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Orc Play!

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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Khamul » Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:28 pm

As a note, while there were a few people who ignored the RoE on both sides and there were people who went above and beyond the call of RP on both sides, I feel that the fact there has, for a great deal of the time, been a straight-out ban on the Battalions taking orcs as prisoners has likely been highly detrimental to Orcish people who don't like being executed while unconscious. Unfortunately, this isn't really a ban that it makes sense to get rid of from an IC perspective... even more so than people in general, orcs are well-known for trying to say anything that will get them out safely, whether it's true or not, and while there's always a chance that you can convert people to your side (I mean, look at the goblin-town song; willing or not, there are people working for orcs), humanity doesn't really seem likely to go enslaving orcs, and any orc that is let loose is just going to go back to its same old ways. (Tolkien, if I recall, said that any orc who sought redemption might be able to obtain it, but that it was in the nature of orcs that not one would ever do so).

Does anyone have any suggestions for this?
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Kayube » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:00 pm

Utterby and Laketown's fighting forces will have different rules than the Battalions, won't they? That plus the large time gap between the old game and the new one mean it could be perfectly reasonable for that rule not to exist.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Throttle » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:32 pm

I think all it would take is a confirmation prompt when attacking an unconscious PC. A lot of PvP deaths happen because there's just so much spam and chaos that someone types 'kill scarred' and happens to get some mortally wounded guy.

If you get a warning and a prompt to type 'kill dude !' in order to confirm finishing off a PC, like you do when attacking a group member, not only would you rule out accidental deaths but probably also discourage anyone from being a dick and finishing people off while the battle is still going on because they'll have just shown everybody that they deliberately went out of their way to needlessly kill a PC.

People used to ignore it because there was no way of knowing if it was intentional, but that can be changed. I have a lot more faith in things like that than in intangible rules that people are supposed to follow despite the fact that they'd benefit from breaking them. Code needs to govern itself.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Octavius » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:01 pm

Kayube wrote:Utterby and Laketown's fighting forces will have different rules than the Battalions, won't they? That plus the large time gap between the old game and the new one mean it could be perfectly reasonable for that rule not to exist.


There is no IC relationship between the Battalions and now. Khamul is posing a question based on the nature of Tolkien's world, which is fair.

From The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, specifically the chapter The Shadow of the Past, in which Gandalf responds to Frodo’s statement that Gollum is an enemy who deserves death:

Deserves it? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it.


Mercy is a moral virtue for the forces of good to aspire to, and central to the story.

As a roleplay-intensive, Tolkien-themed game, I expect that individual characters will, and should, struggle with this. If I were looking for good RP on the server, it would be a hallmark.

I am dissapointed to hear that the Battalions gave that order and it was routinely followed. "Following orders" is an easy answer, and as each player struggled internally, I would have liked to hear that it came out in their play accordingly.

In any case, this is a different environment. The orcs are not a battle force here to destroy a Kingdom and the humans are not under the strict authority of military command. They are neighbors struggling to wrest resources from the same tortured, evil forest. Sure, they are still hated and hateful neighbors and each side will have grudges to bear, but it is a fundamental difference.

I look forward to seeing this struggle on the emotes, thinks, and choices of characters, not on the forums.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Throttle » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:59 pm

Why would Gondor be taking orcs captive? Not that I ever heard of any such orders in my four months with the Batts during the Caolafon/Spire times - nor would it have been terribly relevant since Gondor lost very nearly every Ithilien encounter during that period - but it would seem against the nature of the setting for humans to be sparing the lives of orcs and bringing them home for imprisonment or whatever. It's the Mordor side that has an incentive to take slaves (which I can only recall happening a single time since the closing of Minas Morgul, by the way).
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby BoogtehWoog » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:47 pm

People have to understand that there wasn't much in the way of 'grey' in the battle between free peoples of Middle-Earth and Orcs. Orcs are unholy perversions that are wholly evil. They aren't redeemable at all. They would not be held as captives. They would be slaughtered and it would not be wrong to do so. There would be no moral dilemmas.

Gollum was a unique case in that he was a Hobbit that was corrupted by the Ring. Orcs are just evil. I don't think a single moment should be spared by any good people in Middle Earth over the death of an Orc.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:58 pm

Thinking about the inherent evil of orcs and the like got me then thinking about orcish culture and spiritualism outside of being dominated by grimdark malign entities(Morgoth, sauron/necromancer, witchking, khagdu, burzlabooblydoothespiderqueen so on so forth). Like in this case of the small orcish tribe we will be playing as. What drives us? What stories and traditions do orcs have when left to their own devices for an extended period of time? I figure in open when we're under the thrall of the Necromancer it wont matter as much. But its still something to think about.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:30 am

We took so so many slaves in tur edendor but only two of them choose to remain slaves that I recall and one was sold back for like 20000 coin. But I really don't see organization in this setting taking slaves. Plenty of reasons for prisoners but I don't think their stay would be anything but short term.

Side note.... can we get blind folds to blind people? Just in case I want to drag a tark to the cave and let him go after a little visit.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Emilio » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:35 am

Well, you can blame the code because when someone dies, his body turns into a corpse so it's easy to know who's dead or not. Otherwise, an unconscious person or someone feigning death may survive and slip away when the combatants left the area.

In old times, none would check if someone's heart is still beating or breathing specially in massive battles. The fight would go on with whoever is still standing leaving the unmoving bodies alone when they could be only wounded and unconscious among the dead.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Brian » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:26 am

Zargen wrote:Thinking about the inherent evil of orcs and the like got me then thinking about orcish culture and spiritualism outside of being dominated by grimdark malign entities(Morgoth, sauron/necromancer, witchking, khagdu, burzlabooblydoothespiderqueen so on so forth). Like in this case of the small orcish tribe we will be playing as. What drives us? What stories and traditions do orcs have when left to their own devices for an extended period of time? I figure in open when we're under the thrall of the Necromancer it wont matter as much. But its still something to think about.


Great post here Zargen. I recall a quote from the books (can't remember exactly where for the life of me) about the inherent nature of orcs, and their only being pushed to accomplish anything when there's a strong will like Sauron's or the Necromancer's dominating them. At this point in the history, I wonder how much the Necromancer is exerting on trying to move his pawns around. In my mind it's still very early for him to be concentrating on every little group of pawns, I'd figure he's still very much in the planning stage. So, if these orcs aren't being dominated by a Nazgul, what is motivating their actions? I think this will be largely up to individuals, but I think it's good to keep in mind.

I would think that if they aren't being whipped into anything, orcs would be pretty lazy, petty, and looking for providing their own comfort with the least effort possible, while also trying to indulge their own whims and pleasures without any eye towards the grand scheme of things. No building up strength for a great conquest or battle ahead, but more like the trolls in the hobbit, who wanted to get their food, hoard their riches, but weren't planning to sack any towns or anything.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:14 am

Exactly. Without some overriding force orcs would be petty, self-serving and not terribly interested about what the future holds. Just what problems they have to deal with -now-. Also interested in seeing how orcish tribal leadersbip is going to be set up. Will there be an NPC "big boss" orc or will it be a less formal structure where what ever PC manages to get the most voices behind them being the leader(for the moment) politiking among the players shouls prove interesting since most of the active players in this thread have been orc leaders at one point or anotherm
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Nimrod » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:36 am

Zargen wrote:Exactly. Without some overriding force orcs would be petty, self-serving and not terribly interested about what the future holds. Just what problems they have to deal with -now-. Also interested in seeing how orcish tribal leadersbip is going to be set up. Will there be an NPC "big boss" orc or will it be a less formal structure where what ever PC manages to get the most voices behind them being the leader(for the moment) politiking among the players shouls prove interesting since most of the active players in this thread have been orc leaders at one point or anotherm


The structure of leadership has been much discussed by staff and yes, there will be some form of npc leadership to get the ball rolling. I'm not going to get into all the specifics, but there will be motivation for orcs to do things. There will also be motivation, and staff support and encouragement, for player leadership among the clan.

The first few months of orc roleplay in Alpha is going to be extremely interesting. We're going to provide plenty of opportunities for politicking, establishing a pecking order and general mayhem. Might, indeed, makes right when talking about orcs.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:12 am

That NPC leader better be a good one... or orcs will be orcs haha.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:24 am

That NPC orc leader better have huge friggin pauldrons. Otherwise I cant take him seriously as a leader.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Hawkwind » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:44 pm

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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Lungorthin » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:24 pm

I'm excited about the caliber of the player's we have gearing up for orc play. I opened an Egthela thread in the Green Dragon if you wish to continue the momentum there with any fond memories.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Matt » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:39 pm

Lungorthin wrote:I'm excited about the caliber of the player's we have gearing up for orc play. I opened an Egthela thread in the Green Dragon if you wish to continue the momentum there with any fond memories.


I know of several other top-notch players that are coming back orc that aren't vocal as well. I think it's going to rock.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby toofast » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Matt wrote: or orcs will be orcs haha.


This. Haha, I'm ready to roll an orc.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Nimrod » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:01 pm

All this talk about death has got me thinking about how I wanted to handle death messges in the past. I always thought it would be slick to not actually let people see that their opponent was actually dead. Rather the character would fall to the ground and 'appear' dead, but actually would be alive. i.e. unconscious characters should appear exactly as a dead char, imho. Unless you examine an unconscious orc amid the gore of battle, you don't really have the ability to determine that they're actually dead.

Of course you'd end up with the winning side going around and examining each corpse and dispatching the ones that were alive, or just beheading them all. But in a perfect world this would be kind of fun.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Dero » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:45 pm

Honestly that is the way old battles were. People wouldn't always die from the stab wound to the stomach, they would slowly bleed out in the battlefield. This is also how prisoners were taken at times. Hey, he's not dead... patch him up and take him prisoner! I think it would be great as an Orc to take prisoners in this way on occasion or at least walk around and check to make sure people are dead.

But yeah, this is one of those perfect world sort of things. It would be nice to have a way to drop to the ground and play dead too!
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby tehkory » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:01 pm

"The downed body of a lithe, ebon-haired man."

Sounds nice, actually. You'd have to code it so that that status automatically makes NPCs(or maybe PCs, too?) no longer attack, but also requires PC intervention to recover from.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Dero » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:41 pm

tehkory wrote:"The downed body of a lithe, ebon-haired man."

Sounds nice, actually. You'd have to code it so that that status automatically makes NPCs(or maybe PCs, too?) no longer attack, but also requires PC intervention to recover from.


Only downside with that is how broken that could be against NPCs. Just thought of that. It could be abused.
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Zargen » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:59 am

Or better yet, just cutting it down short and sweet and ambiguous with "The body of a greasy, flabby orc"
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby toofast » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:37 pm

I think with some endurance checks and a few IG hours of being unconscious, someone should be able to stumble away from a battlefield after falling in combat and somehow not getting trampled/eaten by orcs, or getting a sword in the gut.

On top of that, I think if someone goes 'kill body' it should echo something like 'You smash/stab/thrust your mace/sword/spear into <body>, with no death echo and the command only delivering one blow. So a really buff, high endurance char can even survive getting bashed in uncon state. This is assuming the attackers aren't smart enough to check their pulse.

So many possibilities!
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Re: Orc Play!

Postby Khamul » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:47 pm

Rasputin, anyone? :twisted:
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