 am

Armageddon has a guard skill - prevent another from being able to engage someone in combat, also blocking exits and protecting containers - and a rescue skill, to get someone out of combat once they have been engaged. It seems to work out, though it's much harsher than RPI engine code.
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Re: No Power System

Postby cfelch » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:43 am

Most people think they are the bee's knees, or useless.
Addicts know they quit whenever they want.
Other know they will fail before they try.

Where do you draw the line between willpower and self-esteem?

This is the root of the issue, IMHO.
Even those of us who do try to RP the foibles in life want to do it well.

On the other hand....
Art is a very opinion oriented subject matter just because something is technically magnificent, doesn't mean it would be liked.


There is also the matter of exposure.
Someone who had never heard singing, much less opera, might be totally intimidated and awed the first time they hear it, even if sung by a novice.
But once a broader exposure is attained it may no longer be held in as high a regard.

If performance is determined by a die roll, it negates my interpretation almost to the point of forced emotes.

I guess i'll have to wait and see how it works under actual gameplay.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Letters » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:07 am

The Artistry skill on Atonement seemed to work out fine.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Octavius » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:26 pm

Hawkwind wrote:Why would presence have a bearing on a almost entirely roleplaying skill, music? Must there be a coded reason why we can/cannot play?


Zargen wrote:A coded reason for your screechy singing skills and deplorable lute playing skills is no different from the system in place with Parallel/Atonement. If your dexterity was terrible. Your ability to play the guitar was also terrible.


One of the major conversations we had in developing these attributes was whether it had enough things to impact outside of roleplay perceptions. Our answer to this is yes.

We DO have the existing artistry capabilities from ARPI. The addition of the Music skill separates music ability from crafting ability, which we decided IS important for our environment. (Every master craftsman should have Artistry; that doesn't make them Bards.) Music skill will replace the Dexterity check to echo the quality of your playing to a room.

In addition, Music will cover the ability to have a quality-enough take or song that the vNPCs pick it up and start retelling it - this skill set will allow access to special message boards which will allow players to help write the oral history of SOI itself. You really need to go read this thread, rather than commenting here: uggestion: Message Boards and Minstrels

Zargen wrote:And thanks for that link Octavius. Never saw it before! Small thought on how Presence effects rescue/retreat. Could it also be used to effect the success/failure rate of Guard?


Thanks! Finish discussing the implications of the Guard command, then we can give a recommendation to Nimrod.

cfelch wrote:Most people think they are the bee's knees, or useless.
Addicts know they quit whenever they want.
Other know they will fail before they try.

Where do you draw the line between willpower and self-esteem?


That line exists when reality interferes with perception. Just because you THINK you are the bees-knees doesn't mean you ARE the bees-knees. This applies to Willpower even more than Presence, and that has always been part of the code.

You can play as if you are a tough bravado. If you used Willpower as a dump stat, then when push comes to shove - you are injured and want to keep fighting, for example - the code is going to enforce that hard reality on you. That is what attributes are for... you need to make hard choices about what is really important to your character and accept that you are not perfect in all areas. Everyone has flaws. Whether you are weak-willed, clumsy-handed, have two left feet, or suffer from chronic ill-health is up to you.

This same logic will apply to Presence. Some people have a natural aptitude for being noticed and remembered and they can use it for good and for ill. If you are a forgettable individual, it will cap your ability to be a memorable stage performer as much as it does your ability to draw attention of enemies onto you to save your friends.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Zargen » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:32 pm

Okay great so I'm not the only one who thinks Guard should be removed entirely. Or at least drastically altered. I thought about mentioning round-robin guarding or SHIELD HORSES. But I didn't feel like hearing a round of boos from the peanut gallery.

I really like the way Armageddon handles it. Guard only works on the FIRST attack. As it should. Your bodyguard jumping in front of the crazed gunmen. If he fails, well. He has to rescue you now doesn't he?

Probably my main gripe with guard is it's "hit it and quit it" way of working. I only need to type guard bob once and then it handles itself automatically. I'd prefer the 'great, guarding him from the gobbo didnt work out to well and now its gnawing on his ears. RESCUERESCUERESCUE"

I think this means of handling it would probably make the most out of the Presence stat.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Octavius » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:35 pm

I don't know the history of this "horse problem."

If players were guarding their mounts, I consider that honorable roleplay.

If people were commanding their horses to guard THEM, then that's a valid criticism and I'll add an override on the mount races to help prevent that. (i.e. they ignore commands to 'guard')
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Re: No Power System

Postby Throttle » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:37 pm

command horse guard swarthy

But yeah, guard is simply too effective. If you guard someone, they're almost completely safe. If two or three people guard someone, they're effectively invulnerable to melee. I think maybe guard should be for missile attacks and be greatly enhanced by the use of a shield while rescue remains the thing to use in melee. I also wanted to make prowess (aka offense) do something for general gameplay, so if you make rescue check against any skill, I recommend using prowess. It's a surprisingly accurate measurement of how good someone is at fighting without having to discern between specific combat skills.
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Re: No Power System

Postby BoogtehWoog » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:11 pm

Octavius wrote:I don't know the history of this "horse problem."

If players were guarding their mounts, I consider that honorable roleplay.

If people were commanding their horses to guard THEM, then that's a valid criticism and I'll add an override on the mount races to help prevent that. (i.e. they ignore commands to 'guard')


Yeah, it was a major issue back during old SOI. Very silly and heavily discouraged; however, people still did it because they could.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Evilone » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:49 pm

ARM's guard code works wonderful IMO. I really can't remember it in SoI...
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Re: No Power System

Postby Matt » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:35 pm

There was a player that not only ordered their mount to guard them they ordered multiple peoples horses to do so. To save themself.
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Re: No Power System

Postby BoogtehWoog » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:07 pm

Matt wrote:There was a player that not only ordered their mount to guard them they ordered multiple peoples horses to do so. To save themself.


Honestly, the NPC situation spiraled out of control towards the end of old SOI. People were abusing them heavily and it became a significant headache for all involved.

Perhaps a thread should be created for this specific topic.
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Re: No Power System

Postby Emilio » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:06 am

Matt wrote:There was a player that not only ordered their mount to guard them they ordered multiple peoples horses to do so. To save themself.


What a bunch of cowards! If my living depends on my horse, I would cherish it more than my life because losing it, it would mean a deepest heartache.
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Re: No Power System

Postby hargond » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:30 am

The most important thing is: Power is dead. Never liked the system; frankly, I thought it was extremely biased and unbalanced.
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Re: No Power System

Postby BoogtehWoog » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:34 am

Indeed, sir! A round of grog for all.
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Re: No Power System

Postby cfelch » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:49 pm

Arguably a well trained warhorse could easily act as a guard, and even an aggressor.
They have mean kicks when the aren't shod or have the weight of full barding behind them.
And they are quite a large 'meat shield' as it were.
And, while yes there could be some heartache if you had formed a bond with your mount, it shouldn't be insurmountable. People bond with their livestock as well, but still butcher them. Its a harsh life.

Also, the command command is not always about malicious intent of the character (the player perhaps). But often is used to convey that the NPC might have its own motives.

Horses are herd animals and will defend their own, even if they are mistakenly considering humans as their own.

I see it more as a permissions issue, person x should not have had the authority (clanning), nay the trust of the horses, to get them all to circle around him like he was a foal.
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